EXPLAIN: Boxlock vs Sidelock

Patrick R

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Don't laugh please...just a question that i had in mind for many years...i accept that i don't know ANYTHING about doubles (beside their cost, they look atractive, nothing wrong with them, i like them, i want one...) so, let me ask the following.

1. How can one see on the riflle if it is a boxlock or a sidelock double? (is it physical seeable?) and if so, please show them on a photo of sketch for me?
2. Which one will be the more preferable one?
3. Which one wil be the more expensive one?
 
Bushwack

Crudely speaking, the internal bits that make it go bang are all behind the breech face on a side lock and the basic geometry goes back to the old muzzleloading days. The vast majority, i.e. 99.9999 % of side lock guns will have locating pins protruding through the side plates. If there are no visible pins, you will in the vast majority of cases, be looking at a box lock with false side plates. Even Beretta and Merkel offer such guns!

A box lock (original perfected version invented by a couple of Westley Richards' staff) has the mainspring(s) under the breech and tends to have a stronger butt stock due to the reduced inlettIng requirements.

There are far more variations in mechanism and shape for both action types than I can either recall or competently decide but what I have said above is the guts of it.
 
Very interesting. So the box lock is the more desirable?
 
Very interesting. So the box lock is the more desirable?

nope the sidelock is the most desirable as its the ultimate in the gunmakers art and way more expensive to build . the boxlock was more the working rifle back in the day. but both types are desirable if you want a double rifle ;), just the boxlock type will be cheaper. the westley droplock is another design where the mechanism can be removed from beneath the action

https://www.google.com/search?q=wes...i=y8z-VLviG8eP7AbFoYHoBA&ved=0CCMQsAQ&dpr=1.1
 
is one any more reliable than the other?
do either need regular cleaning of the mechanisms/maintenance? the kind of thing you'd do aside from sending the rifle to a gunsmith?
 
dont know never done it :D but if you have a H&H royal double i dont think it would bother you..........;)


This is why I'm bolt trash.:D
 
nope the sidelock is the most desirable as its the ultimate in the gunmakers art and way more expensive to build . the boxlock was more the working rifle back in the day. but both types are desirable if you want a double rifle ;), just the boxlock type will be cheaper. the westley droplock is another design where the mechanism can be removed from beneath the action

https://www.google.com/search?q=wes...i=y8z-VLviG8eP7AbFoYHoBA&ved=0CCMQsAQ&dpr=1.1

With the more complicated design and build process of the sidelock, would the boxlock not be more reliable? It's an engineer's perspective, simpler solutions that are just as effective as more complicated solutions are always better. But really in the end, I have no idea, just curious.
 
phil from what i have heard and read they are both very reliable. the detachable sidelocks probably made it easier to try a field repair in the old days but not sure on that. the easiest are probably the westley drop lock as you can carry spares and just swop them over if something breaks , but that isnt a cheaper way of getting into doubles either. as i said the boxlocks were more the working rifle due to price and perceived extra reliability , but there were enough ivory/commercial hunters and game dept people and phs who used sidelock doubles without any problems back in the "old days" , and some who use sidelocks now which are older than us with no problems. some of those in use now were used by the game dept and phs way back then.
 
In the old times, some side locks were cased with an extra set of locks, just in case you had a failure and were far from a competent gunsmith. It is very easy to replace them.
 
The group here has done a fairly good job of describing boxlocks and sidelocks. Some additional elaboration:

1.) The box lock was made by Westley Richards staff, Mr. Anson & Mr. Deeley. This was around circa 1880. The box lock specifically has only 3-4 parts per lock which makes for simplicity.

2.) The sidelock has enumerable patents upon it and many, many alterations. The most famous and currently duplicated rendition is usually the Holland & Holland 7-pin sidelock that has been used since off-patent by almost everybody.

To jump slightly off topic here, there are also numerous other components that have been proven the most reliable that are now used in almost all guns. The Anson Plunger and Deeley Latch are the two most ubiquitous methods for attaching a forend to a double gun (thanks again to Westley Richards & Co.). About 99% of double guns in the past 80 years feature one of those two options. The southgate ejector system has also been proven to be the most reliable and is used quite regularly in most fine guns.

I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that Boxlock and Sidelock are like Pepsi & Coke. Naturally, there are also other beverages out there and other lock systems also. Arguably the most famous "collector" lock technologies are the Dickson Round Action and the Mortimer Skeleton Action. Add to that the very famous Westley Richards "Drop Lock" which is not really a box lock at all but a gun that looks like a box lock with the ability to slide a button on the lock and watch the guts fall out the bottom in two separate assemblies. The novelty of the drop lock is easy internal cleaning and the option of having a spare set made in case you're in the bush and you have a gun failure occur.

As to value: The most valuable guns in history are sidelocks made in the UK between WWI and WWII by the "big 5" makers: Dickson, Holland, Woodward, Boss and Purdey. The guns were all off-patent by that point and the bits and pieces were the best amalgamation of parts that could be had with the most mature, expert workforce. (rapid downsizing from war and changing tastes left a very small gun trade with the cream of the crop of remaining gun workers)

As to owning something amazing: I think the most beautiful guns in the world are what I call "Patent Guns". From 1880-1910 every fine gunmaker was rushing to the patent office to express their ideas as to what is the best design for a gun. Some survived, some died, but in that 1880-1910 (the Silver Era as it's known) I believe much more interesting, personalized and beautiful guns were made and the latter "Golden Era" certainly had refinement but it rings as soul-less duplications of one another. Arguing the superiority of a Golden Era gun from Lang versus Grant versus Boss versus Churchill versus Woodward grows tiresome as they at that point were all so good and all so similar that arguments are purely collector arguments and aesthetics of a specific specimen. On the other hand, if you look at a best 1890s Westley Richards and a best Charles Lancaster and a best Charles Hellis and a best Stephen Grant, they all are stunning, uniquely made and wonderful different from one another. Oh, and the silver era guns might fetch 1/3rd of what a golden era gun of same make might fetch.

From an aesthetic standpoint, the sidelock gave the maker more room to engrave the gun which made them more often best guns. Boxlocks are not nearly as refined but there have been best box lock makers out there like Charles Hellis and Harkom to name two. (Westley Richards did not often make best boxlocks even though he owned the patent) . Then there was the attempts by the continentals and particularly the Belgians and Prussians that decided to use box lock actions and side plates so you'd gain the metal engraving real estate to beautify the gun but internally the guns were still boxlocks. (a modern example is the Beretta 687EELL for example..not sure why anyone would buy a modern one but that's my opinion)

As to durability of the wood that is up to debate depending on the wood how it was inlet and what the guts of the gun contain. A single trigger gun often had more wood removed from the head so that made them more fragile. (but that was regardless of lock type) Perkes ejectors required more wood removal on both stock and forend than a southgate system so that could be a point of weakness but again is regardless as to whether box or side lock.

Here's the real reason that gun snobs that know their stuff reject modern boxlocks over modern sidelocks. (emphasis being modern) Most modern boxlocks are affixed with a through-bolt holding the stock onto the locks. That is a great trick for quick installation and removal of a stock but it serves many problems:

A.) You can't easily cast and bend a gun that has a through-bolt (perazzi, krieghoff, berettas, all brownings, merkels).

B.) They are always chubby and inelegant because you have a large void in the stock to accommodate the bolt

C.) They are overbuilt

D.) Because they are bolting them together, they are reckless and imprudent as to which wood they select. The "best gun" wood that is used today on these through bolted guns is not of proper grain contour. (they should be angled straight grain in the wrist and burled or figured in the body of the comb)

E.) Throughbolted and bespoke do not often go hand in hand. At best, the stocks are slightly carved for gun fitting but not bent to fit the custom needs of a shooter.

Sidelock guns are never through bolted and that alone means they are of a more svelte, better built construction than most boxlocks. There will always be exceptions to the rules (and exceptions are often bargains).

Addendum: Wow did I ramble. My apologies!
 
Looks like the differences have been explained.

HISTORY
Double rifle design goes back to the black powder days. Unreliable locks and ignition, dictated a double rifle over a single to ensure the chance of getting a shot off. Not by design the chance of a second shot, though that was a benefit. Sidelocks are much easier to repair/replace in the field as highlighted by Nyati. They (usually) extend forward of the breech area down each side of the rifle. A simple take off and replace exercise. Flat springs it seems, were not as resilient to ageing as they are now. A broken spring is often the reason an older rifle/gun is returned for correct refurbishment.

THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE FORGET IN THIS MODERN AGE
Neither design is more reliable than the other IF you open the breech to reload AND foreign debris (even of very small size) enters the rifle, preventing it closing. This is not good when facing a wounded animal intent on revenge.

Cost for the working man precludes the purchase of a matching pair, however the procedure post discharge of two shots was to hand your empty double to the gun bearer and retrieve your 2nd rifle ready to fire shots 3 and 4 (or shots 2 and 3). Or to down a 2nd/3rd herd animal, before quotas and when animals didn't have a trophy fee. A lot was made of practise with your gunbearer in old literature. This may carry over from organised driven shotgun shoots for game birds and/or the early use of muzzle loading BP guns when reload times were longer.
 
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rookhawk, great post. You pulled together a few things that I had heard and read and others that I had not. I am now slightly less ignorant on the subject of break action guns. Thank you very much.
 
To Code4's points above, the key point of a double rifle is that you are carrying TWO rifles. One for the money, two for the show, etc. Every piece of the gun was duplicated. Two: barrels, intercepting safety sears, main springs, strikers, hammers and triggers.

Worst case scenario as CODE4 describes: You pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang. You go with plan B and pull the second trigger.

So that begs the question in my mind: Why are people today buying single trigger double rifles and taking all that resiliency and "my trip shalt not be ruined" capability of a double rifle and reducing it down to a single point of failure? Single triggers do fail with great frequency and they double fire as well. I can understand the preference for non-dangerous game but can't understand how that preference came about with double rifles where there isn't a competent gunsmith available within a 1000 miles? I'd think Selous and Bell would roll in their graves but what do I know? Answer: not much.?
 
uhmm, yes, thank you guy's. Now i know the difference...still want one either box or sidelock...which ever one i can affort :whistle:
 

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