470 capstick

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by Johnny reb, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. Johnny reb

    Johnny reb AH Senior Member

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    Does anyone have any experience with this chambering. If so whats the good and bad thanks
  2. Dr.FrankB-Mimic

    Dr.FrankB-Mimic AH Member

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    I am also very interested in it; Beeing used at 416 Rigby, I am afraid of high pressures, and ejection problems, that theoretically may occur. Any esperienze should be' appreciated
  3. colorado

    colorado AH Veteran

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    I think all of those issues that initially cropped up with the 416 Rem have long been solved by using modern powders many many years ago. The 470 Capstick is a lovely round and you can load it down to 470 NE levels (500g bullet at 2150 fps) and it will kick less than a 458 Lott. Buying factory ammo however might be very sporty
  4. Johnny reb

    Johnny reb AH Senior Member

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  5. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

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    Sorry, I really am, but it is another case of re-inventing the wheel. Unless you handload it is another useless cartridge. I really don't mean to be a dick about this but, c'mon there are so many more chamberings to choose from that you (might actually find ammo for if your got lost in transit).
  6. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Come on Scott beat him about his head and shoulders brutally until you have his attention then tell him what you really think. :laughing:
  7. Johnny reb

    Johnny reb AH Senior Member

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    I know it's not a common chambering with ammo available everywhere. It not a cartridge that I need it's just one of those cartridges that intrigues me. I would like too hear from someone with first hand knowledge
  8. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

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    Bobby, I know how I sound "that guy" :eek:hbrother: it's just that maybe since I don't handload i really just don't get it.:bonk: It may be close to a 470 NE but so is the 458 Lott, and if you want less recoil there is the 458 WM and the whole array of 416's. Then if that is still a recoil issue then there are the 375 H&H and the Ruger. Need a little more then there is the 405 or the Jeffery. Again, it may just be me and some of the horror stories I have read about ammo getting lost in transit, but, I just can't see taking the chance when there are more "common" rounds available. It probably sounds odd coming from a guy who favors the 35 Whelen, but I have checked and it is available in SA if my ammo get's lost. It is just an opinion, and I don't mean to piss him off or deter him from a purchase or anything like that. I have NO experience with the 470 Capstick, but there are so many tried and true calibers out there. I still have to go back to what I stated earlier, if you take any oddball/wildcat/uncommon round to any hunting destination there is that chance that you may end up renting a rifle.

    Didn't mean to beat anyone up,,,,,,,, yet.....:laughing:
  9. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I know what you mean, that's why when I got my first real DG rifle it was a 375 H&H you can find that bullet just about anywhere in Africa. But if he wants somthing to play with at home well hell go for it!
  10. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

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    Thank you for not taking it the wrong way, I was just voicing an opinion about the ammo thing. :thumb:
  11. 35bore

    35bore AH Legend

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    I concur
  12. Johnny reb

    Johnny reb AH Senior Member

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    I understood what you were saying about ammo availability. I guess it might just be a case of it just being one of those things of look what I've got don't really know I' m just fascinated with big bores and that's one that not too many people have. I didn't take any offense too any comments
  13. colorado

    colorado AH Veteran

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    Based on the comments on ammo availability here it seems like no one should own anything but a 375 H&H and that's certainly not a bad option. I plan to bring my 500 Jeffery and a 375 H&H backup rifle (have my cake and eat it too!)
  14. Royal27

    Royal27 BRONZE SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    I'm wanting the .458 Lott for the same reason. Just to have it, or just in case an elephant comes and starts tearing down a tree, here in my Atlanta GA, yard!!! LOL

    Besides, I want to see if I can handle one" :)
  15. bebo

    bebo AH Veteran

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    Hello, I know a Hannibal (A2) .470 Capstick to sell (here in Europa) 3780 USD.
    Is it The price, a good price or Forget !
    Not to hunt for the fun !! Is it quite different than the .458 Lott for instance ? Do it hit stronger than my (new) 416RM ?
    Your opinion please
  16. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Although it is not very flat shooting because of slow velocities, it is flat enough for use out to 250 yards (230 m). It transmits an extreme amount of power at over 6,000 ftï½·lbf (8,000 J) and is designed for use on dangerous game out to 200 yards (180 m).[1] Like other large cartridges, the high energy performance is accompanied by a large amount of recoil.

    The Capstick is very similar in dimension to the .470 Ackley, but where the Ackley uses a 600-grain (39 g) bullet, the Capstick uses a lighter 500-grain (32 g) bullet for a better trajectory.[1]

    The Cartridge[edit]The 470 Capstick is a belted magnum with the same rim and belt size as a .375 H&H. The case has a length of 2.800 inches (71.1 mm), and the overall cartridge length is 3.65 inches (93 mm). A cartridge drawing is shown below for dimensions.

    The 470 Capstick will fit in the same length action as the .375 H&H Magnum and .458 Lott. Actually the .458 Lott is a good measuring stick for the 470 Capstick. The Capstick has a bullet that has 7% more cross sectional area than the .458 Lott, which, in theory, would result in more shock transfer to game and a larger wound channel.. As for powder capacity and velocity, they are similar, with the 470 Capstick having a slight edge in powder capacity and therefore a slight edge in theoretical velocity. However, for field use the 470 Capstick and .458 Lott should have identical performance because the differences between them are rather small.

    That being said, the differences in field results between the .458 Winchester Magnum and the .470 Nitro Express should be nonexistent, because both push a 500-grain (32 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) But some people have noted an observable difference in the way shot game behaves with those two cartridges, possibly due to the greater cross sectional area of the .474 bullet. If desired, the 470 Capstick can be used to create a ballistic twin to the .470 Nitro Express, pushing a 500-grain (32 g) bullet at 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) while generating low pressure.

    For those who remember the .475 Ackley, it is similar to the 470 Capstick, except that the Capstick has a ghost shoulder which allows the cartridge to achieve excellent accuracy. Use of a ghost shoulder, rather than a continuous taper on the case wall, helps the cartridge to line up concentrically with the bore axis, contributing to accuracy.

    Although it is possible to use 600-grain (39 g) bullets in the 470 Capstick cartridge, the powder capacity is not sufficient to push 600 grains (39 g) at anything near 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) without high pressure, so this is not the best bullet weight for the Capstick. 500-grain (32 g) bullets seem to be the best all-around compromise. With full power loads, recoil is significant but not difficult to control or become accustomed to. Recoil from the cast lead bullet load shown below is almost nonexistent. For plinking or light game hunting, 400-grain (26 g) pistol bullets are a candidate, but they generate almost as much recoil as 500-grain (32 g) bullets. The advantage of 400-grain (26 g) bullets is that they are inexpensive and will open up quickly on light game. In my rifle they also tend to hit at least 6 inches (150 mm) higher than the 500-grain (32 g) bullets, creating an inconvenience for the hunter who wishes to use both bullets on the same hunting excursion.

    The Rifles[edit]Currently factory rifles in 470 Capstick are available from A-Square, from the Winchester Custom Shop and from Fuchs Fine Guns. However, that short list should not disappoint the reader because there are many options for building a nice custom rifle in .470 Capstick. Any action that can handle the .375 H&H Magnum is a suitable candidate.

    The easiest conversion is a CZ550 that came from the factory in .375 H&H Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum or .458 Lott. All that has to be done is to replace the barrel with another in 470 Capstick. Barrels are available from Lothar-Walther and Pac-Nor. A 2nd recoil lug must be added to the underside of the barrel and inletted into the forearm of the stock. The 2nd recoil lug will spread recoil that the stock is exposed to, across a wider surface area to avoid splitting the stock. Glass or steel bedding is recommended. Some minor polishing or adjusting of the ramp and rails may be needed, and then the rifle is ready to shoot. The advantage of the CZ550 conversion is that they typically hold 5 rounds in the magazine box plus one in the chamber, and very little work is usually needed to get them to feed.

    A Winchester Model 70 Classic (claw extractor) can also easily be converted to 470 Capstick. In addition to the steps above, the magazine box spring must also be replaced with one that has a traditional Z-shape instead of the curly-Q style that the factory provides. The Winchester conversion may only hold 2 cartridges in the magazine box, unless you purchase an extra deep magazine box and bottom metal from Sunny Hill, Williams Firearms, Jim Wisner or Ted Blackburn. Use of an extra deep magazine box necessitates replacement of the stock with another stock having greater depth of wood. Alternatively, it may be possible to fit 3 rounds in a model 70 conversion with the factory magazine box if the follower is replaced with one having a lower profile, or if the follower is milled to shorten it.

    Another option is to rebuild a surplus military Mauser 98 action to be a 470 Capstick dangerous game rifle. This is a very involved project and includes replacing the magazine box/bottom metal, spring and follower and opening up the receiver to match it. Further, some machining of the new magazine box may be needed, since no one makes a magazine box expressly intended to hold 4 rounds of 470 Capstick. Proper feeding is not easy to accomplish and requires a big bore expert.

    The stepped feed rails plus a modified feed ramp, achieve smooth feeding of flat nosed solid bullets in this rifle. Any of these routes can result in a very functional and very accurate dangerous game rifle. Frankly speaking, there are not a lot of gunsmiths who know how to get a big bore to feed properly, making the CZ550 conversion very attractive because there is so little to do.

    In the field[edit]The 470 Capstick is designed for use as a dangerous game cartridge but it has proven very useful on light game as well. The key is to select a bullet suitable for the game. If a bullet designed for use on cape buffalo is used on whitetails, it undoubtedly will not expand. For light game, Hawk bullets which expand quickly or 400-grain (26 g) pistol bullets may be best. When the 470 Capstick is loaded with a 500-grain (32 g) bullet to a muzzle velocity of 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) and sighted in 3 inches (76 mm) high at 100 yards (91 m), it is only about a foot low at 300 yards (270 m), giving it more effective range than many cartridges which are popular for deer and elk hunting. I have lobbed 470 Capstick bullets into game at that range, so it cannot be too difficult.

    Another consideration in choosing a bullet for hunting is the velocity window of the bullet. For example, the 500-grain (32 g) Woodleigh soft point is designed to expand at .470 Nitro Express velocities (2150 f.ps.), and if pushed to the 2,400 ft/s (730 m/s) potential of the 470 Capstick, the Woodleigh will tend to expand very quickly and sacrifice penetration. The Woodleigh soft nose was designed to expand at the lower velocities of the .470 Nitro Express, and the fact that it held together at all in the 470 Capstick is testimony to the Woodleigh's toughness. Penetration was just over 3 feet (0.91 m).

    That was taken from Wikipedia, but I think it's more powerful than the .416.
  17. bebo

    bebo AH Veteran

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    Okkkkk. Thanks a lot Enysse.
    I didn't think Wiki can help me about this cartridge ...
    Thanks for your help.;)
    I have read this thread .. That's sure this is not easy to fnd it in Africa ... We must stay "classic". ...
  18. colorado

    colorado AH Veteran

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    Winchester made some of their M70 big fives in 470 Capstick. Not sure if they were push feed or not. Here's a link to a set of them (I have no connection with this ad, just thought they were worth looking at for the engraving if nothing else. Sure are pretty ...

    Winchester Model 70 Safari Express African Big Five Complete Set - Winchester Model 70 Super Grade Rifles

    You might want to check on the AR forum, George who moderates the big bore sub forum has owned a 470 Capstick and hunted Africa with it. I believe's he's a fan. If this is a no no (referring someone to another forum, I apologize and definitely will not do it again).

    Best Regards,

    Chuck
  19. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    I think if you can find brass or ammo, it could be a great toy. The problem is finding rifle bullet components for a reasonable cost.
  20. Paw Print

    Paw Print SPONSOR AH Fanatic

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    Although I have no experience with this chambering it looks like a calibre that shouldve been much more popular.Parent case .375 h&h (same as win mag,lott and express)but a larger diameter.Pushing a bullet with that frontal area at 2300+ should make for a formiddable rifle.

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