skydiver386
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Is the 500 Jeffery really superior to the 458 Lott in stopping power?
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BTP-KennethWRoyce
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The .500s have enormous Shock Power, but at the expense of some Penetration vs. the perfectly adequate and well balanced .458 Lott. It's probably not a trade-off I'd personally make for the cost of such a new and specialized gun, but, hey, courses for horses!
In Jeff Cooper's DVC formula, a balance must be struck between Power and Speed. (An imbalance of Power degrades Speed, and then Accuracy.) In the world of defensive handguns, the controlled pair difference in speed is only half an eyeblink between 9mm and .40 (which I believe worth the extra .05 seconds for 25% more KE). Spend a full eyeblink and you can fight with a 10mm over a 9mm.
There's always a larger caliber. The trick is knowing when it's OK to stop along the way.
For me on buff, a .416/400gr/2400fps or .458/500gr/2300fps is "enough gun".
I'm comfortable stopping there. You're comfortable for your own reasons stopping with the .458 Win.
We've both made our respective cases, and, to be honest, it's a rather close call, anyway.
Conversely, the argument can be made that the .450 Rigby's additional 300+fps with the same 500gr bullet requires fewer follow-up shots than the .458 Win. Its extra recovery time (what? -- .10 second, or 4.4' of more closing for a 30mph animal?) would seem to only really matter during a charge, but would the animal be charging at all with the Rigby? This can be endlessly pondered and debated.
In Jeff Cooper's DVC formula, a balance must be struck between Power and Speed. (An imbalance of Power degrades Speed, and then Accuracy.) In the world of defensive handguns, the controlled pair difference in speed is only half an eyeblink between 9mm and .40 (which I believe worth the extra .05 seconds for 25% more KE). Spend a full eyeblink and you can fight with a 10mm over a 9mm.
There's always a larger caliber. The trick is knowing when it's OK to stop along the way.
For me on buff, a .416/400gr/2400fps or .458/500gr/2300fps is "enough gun".
I'm comfortable stopping there. You're comfortable for your own reasons stopping with the .458 Win.
We've both made our respective cases, and, to be honest, it's a rather close call, anyway.
daawg1963
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I've not shot either one, but I do know that 500J has a slightly rebated rim. If I were going to build one, I'd make sure I hired a gunsmith who has experience with DG rifles and specifically in the work necessary to ensure reliable extraction.
If I were wanting a 50 cal, I'd opt for 505 Gibbs on that alone. I'm sure most 500Js floating around work flawlessly, and perhaps I'm just overly cautious.
Nobody has a bigger streak of Romance/nostalgia in them than I do, but where that runs into functionality, for me, function still wins if only by a nose.
Having said all that, I'll likely never go bigger than my 404 Jeffery. I'm a hunter, not a PH.
One other thing I'll add, and I've mentioned here and there in other threads. More speed ain't all that and a bag of donuts, at least not for solids.
Randy Garrett did a penetration test back in 2003 - 4 different cal. 458 cartridges all firing 500 gr solids at saturated newspaper. 45-70 penetrated the deepest, followed by 458 WM, followed by 458 Lott, with 460 Wby mag having the shallowest. I'm not suggesting that 45-70 is the ideal elephant rifle, and neither does he. Just food for thought.
If I'm shooting a rifle that'll wallop with 90+ ft lbs of recoil, I'll opt for one of the 50 cals, not a fast 458.
If I were wanting a 50 cal, I'd opt for 505 Gibbs on that alone. I'm sure most 500Js floating around work flawlessly, and perhaps I'm just overly cautious.
Nobody has a bigger streak of Romance/nostalgia in them than I do, but where that runs into functionality, for me, function still wins if only by a nose.
Having said all that, I'll likely never go bigger than my 404 Jeffery. I'm a hunter, not a PH.
One other thing I'll add, and I've mentioned here and there in other threads. More speed ain't all that and a bag of donuts, at least not for solids.
Randy Garrett did a penetration test back in 2003 - 4 different cal. 458 cartridges all firing 500 gr solids at saturated newspaper. 45-70 penetrated the deepest, followed by 458 WM, followed by 458 Lott, with 460 Wby mag having the shallowest. I'm not suggesting that 45-70 is the ideal elephant rifle, and neither does he. Just food for thought.
If I'm shooting a rifle that'll wallop with 90+ ft lbs of recoil, I'll opt for one of the 50 cals, not a fast 458.
John Telford
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The short answer is No the Lott is not the same in stopping power as the .500 J or .505 Gibbs.
My friend Pierre van der Walt in his book African Dangerous Game Cartridges- makes the point that you cannot kill an animal anymore “deader” with a 500g bullet doing 2150 vs one doing 2300.
However a .505 600 g doing 2250 in thick bush tends to humble an elephant with more authority that the .458 Lott.
I have all three calibers and use them interchangeably with the Gibbs being my preferred caliber when doing Botswana elephants in thick bush. I let my assistant / trainee PH’s use the Lott .
It’s a more economical cartridge to shoot than the .500’s and the reason why many PH’s choose it. Most would prefer a Gibbs if they could afford one!
Tau Wilderness
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The Lott with 5+1 capacity is great when you want to take a flock of Elephant.
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Hi Dr. Ray, I will be in Cooktown from Oct 16 to Oct 23 fishing Lizard Island Black Marlin Tournament.
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I have several "slack" days after fishing before I head for stay in Sydney and Fiji.
Do you have any recommendations for 1 or 2 day hunt near Cooktown?
I've hunted both DG and PG in 4 different countries in Africa.
Thank you,
Bob