Thoughts on reviving a cowboy cartridge for dangerous game

[Hunter-Habib]

A 210Gr .40 caliber lead bullet traveling at 1960 FPS can definitely be used on dangerous game… as long as you don’t mind your white hunter using his REAL dangerous game rifle to finish the job once you’ve drawn first blood.

In all seriousness, it can make a good rifle for feral hogs.

In regards to properly made .40 caliber bullets, back in the 1970s we used to have Colorado Custom Bullets who would make you copper jacketed lead cored bullets in any size & weight that you could think of. But they later became Barnes and stopped offering custom sizes. There was another company called Naval Ordinance in the 1980s, who used to offer similar services but they’re gone too.

You might want to have a discussion with Rhino Bullets in South Africa. They do custom sizes & weights.

 

[AZDAVE]

Having shot thousands of both 45/70 and 40/65 rounds in sharps, rolling blocks, and ballards single shots My short answer is that there are much better rounds to use. Your 404 would be a much wiser choice.
Most of the 40/65's have a .408 bore so appropriate DG bullets would be difficult to source. building it on a bolt action and loading to max would get you into the 2000ish ball park. Running rounds at max you give Mr Murphy plenty of room to cause problems. Would never even consider DG with the ballistics in a old lever gun.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Well if you can get a 400gr bullet to 2000 - 2100fps it would work but there are much better cartridges easier to come by & run, 45/70-45/90 being a couple, other than standard DG cartridges .

Does it use .410 bullets like .450/400 & 405Win, I was going to beef up a .405Win years ago but many have done it since .

No, 0.405 diameter for 40-60 and 0.406 for 40-65 Win. I suppose if building the rifle to an obsolete cartridge I could make the diameter 0.410. Those bullets MIGHT be easier to find.

This is about brass as much as anything else. I know how difficult it now is to find brass for my 404. 45-70 brass is much more abundant. But getting those big 44 (Marlin etc) or 45 caliber bullets gassed up can be brutal for the shooter. And range is very limited. With modern bullets it's not necessary to lob the same big blobs out of those cartridges as they were designed for back in the lead only buffalo and Injun days. I like the idea of a bit more range, plenty of punch downrange, less punch on the shoulder, and easy to find brass. I also know what actions to build on. Finding bullets would be the kicker. Always has to be a kicker.

I had thought about necking down a 45-90 case to 40 caliber but I think overall length would exceed what either action (P14 and Siamese Mauser) could handle. Sorry, I'm not at all interested in building a single shot DGR.

 

[Tra3]

This sounds like an interesting concept. And a risky concept because it would be underpowered.
Here is my simple assessment:
If your hobby is building rifles/calibers, spend the money and time doing so.
If your hobby is hunting, spend the money and time doing so.

I find that some hunting related expenses/ideas drift too far from the goal of hunting, so I don’t spend the time or money.

Your .404 is an excellent caliber. The cost in time and $$ of this curious project would probably equal the initial outlay of a hunt.

 

[flying sailor]

If you want to do this get your thoughts together and contact Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and gage. I had Dave design and build a set of reamers for the 8x50R Lebel using modern 8mm barrel blanks. He made some terrific recommendations and built the tooling for my shop. Custom tooling may take 2-4 months and a fistful of dollars. But it is worth every penny. I am able to reproduce barrels that have not been made in over a century. I am happy. My customers are happy. PTG is number 1!

 

[Papa72]

Lots of jacketed & monos available if you decide on .410. I see 350gr .408 cast available that would eliminate a custom mold expense.

 

[Saul]

If I were looking to use an old American cartridge in Africa, I would reach for the .405 win first.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This sounds like an interesting concept. And a risky concept because it would be underpowered.
Here is my simple assessment:
If your hobby is building rifles/calibers, spend the money and time doing so.
If your hobby is hunting, spend the money and time doing so.

I find that some hunting related expenses/ideas drift too far from the goal of hunting, so I don’t spend the time or money.

Your .404 is an excellent caliber. The cost in time and $$ of this curious project would probably equal the initial outlay of a hunt.

I started building my 404 last year in April and it was done by the time I went to Africa in August (except bluing which was done shortly after returning). Total cost was just over $2K which is about the cost of return ticket to hunt Africa. I expect this project could be a bit more expensive. The barrel would be the kicker. Wait ... bottom metal. Hmmm. Now that might just put the keebash to this idea. Hmm. Nah, if the Siamese Mauser can be built into 45-70 then 40-60 should be a piece of cake. Further investigation needed.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

If I were looking to use an old American cartridge in Africa, I would reach for the .405 win first.

I'm sure 405 is too long for either Siamese Mauser or P14. I'd have to check on that. Getting brass for those is not impossible but certainly not as accessible as 45-70.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Well your first mistake is planning on going away from lever action...

Seriously, you seem like someone who puts a lot of thought into what you do. Go for it and ignore the naysayers. Not my cup of tea: too many existing calibers in existing rifles still on my bucket list to throw money at. But if it makes you happy, it produces desired results, and the planning is solid... go for it.

 

[Tra3]

I started building my 404 last year in April and it was done by the time I went to Africa in August (except bluing which was done shortly after returning). Total cost was just over $2K which is about the cost of return ticket to hunt Africa. I expect this project could be a bit more expensive. The barrel would be the kicker. Wait ... bottom metal. Hmmm. Now that might just put the keebash to this idea. Hmm. Nah, if the Siamese Mauser can be built into 45-70 then 40-60 should be a piece of cake. Further investigation needed.

You could end up with a fantastically unique $10,000 rifle! Or you could do a two week hunt. Id say go hunting. Neither option is pragmatic.
We all have a variety of firearms, but end up reaching for the trusty one when leaving the door to hunt.

 

[Sarg]

Funny, you mention keeping it a lever @Tundra Tiger we did some loads for a 1886Win in 40/82 a while back (its still in the shop) & before this I was making up a .405Win on a Lee Speed project for the last 18yrs (I'm not fast lol) made me think of the 40/?? family & look at a few of them, I thought I might find one used in Cow boy shooting so more brass might be about but it was hard to go passed a .405Win loaded slightly warmer.

I was eyeing a .400 Purdy loaded Nitro strong but talked myself out of it, did manage to get a .40 Cal barrel from some ones .400 Brit project (303 Brit blown out straight) I have a few .375Ex 2 1/2in rifles while cool & powerful are not up to DG standard even with modern bullets, well I think all .375's a pushing it really on DG.

I have a few of the very nice BSA P14 sporters (mine aren't), ill check to see if .405Win might work for you ?

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Ontario Hunter there have been two successful revivals of old cartridges to successfully harvest DG. The cartridges selected were the .405 Win and .45-90. The guy who did the hunting used modern bullets from North Fork IIRC. I think your selection of the .40-60 for this is wanting. Need more oomph.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You could end up with a fantastically unique $10,000 rifle! Or you could do a two week hunt. Id say go hunting. Neither option is pragmatic.
We all have a variety of firearms, but end up reaching for the trusty one when leaving the door to hunt.

I'm not spending ten grand on this ... if I even go ahead with it. I'll budget $1500 for a barrel, $300 for safety and trigger, and maybe $300 for an economical stock (for starter). I'm assuming the military bottom metal will work (compared to $400+ for my 404 bottom metal). $250 for iron sights and base/rail which is about what I spent on my 404 build.

 

[Sarg]

Ok had a look for you & the P14 will just let a .405Win with a 300gr bullet fit, but there is LOTS of metal in the front of that magazine.

The 40/65 (looks identical to my 40/60 bullet ?) is way short but the rim is a little too large to fit in a unmodified magazine.

I think if you were serious the .405Win is the go, if not a 40/82 to 40/90, these may have the legs ?

But again a lot of better cartridges out there, fun to mess with ideas & some times finish them, I recently built a 50/70 Gov in a modern single shot & with heavier nitro loads is turning into a Monster lol !

Another thought I had was a .40 on the 9.3x74R case, shortened to what ever length would work, a lot easier to find cases for this one & will into the future I would say ?

 

[318AE]

As others have mentioned, it feels like the long way around to a 405 Winchester - a classic cartridge of TR lore, that is still loaded today.

It get it that you have or can get a lot of 45/70 brass. It’s a little like saying you’re going to build a 318 WR, because it’s easy to find 30/06 brass you can resize. There are a lot of reasons to jump into the peculiarity of a 318 WR, but I wouldn’t do it mostly because I have a bunch of 30/06 brass.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ok had a look for you & the P14 will just let a .405Win with a 300gr bullet fit, but there is LOTS of metal in the front of that magazine.

View attachment 596615

The 40/65 (looks identical to my 40/60 bullet ?) is way short but the rim is a little too large to fit in a unmodified magazine.

View attachment 596616

I think if you were serious the .405Win is the go, if not a 40/82 to 40/90, these may have the legs ?

But again a lot of better cartridges out there, fun to mess with ideas & some times finish them, I recently built a 50/70 Gov in a modern single shot & with heavier nitro loads is turning into a Monster lol !

Another thought I had was a .40 on the 9.3x74R case, shortened to what ever length would work, a lot easier to find cases for this one & will into the future I would say ?

Of course, with rimmed cartridges there would need to be lots of room in the front of the magazine if rounds are stacked one in front of another. I'm not sure there is enough room for stacking multiple 405 Winchester in P14 Enfield? I know building those rifles and Siamese Mauser into 45-70 is fairly popular.

With a stout bolt action I see no reason why this cartridge couldn't push a 300 gr copper bullet in excess of 2000 fps ... unless case doesn't have enough capacity? 404J can push 400 gr 0.423 caliber bullets well past 2150 fps. How do case capacities compare?

They don't compare. 2.1" for 40-60 and 2.8" for 404J. Perhaps necking down longer 45-90 case to 40 caliber would be more comparable. But then the brass accessibility angle goes out the window ... mostly.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm sure 405 is too long for either Siamese Mauser or P14. I'd have to check on that. Getting brass for those is not impossible but certainly not as accessible as 45-70.

@Ontario Hunter
The 405 Winchester fits nicely in a No4 Mk1 SMLE. I was thinking of doing that but went the 444 Marlin.
The P14 will handle up to the 505 Gibbs. So action length ain't an issue. Money may be
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ok had a look for you & the P14 will just let a .405Win with a 300gr bullet fit, but there is LOTS of metal in the front of that magazine.

View attachment 596615

The 40/65 (looks identical to my 40/60 bullet ?) is way short but the rim is a little too large to fit in a unmodified magazine.

View attachment 596616

I think if you were serious the .405Win is the go, if not a 40/82 to 40/90, these may have the legs ?

But again a lot of better cartridges out there, fun to mess with ideas & some times finish them, I recently built a 50/70 Gov in a modern single shot & with heavier nitro loads is turning into a Monster lol !

Another thought I had was a .40 on the 9.3x74R case, shortened to what ever length would work, a lot easier to find cases for this one & will into the future I would say ?

@Sarge
Removing metal from the feed ramp is only for the very experienced.
When lengthening the P14 most of the metal is removed from the rear of the action and the bolt stop altered to give a longer throw. If'n a 375 H&H fits the 495 will .
Bob

 

[AZDAVE]

I wasn't suggesting building off a older single shot, just mentioned them as they are what I have experience shooting 40/65 rounds in.

If you are just looking for something interesting to build either will fit in both bolt actions you mentioned.

If you are looking for a 40 cal to be built off a common easier to find brass than your 404, Just build a 400 Whelen as it's parent case is a 30/06. it will push a 400gr a 2150 staying under max pressures.