Campaign To Ban Trophy Hunting Simplistic & Inaccurate

Pheroze

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Science article here: https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cobi.13605


Screen Shot 2021-01-23 at 12.35.16 PM.png
 
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WilhelmM

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I think we need to make a distinction between animal welfare groups and animal rights activists. The animal welfare groups only campaign for the more humane treatment of animals, specifically pets as well as sustainable use of wildlife resources. Animal rights activists don't care whether a dog was brutally beaten or whether a rare black rhino was killed, they just want to end the co-existence of animals and humans period.

The root cause for why they'd want to end any use of animals by humans is unclear. They don't seem to be doing it for any reason other than they like telling others how to live their lives. I know it may seem unlikely but there are far more hunters than there are animal rights activists. It's just that animal rights activists tend to be far more wealthy and have political power so they're obviously going to be listened to more.
 

Roseman

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Arguing that there are specific types of hunting that would insure the health of the overall biome in question will fall on deaf ears because they are not actually concerned with a species overall survival.
They just want to end the hunting, period.
 

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I think we need to make a distinction between animal welfare groups and animal rights activists. The animal welfare groups only campaign for the more humane treatment of animals, specifically pets as well as sustainable use of wildlife resources. Animal rights activists don't care whether a dog was brutally beaten or whether a rare black rhino was killed, they just want to end the co-existence of animals and humans period.

The root cause for why they'd want to end any use of animals by humans is unclear. They don't seem to be doing it for any reason other than they like telling others how to live their lives. I know it may seem unlikely but there are far more hunters than there are animal rights activists. It's just that animal rights activists tend to be far more wealthy and have political power so they're obviously going to be listened to more.
By your definition, tell me which animal welfare group (with significant influence) is not an animal rights group/anti-hunting. A group that says it’s not against hunting but is against hunting with dogs, against baiting, against trapping, no choice but to lump them all together.
 

WilhelmM

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By your definition, tell me which animal welfare group (with significant influence) is not an animal rights group/anti-hunting. A group that says it’s not against hunting but is against hunting with dogs, against baiting, against trapping, no choice but to lump them all together.
WWF is one organization that comes to mind. Even if they're not particularly fond of hunting they still view it as a valuable source of income for conservation. Point is, there's a big difference between wanting animals to be treated ethically and not wanting animals to be used and interacted with in any way at all. That's literally what PETA and the Humane Society advocate for. They don't give a shit about whether a particular species goes extinct. As long as humans and animals don't coexist, they're happy.

Your comment came off as oddly confrontational but I guess that's what I've come to expect.
 

375Fox

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WWF is one organization that comes to mind. Even if they're not particularly fond of hunting they still view it as a valuable source of income for conservation. Point is, there's a big difference between wanting animals to be treated ethically and not wanting animals to be used and interacted with in any way at all. That's literally what PETA and the Humane Society advocate for. They don't give a shit about whether a particular species goes extinct. As long as humans and animals don't coexist, they're happy.

Your comment came off as oddly confrontational but I guess that's what I've come to expect.
I don’t think WWF can be lumped into animal welfare or animal rights organization. I’d call it a big picture conservation group made up of non-hunters. There are similar groups made up of hunting members, although not as large. If you research animal welfare/animal rights groups in the United States, they are all anti-hunting. The United States is where most international hunters come from and where most funding is available, so it has the most influence (and same applies to Europe).

On your comment about being confrontational and your comments on other thread about hostility to new members. For someone who has only hunted birds, your topics range into a lot of areas that seem very out of place. If you were to go on a cull hunt or your first trophy hunt and post a report you would get much better responses. You’re one of the few on this forum who actually have that opportunity available to him at this time.
 

WilhelmM

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I don’t think WWF can be lumped into animal welfare or animal rights organization. I’d call it a big picture conservation group made up of non-hunters. There are similar groups made up of hunting members, although not as large. If you research animal welfare/animal rights groups in the United States, they are all anti-hunting. The United States is where most international hunters come from and where most funding is available, so it has the most influence (and same applies to Europe).

On your comment about being confrontational and your comments on other thread about hostility to new members. For someone who has only hunted birds, your topics range into a lot of areas that seem very out of place. If you were to go on a cull hunt or your first trophy hunt and post a report you would get much better responses. You’re one of the few on this forum who actually have that opportunity available to him at this time.
So if I don't have a kudu on my wall and make a post about it at this very moment then me commenting on other threads is apparently out of place? So much for the "greatest hunting forum" on earth. I'm actually trying to learn from people but apparently, nearly everyone here (with a few exceptions) is too much of a stubborn old fart to give a damn about newbies. If I sound annoyed it's because I am. Seriously, I didn't provoke you or anyone else here to warrant rude and stand-off-ish behaviour but I guess that's what you gents thrive off of. Believe it or not, I don't have money that I can just magically pull out my ass and go on an expedition in the Congo. All of the trips I plan to go on to take up a lot of time and effort so I'm sorry that I don't have a world record duiker hanging on my wall. Hunting is not about bragging rights, it's about the passion of the chase and the reward in the end. I shouldn't have to shoot a nice old eland or kudu bull to warrant respect. Even if a hunt was offered to me for free that wouldn't mean I could just hop in my car and harvest the animals by next week.

As for WWF not being an animal welfare group, fine, but for a well known and highly respected organization to acknowledge trophy hunting as a valuable conservation model is pretty significant. Again my point is that there's a difference between wanting animals to be treated ethically and not wanting them to be interacted with at all.
 

375Fox

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So if I don't have a kudu on my wall and make a post about it at this very moment then me commenting on other threads is apparently out of place? So much for the "greatest hunting forum" on earth. I'm actually trying to learn from people but apparently, nearly everyone here (with a few exceptions) is too much of a stubborn old fart to give a damn about newbies. If I sound annoyed it's because I am. Seriously, I didn't provoke you or anyone else here to warrant rude and stand-off-ish behaviour but I guess that's what you gents thrive off of. Believe it or not, I don't have money that I can just magically pull out my ass and go on an expedition in the Congo. All of the trips I plan to go on to take up a lot of time and effort so I'm sorry that I don't have a world record duiker hanging on my wall. Hunting is not about bragging rights, it's about the passion of the chase and the reward in the end. I shouldn't have to shoot a nice old eland or kudu bull to warrant respect. Even if a hunt was offered to me for free that wouldn't mean I could just hop in my car and harvest the animals by next week.

As for WWF not being an animal welfare group, fine, but for a well known and highly respected organization to acknowledge trophy hunting as a valuable conservation model is pretty significant. Again my point is that there's a difference between wanting animals to be treated ethically and not wanting them to be interacted with at all.
Making an effort to learn something yourself either by experience or research gets respect. From only hunting birds to starting posts about hunting elephants with specific outfitters and hunting Tanzania is a big jump and can come across as simply fishing for information that will never be put to any use. No need for a old eland or a big kudu. A very inexpensive first cull impala hunt would be a good start, then you could actually add your experience in your posts.
 

WilhelmM

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Making an effort to learn something yourself either by experience or research gets respect. From only hunting birds to starting posts about hunting elephants with specific outfitters and hunting Tanzania is a big jump and can come across as simply fishing for information that will never be put to any use. No need for a old eland or a big kudu. A very inexpensive first cull impala hunt would be a good start, then you could actually add your experience in your posts.
Yes, I'm well aware that going from shooting birds to elephants and what-not is a big step. You could say the same thing about how people earlier last year wanted to know how to hunt tigers lol. The point is I simply enjoy learning from other people that are experienced in hunting X animal or whatever. As for me apparently fishing for information, I guess I'm apologetic for wanting to learn more about the industry? Google is a shit place to try and search for outfitters. It took me years until I found out that free-range hunting was possible in Africa, not exaggerating. You were missing my point when I stated that "I had to hunt a nice kudu or eland". Even if I were only to go after cull impalas that wouldn't mean that I'd have the time to do it. Every time you see me make a comment or post that's me using up my free time. Luckily it's the weekend now so I'll be able to chat with people more.
 

Pheroze

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Yes, I'm well aware that going from shooting birds to elephants and what-not is a big step. You could say the same thing about how people earlier last year wanted to know how to hunt tigers lol. The point is I simply enjoy learning from other people that are experienced in hunting X animal or whatever. As for me apparently fishing for information, I guess I'm apologetic for wanting to learn more about the industry? Google is a shit place to try and search for outfitters. It took me years until I found out that free-range hunting was possible in Africa, not exaggerating. You were missing my point when I stated that "I had to hunt a nice kudu or eland". Even if I were only to go after cull impalas that wouldn't mean that I'd have the time to do it. Every time you see me make a comment or post that's me using up my free time. Luckily it's the weekend now so I'll be able to chat with people more.
There is so much experience in this website that it is a bit mind boggling. I hope you find a niche here and enjoy it. Sometimes stuff gets tense, especially with the written word. Have you shared any of your bird hunts with us? If so, I am sorry I missed it.
 

WilhelmM

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There is so much experience in this website that it is a bit mind boggling. I hope you find a niche here and enjoy it. Sometimes stuff gets tense, especially with the written word. Have you shared any of your bird hunts with us? If so, I am sorry I missed it.
Thank you, @Pheroze. I did share one or two pictures of one of my bird hunts a few weeks ago. If you’d like to view it search “A Good Day of Wingshooting.” I know it’s not the best report in the world but the actual hunt was a lot of fun. I’m hoping I’ll be able to find my place on the forum and grow from there. You are correct, the written word is often misleading.
 

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I tend to agree with the possibility of the written word being misleading. Actually, I feel misunderstood may be more accurate. My two cents, if I may, without offending anybody......
I didn't read what 375Fox had to say as being confrontational. I read it as him wanting clarification. If you've felt like you've been met with "rude and stand-off-ish behavior" then that's unfortunate. Nobody wants to be treated like that. And especially if you're coming in as a "newbie" and you're looking for information. I hope your experiences on here improve. I've found this site to be just the opposite. I've found most members to be courteous and friendly, and to openly share information and try to help other members. I've only had one bad experience with a guy being a jerk, and it was about something I said regarding shooting coyotes that he jumped to conclusions on and (mis)judged me for. But I won't let one bad apple spoil the lot!
I'd humbly ask you to give 375Fox (and others) the benefit of the doubt if you'd be so kind. If you feel someone is being rude towards you, maybe just ask for clarification. I'm not saying that nobody has been, I'm just asking you to not jump the gun and feel attacked, because it just snowballs as it did above.
For what it's worth, I understand what you were trying to say. I don't know that many people are aware that PETA doesn't even feel people should have pets! It's far more than just being anti-hunting, which I think is what you were trying to get across. As I said, I feel 375Fox was just looking for more information, and would venture to guess he didn't know that about PETA. That organization may do far more harm to animals than anyone! Let's get the information out there to to others and each other, and leave the bickering for someone else.
 
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I think we need to make a distinction between animal welfare groups and animal rights activists. The animal welfare groups only campaign for the more humane treatment of animals, specifically pets as well as sustainable use of wildlife resources. Animal rights activists don't care whether a dog was brutally beaten or whether a rare black rhino was killed, they just want to end the co-existence of animals and humans period.

The root cause for why they'd want to end any use of animals by humans is unclear. They don't seem to be doing it for any reason other than they like telling others how to live their lives. I know it may seem unlikely but there are far more hunters than there are animal rights activists. It's just that animal rights activists tend to be far more wealthy and have political power so they're obviously going to be listened to more.
@WilhelmM
They are also more vocal. In these days of PC bullshit we hunters are afraid of upsetting Joe public with our hunting stories instead of extolling the virtues and benefits of ethical hunting to anyone who will listen.
I talk to anyone about hunting and shooting related sports.
Bob
 
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So if I don't have a kudu on my wall and make a post about it at this very moment then me commenting on other threads is apparently out of place? So much for the "greatest hunting forum" on earth. I'm actually trying to learn from people but apparently, nearly everyone here (with a few exceptions) is too much of a stubborn old fart to give a damn about newbies. If I sound annoyed it's because I am. Seriously, I didn't provoke you or anyone else here to warrant rude and stand-off-ish behaviour but I guess that's what you gents thrive off of. Believe it or not, I don't have money that I can just magically pull out my ass and go on an expedition in the Congo. All of the trips I plan to go on to take up a lot of time and effort so I'm sorry that I don't have a world record duiker hanging on my wall. Hunting is not about bragging rights, it's about the passion of the chase and the reward in the end. I shouldn't have to shoot a nice old eland or kudu bull to warrant respect. Even if a hunt was offered to me for free that wouldn't mean I could just hop in my car and harvest the animals by next week.

As for WWF not being an animal welfare group, fine, but for a well known and highly respected organization to acknowledge trophy hunting as a valuable conservation model is pretty significant. Again my point is that there's a difference between wanting animals to be treated ethically and not wanting them to be interacted with at all.
@WilhelmM
I understand and agree that there are two different groups but what is happening here is totally out of place. We should not be bickering amongst ourselves.
It matters not if you hunt the biggest baddest game on earth or the humble rabbit it ground hog. We are all hunters and shooters in our own way and should be promoting our beautiful sport instead of having a go at each other.
Keep up the infighting and the animal libbers win
Bob
 

WilhelmM

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@WilhelmM
I understand and agree that there are two different groups but what is happening here is totally out of place. We should not be bickering amongst ourselves.
It matters not if you hunt the biggest baddest game on earth or the humble rabbit it ground hog. We are all hunters and shooters in our own way and should be promoting our beautiful sport instead of having a go at each other.
Keep up the infighting and the animal libbers win
Bob
Agreed. Apologies Bob and @375Fox. I think I may have just been a little too soft and needlessly took things personally.
 

norfolk shooter

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Pheroze

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norfolk shooter

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WilhelmM

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This is gold. https://countrysquire.co.uk/2021/01/20/the-rise-of-the-eco-greenshirts/

If you ask me I have a feeling the wheels are coming off this one. Its clear the head is just filling his own pockets and not actually saving any animals just like the other anti hunting groups.
The UK seems to have a mouth-frothing resentment towards anything outdoor or animal-related, that is if it's of consumptive use though they'd ban pets too if given the chance. This is incredibly ironic considering that just a century ago British officers went on expeditions in Kenya to shoot lions (sometimes entire prides) yet Britain's citizens had seemingly no problem with it what-so-ever. The British upper class will do literally anything to make sure its subjects stay put and don't pay attention to their own misdeeds. Conservation? Bullshit. It's money that they desire.
 

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@WilhelmM
I understand and agree that there are two different groups but what is happening here is totally out of place. We should not be bickering amongst ourselves.
It matters not if you hunt the biggest baddest game on earth or the humble rabbit it ground hog. We are all hunters and shooters in our own way and should be promoting our beautiful sport instead of having a go at each other.
Keep up the infighting and the animal libbers win
Bob
amen
 

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