Call Me "The Waffler"

Discussion in 'Up To .375' started by tarbe, May 28, 2014.

  1. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    Well, I was pretty well set that I was going to use the good old reliable 220gr Nosler Partition in my 300 H&H next year in RSA. Impala to Eland.

    However, I just put in another order for some more Barnes 180gr TTSX....I will have about 325 of them on the bench after this order arrives.

    What it is coming down to is the ballistic coefficient; .484 vs .351.

    Now, I am not one to seek out long shots...I believe in removing as much possibility for error as possible. But when you travel halfway around the world to hunt some animals you may never have a chance at again, why not put everything in your favor that is reasonably possible?

    If I were elk hunting in the black timber of north Idaho, no problem. But I am pretty sure there are some fairly long shots possible in the Eastern Cape, and the improved velocity retention and flatter trajectory of the TTSX over the semi-spitzer (almost round nosed) 220gr Partition might come in kinda handy.

    I won't get into load development until the weather cools again in Houston (late November)...want it to be close to what I will have in EC of RSA in June. I am quite certain I can find loads for either bullet that will shoot quite well....so assume accuracy is not an issue with either bullet.

    Which bullet would you go with, assuming equal accuracy? 220gr Nosler at 2,750 - 2,800 or 180gr TTSX at 3,050 -3,100 or so? Impala to Eland, with most all the common stuff in between.

    I don't think one could go wrong with either...but it is fun to think about! :)
     
  2. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    One distinct advantage to the Barnes...they don't get all banged up or go to pieces if you hit an "invisible" twig just in front of your animal. They tend to do better at getting through in one piece that is still able to kill.
     
  3. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Tarbe,

    Not being an expert on anything in this world (or out of this world for that matter), my opinion can perhaps be taken with a grain of salt.

    My personal minimum for eland would begin at .33 diameter/250 grains/2400 fps, approximately.
    But, if for some reason I were to select a .30 bullet for eland specifically, it would be the 180 gr Swift A-Frame at minimum and 200 gr so much the better, with of course the 220 gr #1 choice for a .30 in my cranky opinion.

    Be that as it may, either of the bullets/loads you mention will likely sack an eland with one well placed shot, despite my opinion.

    Is your PH a rifle/bullet person?

    Most of the ones I have met are tip-top on that subject and happy to recommend bullets/loads for such as the .300 H&H (they generally like that one very much over in Africa from what they have told me around many camp fires and braais).

    Best of luck in June,
    Velo Dog.
     
  4. Royal27

    Royal27 GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    This points out the advantage of NOT reloading. I didn't have the 220 option and so just went with the ttsx. :)
     
  5. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    No Barnes TTSX do not get banged up and go to pieces at any point in time.

    Proof in the Pudding! Small to large.

    180 TTSX .300WM
    416 Yards on Vaal Rhebuck.
    That is a very small target and with a little wind thrown in.

    80 Yards on Red Hartebeest
    Right through all the bush. I did not even hesitate to pull the trigger.
    Two branches and never deviated at all.
    1 inch hole going in and coming out.

    180 Yards on Eland. Quartering slightly away broadside. Under the skin on the opposite shoulder.

    130 Grain TTSX .270
    450 Yards on Blue Wildebeest. Broadside Heart Shot. (To quote a buddy; DRT.)

    No follow up required on anything. One shot each.
     
  6. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    Dog

    I figure the kinetic energy at the muzzle is comparable for both loads...the energy at the target will always be higher from the Barnes due to the higher BC, and I am pretty sure from the limited testing I have done that the Barnes will penetrate as deeply, if not slightly more so, compared to the Partition.

    The only advantage I can think of for the partition is the secondary projectiles as the front half of the Nosler goes grenade. Well, the Nosler has the nostalgia advantage for me, too.

    Why exactly do you think the 220gr is best? Do you think the partition retaining 60% is going to out-penetrate the 180 that retains 99%? Or is it a wound channel shape advantage?

    Thanks for your thoughts!
     
  7. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    Sometimes life is easier without choices!

    But maybe less interesting?? :)

    I have to add to my grey hair somehow...this is as good a way as I can think of!
     
  8. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    No doubt your good shooting deserves much of the credit for the above success.
     
  9. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Confidence in the load and rifle make a huge contribution.
    Perfect rests on bipods, all the time in the world and a range finder for all the long shots.
    Off handing the Hartebeest was a no brainer at that distance.
    Sitting for the Eland.

    It was so nice to know that the bullet would go right through that bush and do its job.
    Cross on the spot and squeeze.
     
  10. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR GOLD BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Oh, I forgot.

    180 TTSX .300 WM
    Giraffe 200 Yards. Heart/Lung Broadsides

    Required Two shots.
    One in each side as he swapped directions to escape.
    The bullets were never found by the skinners.
     
  11. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    I have personal experience with an X-bullet and brush.

    I was hunting whitetails in my native Wisconsin. I got a fleeting shot on the last morning of my hunt. I was sure I had a clear shot, but in the swampy bottom land in the northwoods, it is easy to be fooled!

    At the shot I lost sight of the deer. Shortly after, I hear what sounds like someone hitting a log with a stick. It was the spine shot deer trying to get away, over a fallen tree, with just the forelegs working. Fortunately I could very quickly finish the job.

    When I skinned the deer, the perfect silhouette of a 235gr .375 X bullet was in the hide about halfway back between the shoulder and rump.

    My bullet hit something and tumbled, but retained its integrity, given the perfectly shaped hole in the hide.

    If the bullet had suffered severe deformation I could well have had a miss or a running, but wounded deer. Instead, it dropped on the spot.

    Some luck definitely involved, but the Barnes was largely responsible for the positive outcome.
     
  12. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Hands down the TTSX, it's just a better bullet. The extra weight will just sink the bullet faster on the 220 grain bullet, the Partition bullet to me is overrated, especially for the cost per bullet and performance.
     
  13. Royal27

    Royal27 GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    That might help explain why I want to learn how to reload. ;)
     
  14. Johnny7604

    Johnny7604 AH Veteran

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    Accuracy being equal I would go with the ttsx. It's a proven performer and the flatter trajectory would be helpful. Running a few numbers I am seeing the following with your velocity numbers and a 1 inch high at 100 yard zero.

    220 Partition @ 2750
    250 yards = 5 inch drop
    300 yards = 11 inch drop
    350 yards = 18 inch drop

    180 TTSX @ 3050
    250 yards = 2.5 inch drop
    300 yards = 6 inch drop
    350 yards = 11 inch drop

    Range estimation errors in the field happen all the time. Even with a rangefinder sometimes you'll pick up part of the landscape. Flatter trajectory can turn a miss or wounded critter into a DRT (to quote a wise man).

    I know it made a difference on my common blesbok this year. If I would have used slower 300 grainer instead of the flatter 250's we would have been chasing a 3 legged blesbok rather than taking our pictures with it.

    Just some food for thought.

    John
     
  15. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

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    tarbe,

    I have killed so many critters with the Nosler Partition that I could never say anything bad about them. It would be like turning my back on a life long friend. But as much as I would take a '58 Corvette, I'd be a fool to think it could keep up with the latest version.

    My guess is if you broadside an Eland at reasonable range with the Partition, it's going to die. But when you recover the bullet, it's likely going to be like the 7mm 160gr Partition I dug out of my Shiras moose so many years ago, it's going to weight about 1/2 of it's original weight. Nothing wrong with that, that's how the Partition was designed.

    The TTSX is likely going to be 170gr or more and in the end will give you better penetration with a better wound channel. Thus giving you a quicker kill, always a better thing in my mind. So with Eland on the menu and the potential for longer shots, go with the TTSX if you can find an accurate load.
     
  16. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    I hear you Phil. I started shooting Partitions in 1974...so the nostalgia is very real for me.

    Not taking the Partitions to Africa almost seems like leaving my rifle at home.

    But, I have had some good success with the X variants, and I can read/learn from other's experiences. And like you, I know the latest generation of Corvette can run circles around the Corvettes of my youth! Technology has not stood still in the automotive world or the bullet world!

    Given the variety of game I will be chasing, and the likelihood of varied ranges and difficult angles/brush etc, the TTSX just seems like the more versatile projectile.
     
  17. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    Hi again Tarbe,

    I was referring to the 220 gr Swift A-Frame, not so much the Nosler 220 grain.

    I will guess that the 180 grain TTSX would out penetrate the Nosler Partition.
    Heck, it seems like it would out-penetrate the 22o gr A-Frame (cuts it's way through instead of pushing it's way through).
    However, the Nosler 220 gr Partition has a very fine reputation here in Alaska and I like Nosler Partitions in general (but I believe the A-Frame is a lot tougher).
    My first trip to Africa (Namibia), I used only 180 gr NP in a .300 H&H at a bit over 2800 fps with incredible success/satisfaction (but there were no eland in the area and my rifle did not group A-Frames well for some reason).

    My distrust of hollow point bullets in general is almost life-long, beginning with reviewing incidents where hand gun hollow points sometimes failed to expand in criminals and then, personal experiences and hunting companion's experiences with incidents where HP rifle bullets failed to expand now and then in animals.
    I know the TTSX has a plastic cone in the otherwise hollow point so, perhaps it is not really a hollow point but, perhaps it is.
    Reportedly when they work, they really work spectacularly.
    Reportedly when they fail, they really fail spectacularly.
    More than one PH has told me face to face that they do not like TSX/TTSX bullets because they must be driven at very high speed to deform.
    Too low an impact velocity and you have an ice pick type wound.

    They said those also must not hit the animal at much less than a square angle or they sometimes bend the tip slightly, thereby causing them to act like a FMJ Military Spitzer and you again only have an ice pick type wound channel.
    I am told this type of failure to expand is almost guaranteed if the animal is caked in mud AND the angle is less than straight-on.

    My point is that I have personally had, and have also witnessed such roaring success with older design ("cup & core") bullets, that I simply cannot see any legitimate need to try anything else (for me personally).
    I know I should not poo-poo mono-metal bullets without trying them but again, I feel that what I have been using all along has been so effective that, there is no real point in trying something else........"If it works, don't fix it."
    But right here I will add that I lean toward larger calibers for larger animals, coupled with high sectional density bullets (long and heavy for their caliber) and in my way of thinking, that is a corner stone to my success.
    (You won't catch me trying to change the ball on a bumper hitch with a pair of tweezers).

    Again, either of your two bullets will likely work perfectly when striking the critters in the vitals but if I were hunting eland with a .30, I would prefer the heaviest Swift A-Frame, from 180 gr or heavier that my rifle will shoot accurately.

    My parting shot is that I would not worry about kinetic energy, muzzle energy or any other mathematical calculations but, instead I would worry about accuracy first and then whether or not my bullets will deliver as advertised.

    My best regards,
    Velo Dog.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  18. Norwegianwoods

    Norwegianwoods SILVER SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    The problem both with the 220 grains Partition and the 220 grains A-frame, is the low bc for longer shots.
    I am personally no fan of the Partition.
    I very much like the A-frame, but it is not the right bullet for long ranges.
    If I was to hunt in thick bush only where all the shots would be rather short, I think the 220 grains A-frame is a great choice.

    But for longer ranges, the 180 or even the 165 grains Barnes TTSX bullets wins hands down.
    Assuming the 180 grains TTSX leave the barrel at 3050 fps, it still has 2100 fps and 1780 ft lb energy at 500 yards.
    Still enough for the TTSX to expand well.
    The TTSX doesn't rely on hydrostatic pressure to start expanding like the TSX does because of the plastic tip.

    To many people(some PHs included ;)) think that the barnes X, TSX and TTSX are the same bullets, and they are totally wrong.

    The TSX needs more speed.
    To many hunters use the same weight TSX bullets as they do when using cup and core bullets in cartridges with moderate speeds.
    Even using heavy for cartridge TSX bullets in moderate speed cartridges.
    Then they complain about not getting enough expansion at longer ranges.
    A 200 grain TSX in a 308 win is not the best choice of bullet for that cartridge...

    When using TSX bullets, you need to use a light for the cartridge bullets and even better, is to use light TSX bullets in fast cartridges.

    When using moderate speed cartridges and also when shooting long range with fast cartridges, I highly recommend the TTSX bullets as they both have higher bc and because they need less speed to expand well.

    I use TTSX in all my guns if I want to use a Barnes bullet as it works well at most speeds.
     
  19. Royal27

    Royal27 GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    ^^^ You learn something new every day....

    I didn't realize that the TTSX required less energy to expand, although it makes perfect sense. Makes me feel even better about using them now.
     
  20. tarbe

    tarbe AH Elite

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    I think the TSX was a real improvement over the X, and the TTSX is a real improvement over the TSX.

    I had trouble getting the old X bullets to shoot well and fouling was bad in my rifles. I gave up on them.

    I had good luck with the TSX and actually took some critters with them

    I have only killed one deer with a TTSX, but all reports indicate they are very reliable and have a wider usefull application range than even the TSX (impact velocity, angle of entrance, etc).
     

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