The Cannon Myth: Why I'd Rather Hit Than Bruise

Now you’ve gone off into the weeds. [=3181]@michael458[/USER] has forgotten more about bullets and their performance than you’ll ever know.
Perhaps I have gone into the weeds, but that doesn’t make the weeds wrong.

I have respect for Michael’s experience and knowledge even though the little I know. But “he knows more about bullets than you ever will” isn’t really an argument it’s an appeal to authority. We can discuss the bullet, the construction, and the actual performance without turning it into a contest of who has forgotten more.

I’m happy to be corrected by facts. Just not by credentials.
 
I had few interactions with the mentioned user. When I asked if his ammo was field tested in Africa, he obviously did not like it and said no.
Whoever you are, you are confused. Or I am getting old and forget things, to the best of my memory I have never had a conversation with you? Perhaps I am wrong? But I doubt very seriously that I would not "Like" a question, and then for sure would not have said no to that. To begin with I don't load ammo, but did design the current line of CEB Safari Solids and Safari Raptors, with lots of help of course, and yes, I have shot a few animals with those bullets in Africa, Australia, and more.......... no gel tests here, but everything was tested here for terminal performance before going to the field. Gel is just not efficient with big bore bullet tests, more suited for small bore and handguns. All tests done here were with a mix of wet print. We were also very involved with North Fork in those days too, before it was sold, I was good friends with John Koegler one of the owners at the time and he visited here on several occasions where we had many discussions about bullet design. I had North Fork do many special designs in .500 caliber, .474, .458 and .416. Those are coveted here to this day, however I see that in the current North Fork lineup, many of those bullets are still available.

I am not really even aware of what this thread is about, just saw my name invoked.
 
Those tusks looks impressive. The lower one approx 60 pounds each or more?
Unfortunately not.
They are 30 pounds plus 35 pounds, ivory.

Second pair of tusks are replicas of the same.

I was worried if one paper was missing I would not be able to ship them home.
So, to stay on safe side, I made replicas.

Thus, two pairs were delivered: replicas - plus - ivory.
(Luckily, all export and import papers were in order)

Replicas are identical, and not too much lighter, everything was copied to detail, painted, and included serial numbers of ivory.

Amazing job, by Collets Wildlife Artistry.
 
I’ve never heard of a PH being disappointed when a client arrives in camp with a scoped 375.

If you want “insurance” in case your first shot is poor, and if the follow up results in an honest to goodness charge (not a buffalo simply seeking to regain its feet), and if the PH’s rifle jams, or he doesn’t have a clear shot or is inept, and if your shot while the buffalo is charging misses the brain or spine, and if you think an additional tenth of an inch (or five hundredths) of bore diameter causes a shot the the shoulder or brisket to turn a charge, than you have a good reason for your 40+bore. I don’t think the opposite end of the ~20 ft lbs of additional recoil is going to shake a 1600lb buffalo much.

It may be good to remember that when most of the 40 calibers and NE cartridges were developed, the bullets, particularly softs, were crap by today’s standards, and so were optics. The 375 was quite lethal then, and is even more effective now. Do I like doubles and classic cartridges? I sure do. Is it because they are more effective? Not really.
well said
 
but bullets that shed weight are obviously bound to lose inertia after impact, especially if velocity is reduced.
Yes, but why is it that even though they lose weight, they still out penetrate a big lead mushroom?

I’ll let you think on that one!

Inertia is only a small part of penetration, and certainly not the biggest factor.
deformation plays a major role in the ability to maintain a straight wound path.

So then the inertia issue becomes a moot point.
 
Unfortunately not.
They are 30 pounds plus 35 pounds, ivory.

Second pair of tusks are replicas of the same.

I was worried if one paper was missing I would not be able to ship them home.
So, to stay on safe side, I made replicas.

Thus, two pairs were delivered: replicas - plus - ivory.
(Luckily, all export and import papers were in order)

Replicas are identical, and not too much lighter, everything was copied to detail, painted, and included serial numbers of ivory.

Amazing job, by Collets Wildlife Artistry.
Pictures can be deceptive..anyway impressive.
 
BTW, @SStomcat what is your experience in hunting elephants in Africa with the .375?
I haven’t hunted elephant, and I don’t plan to. You might want to read the hunting story I’ve posted here before assuming that my experience begins and ends with Africa and DG.

Somehow, there seems to be a notion that “hunting” automatically means Africa, elephant, and dangerous game. It doesn’t. There are many forms of hunting, and some of us have been fortunate enough to experience places, wildlife, and hunting parties that don’t come with a PH, a tracker, a comfortable camp, and a steak and wine waiting at the end of the day. :E Lol:

I know you’ve hunted elephant, stayed at five-star lodges and been chauffeured around the bush. Good for you genuinely. Those are experiences in their own right.

My experiences have been rather different. I’ve hunted in remote places where there was no PH, no tracker, no camp to return to, and certainly no one asking how I wanted my steak cooked.

Have you ever been close to a Royal Bengal tiger in full charge? HAve you seen what a beat is? Have you seen bears been driven out, Sambars, deers, Hogs coming at you at full speed down a mountain?

HAve you spent a night out in the middle of nowhere where there is no help, no cell phones, no maps and slept in the open with sky as your roof?

Probably not. And that’s perfectly fine. But perhaps that also means we’ve simply seen very different sides of what “hunting” can mean.

So I wouldn’t be too quick to measure someone’s hunting experience solely by the number of elephants they’ve hunted.
 
I haven’t hunted elephant, and I don’t plan to. You might want to read the hunting story I’ve posted here before assuming that my experience begins and ends with Africa and DG.

Somehow, there seems to be a notion that “hunting” automatically means Africa, elephant, and dangerous game. It doesn’t. There are many forms of hunting, and some of us have been fortunate enough to experience places, wildlife, and hunting parties that don’t come with a PH, a tracker, a comfortable camp, and a steak and wine waiting at the end of the day. :E Lol:

I know you’ve hunted elephant, stayed at five-star lodges and been chauffeured around the bush. Good for you genuinely. Those are experiences in their own right.

My experiences have been rather different. I’ve hunted in remote places where there was no PH, no tracker, no camp to return to, and certainly no one asking how I wanted my steak cooked.

Have you ever been close to a Royal Bengal tiger in full charge? HAve you seen what a beat is? Have you seen bears been driven out, Sambars, deers, Hogs coming at you at full speed down a mountain?

HAve you spent a night out in the middle of nowhere where there is no help, no cell phones, no maps and slept in the open with sky as your roof?

Probably not. And that’s perfectly fine. But perhaps that also means we’ve simply seen very different sides of what “hunting” can mean.

So I wouldn’t be too quick to measure someone’s hunting experience solely by the number of elephants they’ve hunted.
And you say that im a trouble starter who takes jabs at people….

At least I know what I am talking about hahah.

You are a trip, you post these threads and then when people don’t go along how you like, you complain. Just like the stupid barnes thread you posted. I don’t get it.
 
I haven’t hunted elephant, and I don’t plan to. You might want to read the hunting story I’ve posted here before assuming that my experience begins and ends with Africa and DG.

Somehow, there seems to be a notion that “hunting” automatically means Africa, elephant, and dangerous game. It doesn’t. There are many forms of hunting, and some of us have been fortunate enough to experience places, wildlife, and hunting parties that don’t come with a PH, a tracker, a comfortable camp, and a steak and wine waiting at the end of the day. :E Lol:

I know you’ve hunted elephant, stayed at five-star lodges and been chauffeured around the bush. Good for you genuinely. Those are experiences in their own right.

My experiences have been rather different. I’ve hunted in remote places where there was no PH, no tracker, no camp to return to, and certainly no one asking how I wanted my steak cooked.

Have you ever been close to a Royal Bengal tiger in full charge? HAve you seen what a beat is? Have you seen bears been driven out, Sambars, deers, Hogs coming at you at full speed down a mountain?

HAve you spent a night out in the middle of nowhere where there is no help, no cell phones, no maps and slept in the open with sky as your roof?

Probably not. And that’s perfectly fine. But perhaps that also means we’ve simply seen very different sides of what “hunting” can mean.

So I wouldn’t be too quick to measure someone’s hunting experience solely by the number of elephants they’ve hunted.
Well when you start your first post about what Bell did.
It seems your taking about elephant it’s kinda what he is famous for
 
And you say that im a trouble starter who takes jabs at people….

At least I know what I am talking about hahah.

You are a trip, you post these threads and then when people don’t go along how you like, you complain. Just like the stupid barnes thread you posted. I don’t get it.
And yet here you are again, proving my point for me. You call me a troublemaker for taking jabs, while writing an entire paragraph taking jabs at me. The irony seems to have completely escaped you or perhaps you’re just too obnoxiously dumb to recognize it.
And the “I know what I’m talking about” line is particularly amusing. Confidence is wonderful. Being confidently wrong is even more entertaining.
As for my threads, you’re free not to read them, not to comment, or even to pretend they bother you. Yet somehow, here you are again, showing up to complain about them.
That part I actually find the most amusing.

So please, carry on. I’d hate to deprive you of yet another opportunity to demonstrate exactly what you’re complaining about.
 
And yet here you are again, proving my point for me. You call me a troublemaker for taking jabs, while writing an entire paragraph taking jabs at me. The irony seems to have completely escaped you or perhaps you’re just too obnoxiously dumb to recognize it.
And the “I know what I’m talking about” line is particularly amusing. Confidence is wonderful. Being confidently wrong is even more entertaining.
As for my threads, you’re free not to read them, not to comment, or even to pretend they bother you. Yet somehow, here you are again, showing up to complain about them.
That part I actually find the most amusing.

So please, carry on. I’d hate to deprive you of yet another opportunity to demonstrate exactly what you’re complaining about.
Too much quality entertainment for a Tuesday afternoon. Save some of your energy for primetime.
 
You really are a class act- "one of a kind", really.

You are persona non grata in this thread, yet you keep coming back with your self-professed wisdom, apparently unable to resist rubbing it in.

To me, you’re a wannabe hunter who shoots what you like. Fair enough. But that doesn’t make you the self-appointed adjudicator of what is right or wrong, or give your opinions some special authority over everyone else’s.
And what’s with all the ridiculous emojis? Don’t you have anything better to do than spend your time here trying to soothe that rather inflated ego?
Do yourself a favor stay away. No one is waiting for your next contribution, and trust me, you won’t be missed. ROFL

Relax Soumya, take a deep breath!

I clearly touched a nerve in my first post when I titled it "Always the same tired 100 year old discussion..." and you have since been nothing but patronizing, insulting, etc.

And you DO tend to go round and round, repeating always the same question, despite members answering it, each in their own way, time and again.

I am not the only one. Any person whom you perceive is challenging you in the slightest receives the same superiority treatment.

So, OK, in your own exact words, you saw "once, at a distance, a Royal Bengal tiger" (Shikar in the Palamu Hills) Hmmm... not "in full charge" as the story just became here above in your condescending lecture to Tanks... Great anyway, I would love to see once, at a distance, a Royal Bengal tiger. But that does not qualify you all that much to pass all these judgments, and maybe you should consider that maybe, just maybe, us all on AH have also hunted somewhere else than Africa, with a 12 gauge or a .30-06, and been by a campfire...

Calm down buddy, stop pontificating folks, you are out of line, and no one here has special authority, including you.

And yes, the words of folks who have real life experience count more.
 
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First of all, sincerest congratulations to that young woman. You must and should be very proud of her. That mentorship requirement alone puts most PH programs to shame. Obviously, with a rifle sighted in at 40 feet, that is also the intended engagement range - or closer. She obviously will be using open sights of some form. Curious if any instinctive shooting is taught. We no longer use the technique in the US Army, which was taught to many infantrymen in Vietnam, because of the now universal use of optical sights of one form or another with single aimpoint alignment which allows target-focused aimed fire which is very quick for close quarters engagement. That is much more difficult with traditional iron sights.

The requirement you describe is essentially the same as that for a classic stopping rifle. Due to the restrictions put on the use of such a firearm by trail guides, it is even more likely that the rifle will only be employed at close quarters, unlike a PH trying to drop or slow an escaping elephant or buffalo at eighty to a hundred yards.

In that situation, with those two choices, and limited to solids, I would opt for the .404 as well, and pray I hit the brain whatever engagement technique or bullet design I was employing. I personally would prefer a 500 for such duty.

But I am not. I am a client. As much as I may fantasize about going to Africa and steely-eyed standing the charge of an enraged buffalo or elephant, that is very much my secondary responsibility. The actual mission I am required to fulfill to the best of my ability is placing that first shot - not the last one - exactly where it needs to go. The rifle with which I can do that most consistently is a scoped .375 or 40 something. I personally find the .375 so much more versatile for the rest of the hunt, that I prefer it.

I personally see no difference between using a 300 or 325 gr solid from a 375 or a 400 or 420 gr bullet from a 400 should things go south. None of those bullets is likely to turn a buffalo or an elephant. The thing needs to be brained or in the case of a buff, perhaps have its neck broken. With my illuminated scope turned to zero, I have an excellent close engagement system. With the 375, I also might just get off a second indexed shot a tad quicker than I could with the 404.

I wish your daughter every success. That is a calling which carries enormous responsibility, and is in many ways, far more dangerous than the typical PH with a big game ticket in his pocket.
Thank you.

Yes the rifles are ZKK602 actions and have the pop up rear sights in the receiver. These will be drilled out to be like a Ghist ring and not a peep sight. These will be the backup sight.

Primary sight she will test an Aimpoint H2 and see how that goes. This allows using both eyes open and bear in mind we are talking 12m distance.
 
Relax Soumya, take a deep breath!

I clearly touched a nerve in my first post when I titled it "Always the same tired 100 year old discussion..." and you have since been nothing but patronizing, insulting, etc.

And you DO tend to go round and round, repeating always the same question, despite members answering it, each in their own way, time and again.

I am not the only one. Any person whom you perceive is challenging you in the slightest receives the same superiority treatment.

Calm down buddy, stop lecturing folks, you are out of line, and no one here has special authority, including you.

And yes, the words of folks who have real life experience count more.

So, OK, in your own exact words, you saw "once, at a distance, a Royal Bengal tiger". Great! I would love to see once, at a distance, a Royal Bengal tiger, but that does not qualify you all that much...
Careful, though. Even though he used his real name as his username for YEARS, and it’s still public all over the website in probably hundreds of threads...

He went and told the moderators that I was releasing his personal information?

Simply because I found an article he shared to be useless and bad information and so rudely addressed him as Mr. xxxx

Silly to me.
 
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I would say in modern times, the "bigger is always better" idea is incredibly rare. Ive spent the last 12 years as an avid member of the "large bore community" and have yet to hear a single person honestly say "bigger is always better" in a manner that wasn't a "straw man" to prop up their own argument for using smaller guns.

Id wager more than 90% of hunters follow the "use the smallest gun legally allowed" philosophy. The 375 H&H is the most popular largely because its the legal minimum. If people were allowed to hunt cape buffalo with a 338 WM, most would.
You call that little 8 gauge of yours a " big bore!" Hah!
Okay, I'm joking. That monster is a vicious beast that I could barely hang on to.

One thing though. Up until recently, Mozambique did not have any requirement for minimum caliber for any game. It would have been legal but most people did not use a .30-06 or .338 WM for buffalo or or other large dangerous animals.
 
Careful, though. Even though he used his real name as his username for YEARS, and it’s still public all over the website in probably hundreds of threads...

He went and told the moderators that I was releasing his personal information?

Simply because I found an article he shared to be useless and bad information and so rudely addressed him as Mr. Sarkar...

Silly to me.
See what an unscrupulous person you are, digging for others information and hiding your own profile.
 
See what an unscrupulous person you are, digging for others information and hiding your own profile.
Just relax, AH is a fun place!

I was not and have not been "digging"for anything, you have been an active member for years, We have chatted before about rifles and your 9.3x62.

You get very defensive in a bad way! All I am saying is lately you start threads, and when they don’t go your way you throw a fit.

Its all good - lets just move on
 
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Relax? I'm perfectly relaxed. You seem to be the one who has written an entire essay explaining how relaxed you are.

And I have to admit, I do enjoy the part where you accuse me of being patronizing while simultaneously explaining to me what does and does not qualify as hunting experience. The irony is doing some fairly heavy lifting here.
As for the tiger yes, I saw it at a distance. I never claimed otherwise in my original story. The “full charge” reference was clearly about the experiences I have had with wildlife and hunting parties over the years, not some attempt to rewrite history and turn a distant tiger sighting into a scene from The Ghost and the Darkness. But thank you for the forensic investigation.
And no, I don't think having hunted elephant, Africa, or DG gives anyone a monopoly on “real life experience.” That was actually my point. Apparently that part got lost somewhere between your deep breath and your lecture.
What I find amusing is the assumption that because someone has different experiences, they must therefore be speaking from ignorance.

And as for “no one here has special authority” completely agree. Including you. Including me. Including anyone else who happens to have a particularly impressive hunting résumé.
So perhaps we can dispense with the amateur psychology, the “take a deep breath” routine, and the credential-checking, and simply disagree like grown men.

You have your experiences.

I have mine.

Neither of us needs a certificate from the other to validate them.
 

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Hornedfrogbbq wrote on Rhoyland4's profile.
Do you mind me asking what auction you are referencing? I'm not in the market for any of those rifles...just curious.

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K_P wrote on Buckleyguy12's profile.
Good morning from Montana.

I'm looking at a post from 2018 where you were looking for a lefty Winchester in .375 H&H Magnum. I'm selling mine. My email is [redacted] in the event that you're still searching for a unicorn.

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Gents, if you book and pay your deposit before the end of this year , you can have the bigger cull package for the 2026 price! https://www.africahunting.com/threa...griffiths-safaris-starting-at-us-2-560.96285/
I am currently in Northern Cape scouting a hunting area, we will have lots of amazing hunting opportunities for 2027! I will post updated available dates soon!
 
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