How to be polite, but honest, about trophy quality?

As an avid waterfowler and collector I see a lot of juvenile birds being mounted. I would never say anything to the hunter as I know that there has to be a story behind the mount, dogs first retrieve, first of a species or an extreme rarity.
I have one juvenile bird in my collection of 70+ or - mounted waterfowl, it’s a juvenile BLUE phase Ross goose taken in Texas. You goose hunters out there will agree I hope of how rare they are.
Not exactly the same but close.
 
Flipper Dude said:
No one likes that guy. The animal is in the salt. No way I’m gonna say anything to take away from that hunter’s experience. Now, make a mental note of the outfittter, in case it could be of use for planning a future hunt. My $.02.

Same rule applies when it comes to commenting on his wife’s appearance :cool:
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Well said, back in the day you had to check your deer in and have it weighed and I’ve seen some first time hunters and kids be completely deflated because of comments that should have been kept to ones self.

On the other hand I’ve been told by several people in their own homes “That’s the new top (insert species & ranking) in the world” when I simply know that is not the case, one man told me that his wife’s sable would be the world record Sable for SCI women’s category…… I just thought to myself “I don’t think SCI has a women’s break out for trophies”

But I can’t blame people, we filleted this Mahi in 2018 off of Costa Rica only to learn upon return it was most likely a world record.
IMG_6200.jpeg

We checked before leaving port, but the record we looked at was disqualified because it was caught by a commercial net.

However I’m a newbie to the African game with one hunt under my belt and I will not participate in what I don’t agree with and I don’t agree with trophy shipping costs so I gave my first and probably last Chobe Bushbuck to my PH for his game room.
IMG_3492.jpeg


So I understand how people can get caught up in the memories of trophies; I just believe that some people make it much more about the physical trophies on the wall than the spiritual trophies of adventure.
 
Hunting in Africa is completely different than hunting in North America. I've hunted for 50 years Blacktail Deer, Mule Deer, Rocky Mountain Elk, Roosevelt Elk, drew a tag for an Oregon once in a lifetime Ram, and Antelope in 3 States, I've killed all those Game I just mentioned some good nothing B&C but I've Killed small or Immature in the Elk and Deer departments not because I wanted the hunt over but seasons are only so long in the West. but I did it all on my own from finding the animal to skinning & quartering and then butchering to eat. Theres a story with every animal. When I go to Africa I have expectations of my PH that he'll put me on good animals and I have killed several trophies and proud of every one, but it isn't even close to doing it yourself in North America it's almost a black & white difference. On Safari I've averaged probably 6 or more animals per trip I've bought animals that I wounded but usually each Safari there is always 1 animal that made the trip my first Safari Plains game, Zebra was the tough one but it's a great story my next to last Safari for Cape Buffalo it was a Bushbuck it was right up there with my Buffalo the Bushbuck had been eluding me since my 1st Safari in 2005 I was in 4 different areas over the years where they were available through the years. If a person goes to Africa and shoots immature animals it's not his fault it's the outfitter or the PH's fault if the hunter had a great time Great but I wouldn't talk about him being a bad hunter. I have bigger problem with poor Taxidermist's. I was taken to a Taxidermist in the Eastern Cape in 2023 the quality was pathetic, but people use Taxidermist like that because they were cheaper, I want the animal to look like it did in the field more and more I'm doing Euro's they look Great. My Rant for the day.
 
Damn grass man. That’s the most I’ve ever seen you rant! Preach, brother! :cool:
 
It’s not our responsibility to grade anyone’s trophy. When they show you the trophy, simply say “nice” and quickly ask them to tell you about the stalk. Get them talking about the experience, which is the real trophy.
 
ranger92xi said:
I have a dilemma of sorts. A lot of friends and clients of mine show me their hunting photos from African safaris, and are very proud of them. I also see a lot of people showing off photos on this forum, and whilst some are lucky and shoot some beautiful animals, others come back with animals which, sooner or later, they will realise they should never have been charged trophy price for.

I have done 17+ safaris of my own, and I am an official SCI measurer, and so I know what good trophies, great trophies, and sub-par/immature animals look like.

So here is the question...how do we balance honesty with protecting people's feelings? How do we support hunters who have made the journey to Africa and come back with animals that they are happy with (at least for now), whilst also calling out the PHs and outfitters who pass off immature, substandard animals as trophies?

I know we cannot expect all hunters to know the record books, or be able to age animals through binoculars, and I know that sometimes, a client's age, impatience or lack of mobility, or even the weather, means shooting a marginal animal becomes a necessity, but there must be a way forward. Maybe PHASA should publish a minimum trophy standard, like NAPHA do in Namibia?

Very curious to hear everyone's thoughts.
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@ranger92xi. When a person shows you a photo of their hunting trip you can assume they are already pleased and proud of the animal taken, so— if you can’t say something Nice then keep quiet. A “Trophy” is much more then size or measurements. Shooting a massive animal in SA is certainly Not a “better” trophy than a smaller version taken in a free range area of TZ….it’s just Bigger. Each Hunter decides what a Trophy is to them and size is only one consideration…that’s my opinion.
 
ranger92xi said:
I'm glad I was able to clarify things, reading back, that OP could have been clearer, but hopefully people see where the thread is heading, towards a constructive discussion.
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Could of just told me all my animals are small.

Just messing with you. Im glad im not fixated on scores. I just like having good representations of the animals. But I also has seen some outfitters do some shady things like having guys kill cull animals and say they are trophys or sell a donation hunt for a roan and then the only roan on the property has one horn scattered.
 
Yeah, one person’s trophy is another’s hard pass. We have to support the few that are still out there hunting. That being said:

Unless you can judge African game (and most can’t), it’s up to the PH to decide and up to the hunter to listen. The PH has the responsibility to put you on an older animal. You need a committed PH to guide you to an appropriate animal. Here’s an example from my first of many future safaris:

PH and tracker spot some kudu off in the distance. We move in closer for a better look.

PH: Nah, all too young.
Me: That one looks pretty good.
PH: No.
Me: I’d be glad to take that one home with me.
PH: No.
Me: Honestly, if I was alone, I’d shoot that one every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
PH: You’re not alone, you’re with me. No.
Me: Please.
PH: No.
Me: Pretty please.
PH: No.
Me: *posing seductively, with my best “come hither” look* I’ll make it worth your while…
PH: F**k off. No.

Bottom line is that he was committed to the conservation mission and not a tourist’s killing mission. Not knowing better, I would have shot many young animals that experienced folks would deem substandard. Would I have been proud of them? Yes. Would I want someone who wasn’t there judging them. No. Celebrate the accomplishment that few achieve!
 
From a hunter's not a collector's perspective a trophy has little or nothing to do with the size. It's all about the total experience. At my age I might not remember the size, but every time I sit in the room of pictures and or a mount, I totally remember every moment.
 
I have shots trophies and culls. None have meant more to me than the others, it’s about the experience. “Trophy” hunting is ruining the experience. I have seen people be extremely disappointed with “near” record book animals. It’s the same experience, enjoy it.
 
I don't put a lot of stock in horn length.

A 26" impala or 60" kudu would be most impressive, but the hunter could've lucked into it just like the zebra in my profile pic.

Sure, we'd been hunting zebra for 3 days, walked and walked and got scratched up, seeing nothing but zebra asses in a cloud of dust while their hooves thundered away from us. And then we just lucked up with this one, lots of good cover to protect us from the herd's eyes and from the small-ish herd of impala that were trailing them. Then she separated herself at about 125 yards and I had a narrow shooting lane. It could have been a typical Burchell's, shadow stripes and fat white stripes. I wasn't hunting for a melanistic trophy, but I got one anyway.

It was just blind, zippety-doo-da luck that put this one in front of me.
 
ranger92xi said:
I have a dilemma of sorts. A lot of friends and clients of mine show me their hunting photos from African safaris, and are very proud of them. I also see a lot of people showing off photos on this forum, and whilst some are lucky and shoot some beautiful animals, others come back with animals which, sooner or later, they will realise they should never have been charged trophy price for.

I have done 17+ safaris of my own, and I am an official SCI measurer, and so I know what good trophies, great trophies, and sub-par/immature animals look like.

So here is the question...how do we balance honesty with protecting people's feelings? How do we support hunters who have made the journey to Africa and come back with animals that they are happy with (at least for now), whilst also calling out the PHs and outfitters who pass off immature, substandard animals as trophies?

I know we cannot expect all hunters to know the record books, or be able to age animals through binoculars, and I know that sometimes, a client's age, impatience or lack of mobility, or even the weather, means shooting a marginal animal becomes a necessity, but there must be a way forward. Maybe PHASA should publish a minimum trophy standard, like NAPHA do in Namibia?

Very curious to hear everyone's thoughts.
Click to expand...

Not sure that you can create a scale for this. I too am an SCI measurer and I've been presented photos of what could very well be the next world record impala that has been line-bred to be chocolate/golden/black swirl and a matching cape buffalo. Both huge, both shot in RSA behind a tiny fence. Both animals extremely young to ensure they don't broom down and lose their market value. Are those good trophies? I bite my tongue and smile politely. I don't think much of that kind of hunting.

On the other hand I've had people share they saved very, very hard to hunt in a free range situation in a more exotic country like Zim, Zam, or Namib. All the trophies were VERY mature, broomed down, definitely the most mature "Germanic Quality Trophies" someone could possible hunt. No different than a huge old elephant with 40lb shattered stumps for ivory. I didn't need to measure these trophies, they were remarkable trophies even though they wouldn't score bronze in the SCI system. Nonetheless, the hunter harvested the pinnacle dominant male of the species in the entire landscape, no small feat.

How are you going to make a scoring system that demonstrates which of the two above has the true heart of the hunter and is practicing the pinnacle of the sport? I think its the latter, the guy that bought specimens in the menagerie thinks it is the former. Both are very proud of their accomplishment, yet only one of them is the type of person I hold in enough esteem to host a feast to celebrate their accomplishment on my own dime.
 
rookhawk said:
Not sure that you can create a scale for this. I too am an SCI measurer and I've been presented photos of what could very well be the next world record impala that has been line-bred to be chocolate/golden/black swirl and a matching cape buffalo. Both huge, both shot in RSA behind a tiny fence. Both animals extremely young to ensure they don't broom down and lose their market value. Are those good trophies? I bite my tongue and smile politely. I don't think much of that kind of hunting.

On the other hand I've had people share they saved very, very hard to hunt in a free range situation in a more exotic country like Zim, Zam, or Namib. All the trophies were VERY mature, broomed down, definitely the most mature "Germanic Quality Trophies" someone could possible hunt. No different than a huge old elephant with 40lb shattered stumps for ivory. I didn't need to measure these trophies, they were remarkable trophies even though they wouldn't score bronze in the SCI system. Nonetheless, the hunter harvested the pinnacle dominant male of the species in the entire landscape, no small feat.

How are you going to make a scoring system that demonstrates which of the two above has the true heart of the hunter and is practicing the pinnacle of the sport? I think its the latter, the guy that bought specimens in the menagerie thinks it is the former. Both are very proud of their accomplishment, yet only one of them is the type of person I hold in enough esteem to host a feast to celebrate their accomplishment on my own dime.
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I agree and that was verybwell written. Not sure what broom down means.

I think the correct response has to lie in context of each conversation.
And thats why answering someones questions accuratly and without personal bias becomes important. If they want their score your going to have to burst their bubble. But your correct you dont have to detract from the experience either.
I see alot of people who are purely numbers driven. Got the most birds biggest deer most hogs ect.
But never slow down to think about the journey. Might not be so bad if we as a grouo steered people towards the journey and conservation mindset vs pure score and size.
I have alot of good sized deer at our place because ill lass on the large buck to clip one thats got non semetric antlers or has an injury ect. I like the european model of gsme managment. They seem to be alot more proactive in gsme managment
 
farmer_john said:
I agree and that was verybwell written. Not sure what broom down means.

I think the correct response has to lie in context of each conversation.
And thats why answering someones questions accuratly and without personal bias becomes important. If they want their score your going to have to burst their bubble. But your correct you dont have to detract from the experience either.
I see alot of people who are purely numbers driven. Got the most birds biggest deer most hogs ect.
But never slow down to think about the journey. Might not be so bad if we as a grouo steered people towards the journey and conservation mindset vs pure score and size.
I have alot of good sized deer at our place because ill lass on the large buck to clip one thats got non semetric antlers or has an injury ect. I like the european model of gsme managment. They seem to be alot more proactive in gsme managment
Click to expand...

"Broomed down" is a description of horns or antlers that are huge, but have lost their tips to honest wear over a long period of time. More commonly used on horns that are perennial than antlers that are annual growth. If you go to a European lodge or castle, the most prestigious trophies displayed are the broomed down ones. It indicates the pinnacle of conservation that the oldest animal was harvested, it infers the skill of the hunter that he outsmarted the most cunning animal. #1 world record animals in many species are actually harmful harvests, often juvenile animals that were grown in curated environments so they do not damage the tips.

Impala and Buffalo are good examples of this phenomenon. The biggest animals alive are often some of the very youngest, they just have exceptional genetics and they were cut down before they could spread their genetics.
 
deewayne2003 said:
Well said, back in the day you had to check your deer in and have it weighed and I’ve seen some first time hunters and kids be completely deflated because of comments that should have been kept to ones self.

On the other hand I’ve been told by several people in their own homes “That’s the new top (insert species & ranking) in the world” when I simply know that is not the case, one man told me that his wife’s sable would be the world record Sable for SCI women’s category…… I just thought to myself “I don’t think SCI has a women’s break out for trophies”

But I can’t blame people, we filleted this Mahi in 2018 off of Costa Rica only to learn upon return it was most likely a world record.
View attachment 784392
We checked before leaving port, but the record we looked at was disqualified because it was caught by a commercial net.

However I’m a newbie to the African game with one hunt under my belt and I will not participate in what I don’t agree with and I don’t agree with trophy shipping costs so I gave my first and probably last Chobe Bushbuck to my PH for his game room.
View attachment 784393

So I understand how people can get caught up in the memories of trophies; I just believe that some people make it much more about the physical trophies on the wall than the spiritual trophies of adventure.
Click to expand...
I see what you did there, ;) Beautiful bushbuck BTW.
 
I’m not a horn hunter… I’m an experience hunter… between my wife, daughter, and I we certainly have some Rowland Ward qualifying animals on the wall… but honestly my most valued trophies with the exception of one are all pretty “average”… it’s all about my wife working a total of 18 days over 4 different trips to finally get a bushbuck… he’s broken horned and an ugly ancient old ram that actually didn’t make a great shoulder mount at all…but the pursuit and the final stalk (taken literally at the last few moments of daylight) that make him a prized possession.

I’m not much for taking young animals.. I prefer to find old bulls and rams… but I’m also not one to question someone else that took a 22” impala a year too early… or that loves their 3.5 year old Texas 8 point whitetail… maybe those are special to them for some reason…

With deer I will freely admit I’m much more into freezer filling than trophy hunting… I’ll take out a 2.5 year old doe every time I see one.. and if the buck has an inside spread wider than his ears I don’t care how old he is… he’s going to be delicious :)
 
I haven’t put a tape to anything I’ve shot in the last decade. The first thing I do when an animal is on the ground is to check its mouth, my favourite trophies are the oldest ones. But that’s me.

Unless someone is doing damage to a herd by the animals they’re taking over a period of time I see no reason to rain on their parade.

We’re all hunters and we can individually be right without those who do things differently to us being wrong.
 
Remember when judging an outfitter by the photos to be sure to look at more than a sample of 1. Sometimes the PH is dealing with a client who is ill, out of shape, a pain in the ass or just can't shoot. They need to adjust the target based on the individual.
 
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