416 Strausse, 416-03, or 416-303BR

teklanika_ray said:

One pattern was a higher fail rate in brass that was not initially annealed.

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Annealing is key to forming brass and minimising splits. I made up an induction annealing machine out of bits bought of Aliexpress for less than $150. It is worth its weight in gold.
Fully understand why you have based your cartridge on the 303 case given yoyu are using a P14 action, althought you may need to do something to accomodate the larger diameter projectile at the front of the magazine. You have your reamer now, but it would have been interesting to go down the Epps path with an improved profile to the chamber.
I have gone down a similar slippery slope but based on the 348W case. 416/348 AI in a Matrini Enfield. After I chambered a 416WSM and the 416/348AI using the same reamer. I have had the reamer reground by PTG to 338/348AI for another project on a Siamese Mauser action.
Very happy to see other prepared to experiment.

teklanika_ray said:

What I am most interested in is reloading data. A starting point!

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Since there is so little information available on this particular wildcat, I think you may be on your own & starting from scratch. If anyone developed anything, as far as I can tell, they weren't big on sharing the knowledge.

As an FYI, I would like to add the disclaimer that I have never developed a wildcat. It's something I've been curious about simply because I enjoy shooting but I want to be clear that any "suggestions" I might offer are based on possibly faulty intuition & not years of actual experience.

The original drawing for the 416 Strauss that I had seen had a case that was 2.215" / 56.2mm. Earlier in this post, I think you said your cases were 2.165" / 55mm. The single article about this wildcat said that the developers were getting results of 300gr @ 2,500 fps & 350gr @ 2,300 fps using a South African magnum pistol powder, Somchem S265. Why this powder was chosen is not explained so it's unknown if this was an informed choice or based on some kind of personal preference. But the results are promising if they're accurate.

Looking around for similar powders over here, a quick AI-based query (which might be as unreliable as me) gives a few suggestions:


Looking at a burn rate chart seems to verify that these powders are close to S265 when sorted by that characteristic:



So the next step I took was trying to identify a similar sized case, that shoots similar weight bullets that has posted loads for the above powders. One that looked promising is the straight-wall 444 Marlin with a 2.225" / 56.5mm case shooting a .429 bullet that weighs 300gr. The speed is lower by several hundred fps (possibly because it was intended to be shot out of a lever action) but it might be a good load to work up from if you can find one that doesn't already have a really high fill volume. I will let more knowledgeable posters weigh in on whether this is a good idea or not.

odonata said:

Since there is so little information available on this particular wildcat, I think you may be on your own & starting from scratch. If anyone developed anything, as far as I can tell, they weren't big on sharing the knowledge.

As an FYI, I would like to add the disclaimer that I have never developed a wildcat. It's something I've been curious about simply because I enjoy shooting but I want to be clear that any "suggestions" I might offer are based on possibly faulty intuition & not years of actual experience.

The original drawing for the 416 Strauss that I had seen had a case that was 2.215" / 56.2mm. Earlier in this post, I think you said your cases were 2.165" / 55mm. The single article about this wildcat said that the developers were getting results of 300gr @ 2,500 fps & 350gr @ 2,300 fps using a South African magnum pistol powder, Somchem S265. Why this powder was chosen is not explained so it's unknown if this was an informed choice or based on some kind of personal preference. But the results are promising if they're accurate.

Looking around for similar powders over here, a quick AI-based query (which might be as unreliable as me) gives a few suggestions:

View attachment 732379
Looking at a burn rate chart seems to verify that these powders are close to S265 when sorted by that characteristic:

View attachment 732380

So the next step I took was trying to identify a similar sized case, that shoots similar weight bullets that has posted loads for the above powders. One that looked promising is the straight-wall 444 Marlin with a 2.225" / 56.5mm case shooting a .429 bullet that weighs 300gr. The speed is lower by several hundred fps (possibly because it was intended to be shot out of a lever action) but it might be a good load to work up from if you can find one that doesn't already have a really high fill volume. I will let more knowledgeable posters weigh in on whether this is a good idea or not.

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@odonata
My best load on a strong action for a 444 marlin gave me 2,400 fps with a 280gn Woodleigh rnsp. I could have gone higher but couldn't get any more if the powder I was using in the case
Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@odonata
My best load on a strong action for a 444 marlin gave me 2,400 fps with a 280gn Woodleigh rnsp. I could have gone higher but couldn't get any more if the powder I was using in the case
Bob

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What powder were you using Bob?

Ray H

teklanika_ray said:

What powder were you using Bob?

Ray H

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@teklanika_ray
Adi 2219/H322.
I won't give you the exact load on an open forum as it would not be safe in the marlin.
Suffice to say I couldn't get much more in the case and still seat the bullet.
This load was only for use in a SMLE No4 action
It used to drop Sambar deer in their tracks with a good chest shot and leave a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow
Bob

teklanika_ray said:

Ok, I have decided to chase unicorns!!

I am developing a .416 cartridge of my own, but as a matter of research I stumbled onto the 416 Strauss.

View attachment 731802

I decided to order a reamer from Manson's and a barrel from PacNor, and I have decided to build a 416 Strauss myself for some research. I am using an Enfield P14 action to build the rifle. I ordered a set of expanders and die from Manson's to expand the 303 British brass up to .416 caliber, and when the barrel and reamers are returned. I will send the reamer to Pacific Tool and Guage to have custom reloading dies made. I have already prepared 200 pieces of brass for reloading.

View attachment 731801

The only information on the 416 Strausse is all based on a single magazine article. There are numerous internet articles, but they all reference the same article.

I am looking for any assistance for reloading data, or any history available on the 416 Strausse.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Ray H

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Hi Ray, Should reach out to Anthony George of NT Firearms here in Australia. He has built one.

richteb said:

Hi Ray, Should reach out to Anthony George of NT Firearms here in Australia. He has built one.

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That is awesome news, I will try and look him up.

Thank you very much.

Ray H

richteb said:

Hi Ray, Should reach out to Anthony George of NT Firearms here in Australia. He has built one.

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You beat me to it.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@odonata
My best load on a strong action for a 444 marlin gave me 2,400 fps with a 280gn Woodleigh rnsp. I could have gone higher but couldn't get any more if the powder I was using in the case
Bob

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Using the value of 300gr @ 2,500 fps from the original article, Bob's result is promisingly close to that target goal. The fact that he ran out of powder space was the primary concern that I had when I suggested the 444 Marlin as a comparable cartridge to use as a baseline for 416 Strauss load development.

Looking at the 444 Marlin reloading data on the Hodgdon website & the earlier burn chart I posted shows that H4198 produces slightly faster speeds at slightly lower pressure using 5.5 grains less powder than Bob's H322. The fact that Hodgdon specifically mentions it as optimal for the 444 Marlin & it has an almost identical burn rate to the original S265 doesn't hurt either. Depending on how well it packs volume-wise might make it a good candidate for a powder load that a few more grains could be added to in an effort to replicate the original velocities.

I dont know if anyone was following this build, but summer is over. I started back to messing around with my builds again. Today I headspaced the barrel again with a better bolt and cleaned up an old P14 stock then fitted the action into it. The cock on open still needs some fitting, but after that mechanically it should fire. Im going to start with some 5744 powder at 40% capasity or some trail boss. After that I'll actually do some work on working up some loads for it.

Ray H

teklanika_ray said:

I dont know if anyone was following this build, but summer is over. I started back to messing around with my builds again. Today I headspaced the barrel again with a better bolt and cleaned up an old P14 stock then fitted the action into it. The cock on open still needs some fitting, but after that mechanically it should fire. Im going to start with some 5744 powder at 40% capasity or some trail boss. After that I'll actually do some work on working up some loads for it.

Ray H

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Yes I think more than a few following, I to was thinking on the same cartridge but went with a .410 either stay with the .400 Brit or punch out to .405Win

I opened up several hundred 303's for this project, I worked with the engineer at CH4D and they made me an expander set. It took 3 expanders and annealing between each, but I stopped splitting brass after that.

Ken Howell’s book has a 416/30’06 Rimmed which is made from the 400-350 Rigby case.
No idea why one would start with that case.
The 350 case is very similar to the 9.3X74R and the 400-360NE.
I always thought the best way to a 30’06 Rimmed was to use 7X65R brass so it would stand to reason that the 416/30’06R could be made from that as well but of course staring with a 9.3mm would mean less opening up.

Why not something like the 40-70 Sharps Bottleneck? It’s easy enough to form brass from 45-90 cases, and that’s both cheap and plentiful.

analog_peninsula said:

Why not something like the 40-70 Sharps Bottleneck? It’s easy enough to form brass from 45-90 cases, and that’s both cheap and plentiful.

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I am working on a wildcat based on the 9.3x74r (which is very simular to the 416 strausse, so...tomatoes vs tomatoes in this situation), and I enjoy the challenge. I just wanted to see if it is possible. All indicators are, yes. 100 %, I am now interested in the ballistics.

teklanika_ray said:

I dont know if anyone was following this build, but summer is over. I started back to messing around with my builds again.

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Tinkering with my rifles has always been a winter pastime as I like to have things to keep me busy when it's cold & dreary outside. I'm watching this particular project with much interest especially since I have what could potentially be a good donor rifle for something similar.


My Uberti in 303 British with the optional iron sights only rib

I retired in September so I have more free time but my rifles are in storage back in Arkansas. I'm still hanging out in Virginia as I make the transition from work to leisure. The novelty of having every day be Saturday has not worn off at all.


Escorting the tall ships into Norfolk for Sail250 with my daughter