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None....... All were Raptors, all did extensive damage, as much as a medium can do..... all died, but not much difference...... Not impressive on buffalo. A ESP does not play by any stability rules..... You see, it is a #13 Solid on one end, Raptor on the other end, and the addition of a Talon...

In 2009 I developed the 500 MDM, which is a 2.8 inch RUM case, uses a .500 caliber bullet. Not .510, but .500............ The rifles are Winchester M70 RUM actions with 20 inch barrels as standard. These rifles require a Accurate Innovations Stock with the full length aluminum chassis...

Buffalo are the supreme bullet test medium........and can soak up punishment like no other animal I have ever encountered. It takes Caliber to get their attention. I had very good results in Africa with the 9.3 and the CEB 210 ESP Raptors. Internal damage was extreme for a medium...

Wet Print mix that I have been using for over 25 years, same mix with all tests................

I developed my 9.3 B&M in 2009. I was way to busy with real calibers to mess with it much, and certainly had too much field work to do with various 416s, 458s, and 500s to even take 9.3 to the field for testing.......... And by then we had come a long way with the Cutting Edge Raptors and CEB...

Mark....... Small correction, I think, if I am reading correctly, the test where 458 out penetrated the 416 was Barnes Flat Nose Solids........ Not Nosler, and most of the other bullets shown were Cutting Edge Solids #13 Nose profile...... Nosler solids are hit and miss, sometimes ok, sometimes...

Hi @PerH I personally did not have much to do with the CEB 6.5 bullet, my friend commissioned most of that endeavor. Yes you are 100% correct it was the bullet used by Bill Jones on the hunt with Boddington, my friend was, or is friends with Bill, had the bullet made and loaded the ammo for...

Let me take a second to either muddy the water or maybe clear it up a little.... might can go either way depending.... LOL.... I started doing Terminal test work in or around the mid 1990s, and primarily with anything that I might be going to the field with, or might have need for in the near...

Mark.............. You make an excellent point that the CEB/North Forks might yield a different result.......... Different nose profiles react differently to velocity. The FN Barnes profile does not show a lot of reaction to increased velocity The CEB and North Fork do react to increased...

Hi Mark.......... again I apologize, I did not read everything in the thread, just the first posts and the post where I am mentioned........ and its a good thing that some of you mention the other various factors involved..... 416 caliber is more sensitive than 458 caliber with twist rates and...

Apology, I missed that somewhere further down you specified the SAME BULLET. I cannot give you a CEB Comparison, as stated above, I have never tested the 500 gr CEBs..... in fact, never even seen one. And I cannot give you a direct comparison for Hornady either. And I am not sure what you...

OK, which 416 bullet are you talking about? What 458 Bullet are you talking about? You must realize that All Solids are Not Created Equal................. Are you beginning to see some issues with such a broad statement as 416 vs 458..... Now you will not see any...

The Origin ........... OK, so far, this thread leaves much to be desired....... I assume we are talking about solids.......I see SD (Sectional Density) mentioned several times...... but I see little about bullet design and other 7 Factors of Solid Terminal Performance. Just to make a...

Early in the test work and search for the perfect solid mainly in big bore rifle cartridges, we noticed that a sharp edge solid (brass or copper) would loose stability in the last 5%-10% of total penetration. By putting a radius on the edge of the meplat, breaking that sharpness, the bullet was...

Nosler told you a story........... I tested this bullet some years ago, thinking it was something to play around with in my Super Shorts. It did not test well at all in my opinion. Now, this was several years ago, maybe it is possible they changed the formula, I don't know. Not sure why...

Right around 40 years ago, my Aunt/Uncle and cousins lived in Pikeville Kentucky. My Uncle owned a General Store there, he liked guns and shooting, and fighting roosters. In those days he would often buy or trade for guns of all sorts, and had more guns than anyone I could imagine at the...

I am curious as well....... @CZDiesel , do keep us posted when you try these out......... After what you might learn, we might figure out a way to test them later for pressures........ depending on the outcome.....

Right to a point..... velocity is only part of the equation and not the whole. Pressures would be the main concerns here. You can do some amazing things, I have run pressures at over 80000 PSI in some guns, and they work fine, did not lock up and showed little signs of 80000 PSI. Which is...

At a glance I would say no, not without being well over Max Pressures, and especially in a 21-22 inch barrel as stated. I have never tested or even fired the 500 CEB SOlids and the matching 470 Raptors. After working with the 450/420 combination first designed, I never seen any reason for...

LOVE................. I first went to the field with 458 Winchester in 2000, Zimbabwe and later that year Mozambique. I was not after elephant or buffalo at the time, but lions primarily. I took 3 lions that year with a Winchester M70 458 Winchester 22 inch gun that I had picked up at a gun...

In 45 ACP I use the 200 gr CEB FN Solids and in 9mm CEB has a new 115 gr FN Solid that is superb, both tested and gave top end results........ CEB Had a Gen 1 and Gen II, Gen I has been discontinued . Both were top end. We believe in Solids and are very serious about having them...

I fell in love with Myrtle many years ago, the 500 MDM Myrtle stock has been completely refinished and checkered. These photos showed in in "white" condition, invariably Myrtle tends to darken and turn color with age....... I have another Myrtle on a 416 B&M and my Favorite is a 500 B&M that...

Winchester M70 19 Inch 500 MDM Myrtle Stock...... GunKote Matte Black finish...... FYI, all my rifle stocks are done by Accurate Innovations with full length aluminum chassis

I love lever guns, always have. I have a few. No, I don't have a "Tactical Lever Gun", but I can see some advantages to such a thing, even though it does not particularly appeal to me. The handguard and rail provide great versatility to add sights, lasers and very important lights. Very...

50 B&M...................

JWP.......... That is a "Hammer" of a load......... I need to look at the line of Hammers in .358...... would be good in 358 RUM.........

Terminal stability is the issue with Round Nose solids......... When a Solid begins terminal penetration they become "Front End Drive"......... the round nose will at some point turn off course, that point may be after it completes the mission asked of it, but it also may be long before the...

What must be understood is the method, or mode of action, that these bullets cause or produce trauma.... For trauma inflicting bullets it can be broken down into 4 different methods or modes of action. #1. Conventional Expanding Premium Bullets............ Everyone understands this, one...

OK OK, I am with you now, I know what you mean........... Yes, basically making a brass Cup Point... a good thing, would be stronger than copper, would not be as prone to deform...... My friend Sam made some of these similar to what you are talking about, I believe they were for his 500...

No doubt about it, 75% meplat will cause more damage and trauma up front, you are on the right path for that. The issue may be feed/function with that larger meplat. We know for a fact, that .458 caliber +, a 65% meplat of caliber will actually self stabilize itself during terminal...

Quick easy answer....... More...... BUT........ all other factors of solid penetration must be equal before SD has any true effect........ A #13 500 gr Solid at 2300 fps will penetrate deeper than a 450 gr at 2300 fps with all other factors equal.............. A 550 #13 Solid at 2300 fps...

I believe all the CEB, Cutting Edge Bullets, Safari Solids are Brass........ the handgun solids are copper, and there is no such thing as CEB cast anything...... Some of the smaller caliber solids, such as .308 and I believe 6.5, I have some .224 caliber, all those are Copper. Cast, hard or...

2000 + muzzle............ and if you are using a single shot or some such, then add a Talon Tip which gives you 125-150 fps at 50 yard impacts...........

25 or so....... and near 100 or so Asiatic............. Blades. not petals............ Does it work? With Extreme Prejudice...Deadly Wicked, mass trauma inflicted......... I have no idea...... I am not in the least familiar with the cartridge........... from the velocity you quote, I have...

100s, on top of hundreds....... Since 2011 and before......... But personally, I do not recommend a Raptor for your application, you are just not running enough velocity to take advantage of the devastation that a Raptor can produce. You are better off with a good CEB 400 gr Solid that...

You are treading on very dangerous ground if you are even considering Hawk for buffalo, I would have concerns about Hawk for Jack Rabbits........... You are truly wasting time and money on that effort......They will flatten like pancakes on buffalo hide/shoulder, and they will not...

Thanks for adding Lance...... I wanted this particular bullet specifically for my 458 Super Shorts, where I can run it at just over 2300 fps. There is a .474 caliber 350 gr and a .500 caliber 375 gr. One of my Sons has a 475 Super Short he used in Zimbabwe for buffalo, hippo and elephant and...

Wow, @Hunter-Habib incredible words, appreciated beyond what you can imagine. Thank you. Now, lets broach a subject that you mentioned about Sectional Density earlier, so we all have a better understanding of just how things work.............. Concerning Solids; Right now there are 8...

@Mountaineer ........ Yes, if you have time and can get it done, the 420 Raptor/450 CEB #13 Solid is The GOLD STANDARD for Buffalo in .458 caliber. You don't need heavier weight in either Raptor/Solid at all. And right, you would not have to be as careful, as I would like you to be, even...

@Hunter-Habib I completely understand your thoughts here, I would have been exactly the same 15 years ago, and actually had lots of reservations myself until putting similar bullets to buffalo. Let me explain; First, for this exercise I am keeping this directed to TWO Objectives. 458 and...

Raptors are just wicked. I normally like to see a minimum of 18 inches penetration in my test medium for buffalo. And this is based on years of experience with mostly conventional expanding bullets. Raptors are not conventional in any way. In correlation between my test medium and animal...

Get a bigger gun! LOL.... OK, jest...... Get a Larger Caliber is more true to statement. OK OK.... Yes, it will exit broadsides, but will leave a tiny little hole......(Ok already, we know)......... LOL..... Yes in 375 caliber it is more than enough bullet and will out penetrate and out...

No, that is just not exactly true.......... There is a big difference between "Will do just Fine" and "It Can"........... I concede only that in the very best of circumstances that a TSX "Can", I also stated that I had .224 caliber bullets that "Can"......... I also stated I had tested a 420...

Before I retired from hunting, I would fire from 300-500 rounds through the rifles I was planning to work with as normal operating preparing all aspects of the rifle, sights, bullet. Every session would involve full magazine, and full operation of the bolt or other mechanisms to make sure...

Perhaps, however I personally would put this at a very low percentage of probability. I would be extremely prejudiced that it is more than likely the Bean Counters. From a reliable source in those days I was told that they had a couple of complaints concerning a certain model of rifle that...

Currently nearly 91% of you choose a Flat Nose. This is quite a change since the days I was involved in what I call the "Bullet Wars". There had been a smattering of folks before me that would advocate for the FN Solids over the RN, before 2006-2007. In those days it would have been the...

Yes Toby, I think I posted above before I saw this post, does that answer your question, or do we need more? North Fork and Hydro, limited penetration solids, not deep divers........ To drive Deep and Mostly consistently straight. That is the "Search"....... Not all solids are created...

And yet Another very Wise and well known by experience statement that also should be repeated, and recognized for its wisdom and advice. There are some very well placed individuals here, it would be to ones advantage to listen to them Thank you @fourfive8 Elephant, only proper designed Flat...

I am in 100% Agreement with every word by @Hunter-Habib It bears repeating............

So as to not confuse...... This is about Solids only...... @intj As for hard cold absolute "Data"....... a little bit, but not enough to be 100% sure........ enough experience to believe that your statement has truth to it. I believe, and suspect strongly that you reach a point with any given...