270 win or 338 win mag

grand veneur said:
It may be possible to shoot Elk with weaker cartridges than that caliber 338 or 9,3mm. I have not shot enough of them to have a great experience in this matter. Nevertheless, one should not forget that the game species one intends to hunt should determine the choice of the rifle and the cartridge, and not the hunter's recoil tolerance. Anyone who has a problem with recoil should rather forgo hunting certain game species than get compromise on the choice of the rifle. This point is not so often mentioned in many forum discussions.
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@grand veneur
I still can't understand why people are magnum crazy and say you need bigger to get the job done.
In years fine by gandpappy killed a slew of elk with his 250-3000 Savage ( I'm not advocating it's use) and cartridges like the 270,30-06, 35rem and a lot of other so called under powered cartridges. Then along came the magnums in the late 50s and gun writers convinced us they where what we needed.
A lot of people still give their kids rifles in cartridge like the 6.5 sweede, 7mm Mauser,and dare I say it 243 and 6.5 Creedemore and these same kids are killing the same game daddy needs a big magnum for. Why because no one has told me these rifles won't work.
Projectiles and performance has come a long way yet we seem to have forgot our roots.

In Australia there are those that will say you need a 338, 375, 458 or 340 Weatherby to shoot our Sambar deer ( similar body size to elk).
I always ask why and get told you need to anchor them on the spot. I agree but they aren't armoi plated. The last one I shot was with a 270 loaded with a 130gn ACP ( Australian copper projectiles). That stag dropped like it had the legs knocked out from under him and never moved.
I personally believe my 444 Marlin loaded with 280gn RNSP at 2,400+ fps to be too much gun for them ( if there's such a thing as to much gun).
I wouldn't feel underfunded using my 25 ( similar to the 257 Weatherby) on then but in Victoria the legal minimum is 270.
These are only my opinions and others are free to think what they want.
Bob
 
BFaucett said:
In this thread, there seems to be some concern about the recoil level of the .338 Win Mag. Yeah, it will get your attention, especially when shooting from a bench, but it's manageable IMO. I think one just needs to practice with it as with any rifle and cartridge.

Below are some pics of my good friend Kate. Kate, her boyfriend David, and I went on our first plains game safari in the northern part of the Limpopo Province of South Africa way back in 2000. By the way, Kate is all of 5' 2" (1.57 m) in height. Her choice of cartridge? The .338 Winchester Magnum. :)

Kate's rifle: Ruger M77 Mk II .338 Win Mag (24" barrel)
Handload: 250 gr Nosler Partition at 2650 fps MV
(Velocity: 10-shot chronographed average rounded to the nearest 5 fps. I loaded the ammo.)


View attachment 759094

View attachment 759095

View attachment 759096

View attachment 759101
L to R: David, Kate, and me.


A couple of years after this trip, Kate went on a Houston Safari Club's "girl's trip" to Canada. She took a nice black bear with her .338 Win Mag using the same 250 gr Nosler Partition handload. Unfortunately, I don't have any pics on hand from that trip.

Just my ramblings and musings... Cheers! Bob F. :)
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@BFaucett
Connie Brookes ( from Barnes bullets) in only a small woman as well yet has no problem with a 460 Weatherby. Every one has a different tolerance to recoil. May mate is a stocky ( read fat) build of average height but the 223 is his upper limit.
Ti me it's not the foot pounds of recoil it's the fps of the recoil. My Whelen has similar recoil to the 338 and the 9.3X62 yet the 338 seems to come back a lot quicker and the 9.3 with that German hogsback stock is just brutal.. The 458 Lott in a Ruger No@ that I shot was far more pleasant than that 9.3 and @ Badboymelvins 425 with 360 grainers is far more pleasant than the 338 to me.
Recoil affects everyone differently.
Bob
 
I grew up shooting white tail deer with a shotgun - are goal was to put a remington green/ yellow box slug into a milk jug at 125 yards. If you could do that my dad felt you could hit a deer in that same range. I have seen white tail deer take a good chest hit with a slug and keep going I have also taken deer with a single well placed shot with the same type of slug that dropped right there. I dont understand the difference to this day. Hunting on my dads property we had all kinds of chances to hunt. Today I do not have my own land and or a private place to hunt - means I am competing with others in a area that many times has been hunted before I got there. If and when I see a elk I want to be able to take any shot as long as I feel that I can successfully take that game animal. An elk that I can legally take is not always easy to find and require a bit of pounding the ground. When I take a shot at an elk I want enought gun to take that shot from the angle I see him at. A magnum gives me that additional horse power and confidence. Maybe mental but it works for me. Having said that I like the 270 winchester and have condidence in it as a deer rifle. I own four of them. My two favorite deer cartridges are the 7x57 followed by 6.5x55 sweed.

I have nothing against the 35 whelen I just dont see it as the do it all end all. I would not have a problem hunting elk with one or any species of deer. I just dont see it as a replacement for a 338WM or a 358Norma, or even the 9.3x62. In my area just try finding a bullet over 250G- In the 20 some years I have had with the 35 Whelen I have never seen loaded ammunition with a bullet larger than 250G locally. Using bullets over 250G is a bit of stunt to me. Its good that people experiment its how we move forward in ballistics. I see it as a excellent cartridge that almost meets magnum specifications but doesnt quite get there. I see it as carttridge to be used inside of 300 yards and that covers alot of my hunting. Not looking for a fight but this how I view the 35 whelen.
 
jruby said:
I have never seen a 275g or 310g of 35 cal bullets in my life and am not even sure if my whelen would stabalze them. I cannot think of anything in North Americavthat requires more than a good 250g bullet. Maybe someday I might fund a need.
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@jruby
The 275 grainer is a PPSP
And the 310 is a RNSP.
The 310 solid is a lead core, steel outer and a gilding meat outer with a nice flat meplat instead of a round nose
Bob
20231213_180857.jpg
20231213_181253.jpg

A nice Woodleigh 310gn 35 cal steel core solid
Now you have seen one. At 2,400+ fps should be some serious bone smashing power for up close and personal.
Bob
 
jruby said:
I grew up shooting white tail deer with a shotgun - are goal was to put a remington green/ yellow box slug into a milk jug at 125 yards. If you could do that my dad felt you could hit a deer in that same range. I have seen white tail deer take a good chest hit with a slug and keep going I have also taken deer with a single well placed shot with the same type of slug that dropped right there. I dont understand the difference to this day. Hunting on my dads property we had all kinds of chances to hunt. Today I do not have my own land and or a private place to hunt - means I am competing with others in a area that many times has been hunted before I got there. If and when I see a elk I want to be able to take any shot as long as I feel that I can successfully take that game animal. An elk that I can legally take is not always easy to find and require a bit of pounding the ground. When I take a shot at an elk I want enought gun to take that shot from the angle I see him at. A magnum gives me that additional horse power and confidence. Maybe mental but it works for me. Having said that I like the 270 winchester and have condidence in it as a deer rifle. I own four of them. My two favorite deer cartridges are the 7x57 followed by 6.5x55 sweed.

I have nothing against the 35 whelen I just dont see it as the do it all end all. I would not have a problem hunting elk with one or any species of deer. I just dont see it as a replacement for a 338WM or a 358Norma, or even the 9.3x62. In my area just try finding a bullet over 250G- In the 20 some years I have had with the 35 Whelen I have never seen loaded ammunition with a bullet larger than 250G locally. Using bullets over 250G is a bit of stunt to me. Its good that people experiment its how we move forward in ballistics. I see it as a excellent cartridge that almost meets magnum specifications but doesnt quite get there. I see it as carttridge to be used inside of 300 yards and that covers alot of my hunting. Not looking for a fight but this how I view the 35 whelen.
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@jruby
Every animal is a law unti it's self and each will react differently to a similar shot.
Like you I have seen and shot animals in the same place with the same rifle and none have reacted the same. Even the humble bunny. I have head shot them with a 22lr and while the majority are flop over some have made it 29 yds to their warren to be picked up. Same shot placement. Depend on the animal.
You won't start a fight over the Whelen I respect everyones choice of calibers it's entirely personal.
Using bullets bigger than 250gn in the Whelen isn't a stunt. It's nice to know they are available and can be loaded to give good performance.
Personally I would have no problems taking water buffalo, cape Buffalo or bison using the Whelen loaded with 275s or 310s and having a good solid if needed.
You won't find commercial ammo over 250 unless buffat bore loads a 280gn swift A frame for the Whelen other wise it's a handloading proposition.
To each their own as long as they are happy and can use the rifle well. The only exception being the 243, it a horrible little cartridge.
Bob
 
I still believe it that on a once in a lifetime hunt or an every season hunt if you can shoot the 270 better than the 338 then I’d go with that rifle cuz your gonna put a 140-150 gr round through the lungs or heart of a big bull or a mule deer there going to die shoot him till he goes down just cuz you use a bigger bullet don’t mean they go down on one shot either they can still run. I’d practice at all the distances you reckon your gonna shoot use a good bullet and place them well regardless of what caliber you pick. Nonetheless the gun is with you more than one season get the one you figure you will hunt with beyond this one time hunt.
 
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A perpetual debate exists between proponents of using high-performance larger caliber cartridges, so-called Magnum cartridges, and those who oppose them.

Ultimately, I can only speak from my personal hunting experience worldwide over 40 years, which has clearly demonstrated that the so-called Magnum cartridges offer significant external and terminal ballistic advantages compared to other cartridges. This opinion was also shared by the majority of other hunters I met in extreme terrain, such as the high mountains of Central Asia for example. It was extremely rare to find a hunter using a standard cartridge there. Certainly, the main challenges remain to use suitable rifles for such cartridges and, in particular, mastering them to achieve accurate shooting, also at longer range.
 
In my opinion it’s best to use 7mm and up for elk. In your case the 338 Winchester would be more than suitable. You are likely to take shots at distance hunting elk with a rifle, mine last year was taken at 519 yards.
 
Wyit76 said:
A fact that many folks seem to be either forgetting or neglecting is how elk in the western US are hunted. It seems the majority of the comments are going off plains game experience or African experience in general. I do not have the African experience to pull from but I have chased and taken more elk and mule deer at this point than many guys will in a lifetime. The style of hunting is not the same, the shooting positions are not the same, and recoil is not managed the same. In all my years hunting out west I have not taken an animal from a tripod and can count on 1 hand the number of off hand shots I have taken. By far the most common position shot from out west in prone either from a bipod or a backpack and seated from a backpack. These are not positions that lend well to high recoiling rifles producing rapid follow up shots.

Elk have a tendency to be over dramatized about how tough they are, do not underestimate them but they absolutely are not bullet proof. I have seen several absorbe shots like bee stings with hard hitting 30 caliber rifles. I have also seen 6.5mm rifles flatten them like they were struck by lightning. This being said I have seen mule deer act the same way! Take my advice for what you will, I do not guide but I do take my fair share of western big game and have friends and family who do as well. The experience pool I draw from is not the end all be all but it is a rather large pool. I personally know 3 people who regularly hunt with a 338, 2 rem mags and 1 ultra mag, I know between 25 and 50 who hunt with a 270. 3 of the best and most consistent elk hunters I have ever met take dandy bulls and a cow each every single year with the 270.
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Your experience and conclusions from it mirror mine.

An elk’s chest is not that deep, looking broadside, even on a large bull. Wait for a broadside or close to it shot and most any deer capable cartridge and bullet will work well. Want a little more shot angle flexibility, use a stouter and/or heavier bullet.

The key is placing your first shot correctly. You do that and they are easy to kill. Wound one and all bets are off as they are likely to go a long ways. That applies equally to 270 Win class and 338 WM class cartridges in my experience.
 
Mnwhiskeyman said:
Hi guys
I asked before and settled on the 270 win mag Winchester model 70 but now I see they have a 338 win mag Alaskan for sale and available which one would you take for a western Montana elk and mule hunt? They both are fine rifles for a once and a life time hunt
Thanks
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Just bought a Mossberg Patriot 270 Win. I can wait for it to arrive and to test it out on South African plains game.

I currently use a Ruger M77 MK2 synthetic stock for frequent hunting. But with age that mule like recoil is getting a bit out of hand (no pun intended). Ill let you know how it goes
 
I am leaning towards just getting the Winchester Alaskan in 338 win mag or 375 h and h. I had over 30 years with the 338 win mag in the Ruger but I would like a newer rifle with a free floated barrel and a new scope. If anyone wants to talk let me know out of it let me know ha ha
I am looking forward to the hunt I will take video and pictures as much as I can.
 
Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:
@BFaucett
Connie Brookes ( from Barnes bullets) in only a small woman as well yet has no problem with a 460 Weatherby. Every one has a different tolerance to recoil. May mate is a stocky ( read fat) build of average height but the 223 is his upper limit.
Ti me it's not the foot pounds of recoil it's the fps of the recoil. My Whelen has similar recoil to the 338 and the 9.3X62 yet the 338 seems to come back a lot quicker and the 9.3 with that German hogsback stock is just brutal.. The 458 Lott in a Ruger No@ that I shot was far more pleasant than that 9.3 and @ Badboymelvins 425 with 360 grainers is far more pleasant than the 338 to me.
Recoil affects everyone differently.
Bob
Click to expand...
Interesting comments, Bob! I think one thing people often overlook when considering recoil is velocity of recoil, in addition to foot pounds of recoil. I’ve previously described the benefits of foam filled fiberglass stock like Brown Precision or McMillan, so won’t re-hash that here. Instead, let’s look at the published recoil in foot-pounds as well as feet per second of a few cartridges you mention in your post as well as a few other popular ones. I’m going to list in order as follows:
Cartridge, free recoil energy, recoil velocity
30-06, 21.34, 12.55
.300 Win Mag, 29.99, 14.38
.35 Whelen, 27.14, 13.02
.338 Win Mag, 29.9, 13.75
9.3x62, 30.72, 13.82
.375 H&H, 38.28, 15.39
.416 Rem Mag., 50.46, 17.18
.416 Rigby, 52.49, 17.52
.458 Win Mag., 55.57, 17.95
.458 Lott, 70.4, 21.3.

Source, Jim Harmer, Backfire.tv. .458 Lott from Sportsman’s Warehouse.

I find it interesting that the .300 Win Mag has a bit more recoil than either the .338 Win Mag or .36 Whelen. I’ve always believed my .300 kicked more than my .338 and this confirms that.
 
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30-06. I shot thirteen elk with my Springfield including two in one shot. Not desired but I'd already hit the bull and had to finish him. Didn't see the cow right behind him but it probably would not have made a difference. It was just before dark and snow disappearing fast. I had to put him down. Less than a hundred yards and a 180 gr Hornady cup-and-core bullet killed them both. I agree 270 might be a bit light but probably okay with modern technology bullets. I have shot 338 and don't care for the recoil. It was a light rifle.
 
DLSJR said:
Interesting comments, Bob! I think one thing people often overlook when considering recoil is velocity of recoil, in addition to foot pounds of recoil. I’ve previously described the benefits of foam filled fiberglass stock like Brown Precision or McMillan, so won’t re-hash that here. Instead, let’s look at the published recoil in foot-pounds as well as feet per second of a few cartridges you mention in your post as well as a few other popular ones. I’m going to list in order as follows:
Cartridge, free recoil energy, recoil velocity
30-06, 21.34, 12.55
.300 Win Mag, 29.99, 14.38
.35 Whelen, 27.14, 13.02
.338 Win Mag, 29.9, 13.75
9.3x62, 30.72, 13.82
.375 H&H, 38.28, 15.39
.416 Rem Mag., 50.46, 17.18
.416 Rigby, 52.49, 17.52
.458 Win Mag., 55.57, 17.95
.458 Lott, 70.4, 21.3.

Source, Jim Harmer, Backfire.tv. .458 Lott from Sportsman’s Warehouse.

I find it interesting that the .300 Win Mag has a bit more recoil than either the .338 Win Mag or .36 Whelen. I’ve always believed my .300 kicked more than my .338 and this confirms that.
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Well, the weight of bullet (among other factors) can make a difference in recoil between 300 WM and 338. The assumption is 338 would be heavier bullet but not necessarily.
 
Ontario Hunter said:
Well, the weight of bullet (among other factors) can make a difference in recoil between 300 WM and 338. The assumption is 338 would be heavier bullet but not necessarily.
Click to expand...
In the reference I used the author lists bullet weights of 205 in .300 Win, 256 in .338 Win and 225 in .35 Whelen.

Anyone can find this data at backfire.tv.
 
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