CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

wesheltonj · Apr 3, 2024

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model

gulfnews.com

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model

Published: April 03, 2024 17:56AFP
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The practice of breeding big cats to have them shot later by wealthy hunters has long been loathed by conservation and animal rights groups.Image Credit: Pixabay
Cape Town: South Africa on Wednesday laid out plans to phase out the captive breeding of lions for hunting purposes as the country moves to ban the controversial business.
The practice of breeding big cats to later have them shot by wealthy hunters typically paying thousands of US dollars has long been loathed by conservation and animal rights groups.

Hunters, usually foreigners, sometimes take home the head or skin of the killed animal as a trophy.
The South African government had already announced its intention to ban the breeding of lions for hunting in 2021 and an ad hoc panel has been working on the issue for the past two years.
“The panel recommended the closure of the captive breeding sector, including the keeping of lions in captivity, or the use of captive lions or their derivatives commercially,” Environment Minister Barabara Creecy told a press conference in Cape Town.

Breeders will have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change their business model before the ban kicks in.
The idea, which has faced strong opposition from representatives of the highly lucrative industry, was approved by the government last week but is yet to be translated into law.
The move comes with trophy hunting facing a growing backlash in the West.

Campaigns to ban the import of trophies have drawn support in the United States, Australia and several European countries in recent years.
“The industry is large and complex with a long history that is not aligned with both current international trends and domestic policy changes on conservation,” said Kamalasen Chetty, head of the ad hoc panel.
Between 8,000 and 12,000 lions are kept on about 350 farms across South Africa, according to estimates by animal rights groups that regularly denounce the conditions in which the animals are held.

The number of wild lions in comparison totals only around 3,500, according to the Endangered Wildlife Trust, a South Africa-based NGO.

revturbo9967 · Apr 3, 2024

This thread will not go well

wesheltonj · Apr 3, 2024

Article did not say anything about their CCP masters demand for bones.

mdwest · Apr 3, 2024

While CBL is clearly a heated debate topic even among hunters.. Im afraid the lion will be the real loser in all of this...

the saying "if it pays it stays" is real...

with only 3500 wild lions in South Africa, it wont be too long before numbers dwindle to nothingness..

if there is no financial reward available for lions.. there will be little use for them anywhere in South Africa other than in the national parks... game ranchers certainly wont want them roaming around their PG herds.. people in small towns certainly wont want them roaming around in the general area where they maintain domestic herds of goats, sheep, cattle, etc (not to mention children, pets, etc)...

Inline6 · Apr 3, 2024

revturbo9967 said:
This thread will not go well

No one here has a say. We all have our opinions, it is just that opinions.

We will see what happens in the long run. Population wise, I'm not sure it will be a benefit. I'm not a scientist, I'm just a guy on the net.

375Fox · Apr 3, 2024

mdwest said:
While CBL is clearly a heated debate topic even among hunters.. Im afraid the lion will be the real loser in all of this...

the saying "if it pays it stays" is real...

with only 3500 wild lions in South Africa, it wont be too long before numbers dwindle to nothingness..

if there is no financial reward available for lions.. there will be little use for them anywhere in South Africa other than in the national parks... game ranchers certainly wont want them roaming around their PG herds.. people in small towns certainly wont want them roaming around in the general area where they maintain domestic herds of goats, sheep, cattle, etc (not to mention children, pets, etc)...

I’m sure your post will get lots of likes from the pro-CBL crowd, but you trying to make it seem that lions are living wild on game ranches and cattle farms in South Africa when they are not. CBL lion farmers will be the only real losers and the outfitters that base their businesses on CBL shooting. The 3500 wild lions in South Africa are already limited to just Kruger and large game reserves. There is no connection between self sustaining wild or wild managed lion populations and CBL. CBL lions are raised as farm animals and released on certain game farms 7 days (maybe I’ll believe 30) before they are killed to minimize any damage they can cause. They are not used to create self sustaining populations or supplement wild lions because there is more money to be made and less risk with the CBL farming model. CBL lions are simply farm animals with a unique harvesting method sold as a hunt.

375Fox · Apr 3, 2024

This was announced previously. Last time seemed more like a marketing stunt for the CBL industry. I hope it actually gets banned this time. I think this is currently the most damaging practice in existence to the image of hunting especially when mixed with the lion bone trade to China and cub petting for tourists.

analog_peninsula · Apr 3, 2024

Captive animals are livestock, plain and simple. The conflation of wildlife and livestock is just muddy thinking by the confused. At the end of the day, I’m in favor of any policy that maximizes the lion population, and opposed to any that reduces genetic diversity.

mdwest · Apr 3, 2024

375Fox said:
but you trying to make it seem that lions are living wild on game ranches and cattle farms in South Africa when they are not. CBL lion farmers will be the only real losers and the outfitters that base their businesses on CBL shooting. The 3500 wild lions in South Africa are already limited to just Kruger and large game reserves. There is no connection between self sustaining wild or wild managed lion populations and CBL. CBL lions are raised as farm animals and released on certain game farms 7 days (maybe I’ll believe 30) before they are killed to minimize any damage they can cause. They are not used to create self sustaining populations or supplement wild lions because there is more money to be made and less risk with the CBL farming model. CBL lions are simply farm animals with a unique harvesting method sold as a hunt.

Im actually not trying to make it seem like anything other than what it is... Im relatively certain nothing was said in the post youre referencing about wild lions living on game ranches and cattle farms.. nor was that even remotely implied..

what was said was the model of if it pays, it stays, had proven to be real, valid, and absolutely in play in South Africa.. and if lions (CBL or otherwise) do not pay, then there will be little to no incentive for them to "stay" and their numbers will decline..

There are plenty of anti-hunting, animal rights, and other activist groups that claim they want to preserve, protect, assist, etc the species through the cessation of CBL hunting.. but I cant find one that actually puts their money where their mouth is that is doing anything to ensure the long term preservation of the species...

Theyre all happy to oppose hunting, or any hunting related conservation efforts...

but who is actually going to "pay" moving forward to ensure that lions continue to bring value to South Africa?

To say there is no connection to CBL and self sustaining wild, or wild managed lion populations is frankly asinine, disingenuous, or possibly both... they are all after all, LIONS.. no different than a buffalo living on a 500 acre game farm in South Africa is still a buffalo.. and a buffalo living in the Kruger is still a buffalo.. and a buffalo living free range in Zimbabwe is a buffalo..

FWIW, I am personally not a fan of CBL under the current "rules".. you wont see me booking a CBL hunt as a result... that said.. Im also not opposed to anyone else that may want to do it.. the species is not endangered... the money in many cases directly, and in most indirectly goes toward conservation of both wildlife and wildlife habitat.. and as a rule, I'm not one to oppose someone else doing something that is legal, whether I actually think that something is attractive or interesting or not (I dont care to infringe on other peoples rights, nor do I care for other people attempting to infringe on mine)..

Regarding lions being farm animals with a unique harvesting method.. I guess my response is... so what?

If someone wants to develop a new, unique way to harvest guinea pigs that attracts people to come harvest them after paying a fee... as long as the method isnt inhumane.. who cares?

If we want to debate the humanity (or lack thereof) of CBL.. thats an entirely different matter..

The statement made had zero to do with the ethics or morality or humanity of CBL.. and everything to do with the fact that there will indeed be less lions in South Africa soon as a result of this decision..

Tanner Lee · Apr 3, 2024

So what is going to happen to those lions? They just going to kill them all then? Or are they going to release some?

mdwest · Apr 3, 2024

Tanner Lee said:
So what is going to happen to those lions? They just going to kill them all then? Or are they going to release some?

Thats a good question... Im going to guess no one really knows right now..

Im sure there will be a mad dash to sell as many hunts as possible (big discounts in pricing?) over the next two years before the new law takes effect.. and I'd guess breeding will slow down if not completely stop in very short order..

What happens to those that remain? I dunno? that will be an interesting and difficult problem to solve for sure though..

LivingTheDream · Apr 3, 2024

Tanner Lee said:
So what is going to happen to those lions? They just going to kill them all then? Or are they going to release some?

Sounds like they can still be breed and killed for their bones. I am sure some stock will be liquidated.

Hopefully animals rights will focus their efforts on the bone trade and poor conditions these lions will be raised in and not on other hunting activities.

375Fox · Apr 3, 2024

Tanner Lee said:
So what is going to happen to those lions? They just going to kill them all then? Or are they going to release some?

There is nowhere to release them. No wild areas want them because they are considered no conservation value. No game farms want them because they kill their animals and the farms are not large enough to support lion populations. All CBL lions were going to be harvested at some point regardless to supply the bones to China.

375Fox · Apr 3, 2024

mdwest said:
Im actually not trying to make it seem like anything other than what it is... Im relatively certain nothing was said in the post youre referencing about wild lions living on game ranches and cattle farms.. nor was that even remotely implied..

what was said was the model of if it pays, it stays, had proven to be real, valid, and absolutely in play in South Africa.. and if lions (CBL or otherwise) do not pay, then there will be little to no incentive for them to "stay" and their numbers will decline..

There are plenty of anti-hunting, animal rights, and other activist groups that claim they want to preserve, protect, assist, etc the species through the cessation of CBL hunting.. but I cant find one that actually puts their money where their mouth is that is doing anything to ensure the long term preservation of the species...

Theyre all happy to oppose hunting, or any hunting related conservation efforts...

but who is actually going to "pay" moving forward to ensure that lions continue to bring value to South Africa?

To say there is no connection to CBL and self sustaining wild, or wild managed lion populations is frankly asinine, disingenuous, or possibly both... they are all after all, LIONS.. no different than a buffalo living on a 500 acre game farm in South Africa is still a buffalo.. and a buffalo living in the Kruger is still a buffalo.. and a buffalo living free range in Zimbabwe is a buffalo..

FWIW, I am personally not a fan of CBL under the current "rules".. you wont see me booking a CBL hunt as a result... that said.. Im also not opposed to anyone else that may want to do it.. the species is not endangered... the money in many cases directly, and in most indirectly goes toward conservation of both wildlife and wildlife habitat.. and as a rule, I'm not one to oppose someone else doing something that is legal, whether I actually think that something is attractive or interesting or not (I dont care to infringe on other peoples rights, nor do I care for other people attempting to infringe on mine)..

Regarding lions being farm animals with a unique harvesting method.. I guess my response is... so what?

If someone wants to develop a new, unique way to harvest guinea pigs that attracts people to come harvest them after paying a fee... as long as the method isnt inhumane.. who cares?

If we want to debate the humanity (or lack thereof) of CBL.. thats an entirely different matter..

The statement made had zero to do with the ethics or morality or humanity of CBL.. and everything to do with the fact that there will indeed be less lions in South Africa soon as a result of this decision..

There is a supply and demand farming model that adds no conservation value. It simply supports the farming economy. Then there is the sustainable hunting model where you harvest older males and excess population to benefit the overall population and support conservation of wild animals and the land they live on. CBL is the farming supply and demand model, nothing more. The CBL lions in South Africa have no more conservation value than the lions Tiger King had in Oklahoma. Mixing farming and hunting is a dangerous line to hunting’s image. The amount of half truths and misleading information that get put out there to defend the practice I find very dangerous as well.

mdwest · Apr 3, 2024

375Fox said:
There is a supply and demand farming model that adds no conservation value. It simply supports the farming economy. Then there is the sustainable hunting model where you harvest older males and excess population to benefit the overall population and support conservation of wild animals and the land they live on. CBL is the farming supply and demand model, nothing more. The CBL lions in South Africa have no more conservation value than the lions Tiger King had in Oklahoma. Mixing farming and hunting is a dangerous line to hunting’s image.

No argument. As stated earlier, Im personally not a fan of the concept and dont have an interest in "hunting" a CBL..

Also as stated earlier, I also dont care if someone else wants to hunt one... it is at the moment legal (clearly changing soon).. and I make it a point not to infringe on other peoples rights, and have no desire for other people to infringe on mine..

That said.. the mix of farming and hunting is done successfully and correctly all over the globe.. whether we're talking captive pigeons or quail, game farms raising red stag in New Zealand, game breeders genetically raising super deer in TX to be placed on high fence ranches, buffalo across South Africa, etc.. your statement about mixing the two being dangerous is preposterous in my mind...

Mixing farming that is seen as unethical with hunting can be dangerous to hunting's image.. no matter what animal we are talking about (CBL, or any other..)... that would be a statement I could agree with..

Should the practice of pen raising and flight conditioning quail and chukar for the purpose of releasing them to be shot on the day of the release be discontinued? or is that ok? there are hunters out there that absolutely oppose this practice.. and there are animal rights groups that oppose this practice..

Or what about those 220 class deer sitting in 5 acre fields in the TX Hill country right now that are being fed high protein pelletized diets?

The question then becomes.. what is ethical? and how do you educate people? and do you really care about the opinions of people that have no desire to be educated? if so, what is the correct response (it certainly isnt to cease ethical practices in order to placate those who refuse to accept facts, logic, and truth)..

Nyati · Apr 3, 2024

We may see all those lions exported to China, where they can breed and supply the bone trade :A Stirring:

mdwest · Apr 3, 2024

Nyati said:
We may see all those lions exported to China, where they can breed and supply the bone trade

I’m honestly surprised that hasn’t already happened..

Land and labor are cheap in china… and the Chinese could care less about western ethics…

I could see a couple of dozen 200 acre lion farms popping up in the rural provinces…

That would be a bold, but likely highly lucrative business endeavor for some Chinese company

375Fox · Apr 3, 2024

mdwest said:
No argument. As stated earlier, Im personally not a fan of the concept and dont have an interest in "hunting" a CBL..

Also as stated earlier, I also dont care if someone else wants to hunt one... it is at the moment legal (clearly changing soon).. and I make it a point not to infringe on other peoples rights, and have no desire for other people to infringe on mine..

That said.. the mix of farming and hunting is done successfully and correctly all over the globe.. whether we're talking captive pigeons or quail, game farms raising red stag in New Zealand, game breeders genetically raising super deer in TX to be placed on high fence ranches, buffalo across South Africa, etc.. your statement about mixing the two being dangerous is preposterous in my mind...

Mixing farming that is seen as unethical with hunting can be dangerous to hunting's image.. no matter what animal we are talking about (CBL, or any other..)... that would be a statement I could agree with..

Should the practice of pen raising and flight conditioning quail and chukar for the purpose of releasing them to be shot on the day of the release be discontinued? or is that ok? there are hunters out there that absolutely oppose this practice.. and there are animal rights groups that oppose this practice..

Or what about those 220 class deer sitting in 5 acre fields in the TX Hill country right now that are being fed high protein pelletized diets?

The question then becomes.. what is ethical? and how do you educate people? and do you really care about the opinions of people that have no desire to be educated? if so, what is the correct response (it certainly isnt to cease ethical practices in order to placate those who refuse to accept facts, logic, and truth)..

That’s all mostly fair. I suppose my distinction comes when farmers as opposed to hunters control the practice. Deer in Texas and quail and pheasant are primarily raised for hunting. Lions are raised equally to supply bone trade, petting industry, and hunting to generate maximum revenue from an animal. I’ve read the SAPA standards but really there are no controls or verifications in place on what lions make it to the hunting industry. It’s primarily a farming activity with hunting sold as a harvesting method for the bones. I don’t know of any other species that integrates that many aspects into one farming practice but is defended as hunting. I’ve wrote in other posts if it was no longer called hunting my objection would go away, but I don’t think “farmed lion harvesting” would sell many lions to hunters.

revturbo9967 · Apr 3, 2024

375Fox said:
There is a supply and demand farming model that adds no conservation value. It simply supports the farming economy. Then there is the sustainable hunting model where you harvest older males and excess population to benefit the overall population and support conservation of wild animals and the land they live on. CBL is the farming supply and demand model, nothing more. The CBL lions in South Africa have no more conservation value than the lions Tiger King had in Oklahoma. Mixing farming and hunting is a dangerous line to hunting’s image. The amount of half truths and misleading information that get put out there to defend the practice I find very dangerous as well.

Ontario Hunter · Apr 3, 2024

It was inevitable. Any farmer who stayed in this business has been rolling the dice for a long time. If they didn't change gears by now, it's hard to have much compassion for them.

If someone held a gun to my head and told me I had to go on a canned lion "hunt," I'd tell him to pull the trigger. No joke.

CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

wesheltonj

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model

gulfnews.com

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

revturbo9967

wesheltonj

mdwest

Inline6

375Fox

375Fox

analog_peninsula

mdwest

Tanner Lee

mdwest

LivingTheDream

375Fox

375Fox

mdwest

Nyati

mdwest

375Fox

revturbo9967

Ontario Hunter

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CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model gulfnews.com

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South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting​

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South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting

Breeders have two years to voluntarily withdraw from the sector and change business model

gulfnews.com

South Africa to end captive lion breeding for hunting