Discussion in 'Introductions & Greets' started by iona, Dec 5, 2012.
Exactly. My post, #22 above, refers.
I thought The Mail was a bit of a tabloid, but nonetheless the story is a good one. What can I tell you? Well if you go back and read the story, you'll see that this rhino was taken in by the Whittall family. Roger Whittall has been running a hunting operation in Zimbabwe for some 40 plus years. You'll note that black rhino are not available for hunting. I'm sure you are aware of the plight of rhino's and the blackmarket trade of Rhino horn. It's not regulated hunting that's the threat to rhino's, it's poaching to satisfy a market.
And this brings me to the point I'd like for you to understand. Please put aside any subjective filters through which you or others view wildlife. Instead stick with the very objective paradigm that Africa's wildlife has a monetary value. This monetary value is subject to change depending on the conditions in which the animal's live.
Roger Whittall runs a hunting business. For him to be successful at this business, there must in fact be a reasonably sized population of animals to meet the expectation of his clients that they will be successful on their hunt. With many if not the majority of those clients being American hunters, I'm sure you can imagine if we pay $2000 or more on air fare to get to Africa, spending all that time in traveling there, spending the dollars it takes to hunt there, if when we get there and only see the stray antelope here or there we're not going to be very happy. So it is in the best business interests of Roger and other safari operators to ensure the proper management of the renewable resource which represents their income.
But the animals aren't just valuable to the safari operators, they also represent value to the indigenous population. This is where it gets a bit tricky. As you know I'm sure from your travels to Tanzania, much of the indigenous population lives a life of subsistence. Their day to day struggle is very different from our struggles as their's greatly surrounds not starving. They have two choices, either get a job to make money to buy food or obtain it from raising crops and livestock. Hunting operations provides jobs as well meat to those populations. Thus where hunting exists the value is in keeping those animal populations healthy. Where hunting doesn't exist, farming and the raising of livestock must supplant the lack of paying jobs. In this case the value of the wildlife lies in it's destruction. Elephants, rhinos and whatever else find those crops to be yummy. If your life depends on those crops you don't think that to be a good situation. Lions, leopards and hyenas find cattle also to be yummy, again if your life depends on that livestock, you'd prefer those predators to not be around.
In your research for your dissertation, you simply can't ignore this fact. The problem with the antihunters is they simply want to ignore the fact that the indigenous Africans need to eat too. If the wildlife threatens their existence, the wildlife will be the losers. If the wildlife on the other hand helps these people in their struggle to survive, well then the wildlife benefits.
You can read a bit more about Roger Whittall and the Save Conservancy here: Welcome to Roger Whittall Safaris
meera go to www.ronthomsoshuntingbooks.co.za .and also try and get all his articles etc on conservation. his book "managing our wildlife heritage" is not expensive and it is very informative. for others who like hunting books his are very good . meera also maybe try to get "at the hands of man" by raymond bonner,(amazon has a used copy on its site forï½£4.30) its from the early nineties i think and some of its content is probably not relevant now, but it gives an interesting view on how some animal rights organisations operate/manipulate wildlife management in african countries to their own ends, and not for the benefit of the wildlife and local people.
Meera- a case study you could look at is what happens to wildlife when a country closes hunting. There are people here a lot more familiar with Kenya than I am, but Kenya closed hunting in 1977. The game outside of the touristy national parks therefore had/has no value. My understanding is that outside the national parks Kenya's wildlife has simply been devastated.
Botswana is in the process of closing hunting-The consensus in the hunting community is that game outside the parks there will have no value and will disappear over time.
If you are on a research type-track with long time horizons-maybe you could focus on the Botswana situation over time. Maybe document the game situation in the hunting concessions when hunting is closed and going back a few years and document its disappearance over time.
Any reply Meera?
Since your research is in it infancy. I do know that your research topic will be reviewed by the department head and probably 1 or 2 other professors. These professors will give you the green or red light on your research project and they will provide guidance to you while you are doing your research. You will probably have a review time line as to your progress with your project and which way it is going. This review process will gently guide you to their way of thinking. And i know you want your PH degree to move on with your career. So like you have indicated you have no idea which way it will go either positive or negative toward hunting in general.
Is your asking for volunteers putting the cart before the horse so to say.
We have many fine organisations that sportsmen belong to and maybe your initial contact should be with them and then moving on to the individual sportsman.
We have many and i will list a few: (Ones that i belong to)
SCI - Safari Club International
DSC - Dallas Safari Club
TU - Trout Unlimited
DU - Ducks Unlimited
RMEF - Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
NAHC - North American Hunter Club
NAFC - North American Fishing Club
These are but a few of the organizations that are conservation minded, that many sportsman belong to and provide financial assistance to help preserve wildlife and habitat.
While you have indicated that you have no preconceived thought on your project outcome. I do suspect that your department heads will-have and they will gently guide you to there line of thought. Students will some times change their thesis, after a initial review of there paper by the department heads.
As mentioned, your direction is in it infancy and is this about hunting, poaching, subsistence hunting, habitat encroachment, as they all play a part in the survival of the African game animals. Out of all the above the hunter is the only one willing to put his money up front to help manage the wildlife numbers in the various countries that support hunting. The hunter conservationist is the one card that adds value to the wildlife.
Look to Kenya and how the game animals are now being poached (Elephants, Lions, Leopards, Cape Buffalo and so on) in the parks, due to the encroachment of squatters to raise there herds of cattle and to till the soil for row crops. When you have witnessed the barren land side, do to over utilization by goats and cattle, you can see why the locals have moved there livestock to the only available grass around. Livestock has a value and game animals do not in these locations.
(example) To say Bwana shot a white rhino at a cost of 100K in South Africa. This lone White rhino that was harvested by Bwana was his or hers dream hunt of a life time. The taking of a White Rhino that is past it prime has now provided lets say 50 game wardens/scouts a paid job for 1 year. These 50 GW.GS are the task force used to catch poachers and to stop poaching of the white rhino.
Is this the kind of information you are looking for, or are you just looking for the Bwans who shot the white rhino and god was I lucky to get the little bugger, and not provide the additional information.
Without hunting uncontrolled population growth in restricted space creates conflict. One of the reasons I support hunting as a conservation tool.
Masvingo Marauding wild animals have destroyed nearly 1000 hectares of sugar cane at Mkwasine Estates and surrounding areas in Chiredzi, severely crippling operations of hundreds of resettled farmers in the area.
Wild animals such as elephants, buffaloes, baboons and monkeys from Save Valley Conservancy, Gonarezhou National Park and other private wild life sanctuaries have been roaming freely in the sugar cane estates in Mkwasine destroying vast swathes of cane crop in the process.
Over 500 resettled farmers are affected.
Zimbabwe Sugarcane Development Association chairman Mr Edmore Veterai yesterday said hundreds of farmers at Mkwasine Estates and surrounding areas were facing a bleak farming season as result of the damage caused by wild animals.
Mr Veterai said there was need for contingency measures to be taken to salvage the farmers' operations, which are on the verge of collapse.
"On average each of the hundreds of affected farmers has since the beginning of this year lost about 45 percent of their cane crop to wild animals which are roaming freely in the Lowveld.
"The wild animals are elephants, buffaloes, baboons and monkeys which our investigations have proved they are coming from Save Valley Conservancy, Gonarezhou National Park and private game parks in the Lowveld," said Mr Veterai.
He said they had already engaged the National Parks and Wildlife Management Authority to intervene and allow farmers to shoot the marauding wild animals.
"The worst affected farmers are in Mkwasine, Mapanza, and Porepore sugar estates and most of the cane farmers might record heavy loses and fail to repay bank loans if the problem of rampaging wild animals is not urgently attended to," Mr Veterai said
The Zimbabwe Sugarcane Development Association said farmers were raising funds to set up a perimeter fence that would stop wild animals from prowling on their sugar cane.
Communities around the wildlife-rich Save Valley Conservancy and the Gonarezhou National Park have over the past few years borne the brunt of wild animals that are roaming freely and terrorising them after the collapse of a perimeter fence that used to provide a barrier between the communities and wildlife.
BY GEORGE MAPONGA, 1 DECEMBER 2012 The Herald.
87% of Income realized is from International Hunters who hunted 39% of the animals taken in 2011
The much larger funding source for conservation!
GOVERNMENT last year realised more than K16 billion from hunting licences, Parliament heard yesterday.
Tourism and Arts Minister Sylvia Masebo said in the 2011 hunting season, 3, 807 animals were hunted under resident hunting while 2, 468 under non-resident were hunted.
This gave a financial value of K2.1 billion from resident hunting against K14.4 billion from non-resident hunting.
She said in a ministerial statement that more animals under the resident hunting category were hunted at low prices to the extent of threatening animal populations as compared to relatively fewer animals under non-resident hunting.
"This unbalanced way of hunting encouraged corruption in the entire business of resident hunting, a vice that must be arrested at all costs," Ms Masebo said.
BY CHILA NAMAIKO, 6 DECEMBER 2012 Times of Zambia
Botswana has one plus still apart from the st back, there is a lot of land in private ownership and hunting will continue on private ranches, this IMO will spark game ranch development in Bots and develop the private game industry in this country... Who knows in 10 - 14 it could contribute close to or a billion $ to the GDP, but who knows... I am trying to find what little positives I can...
My best always.
As promised; here's a link to my student profile on the University of Sheffield's website.
Meera Inglis - PhD students - Research - Politics - The University of Sheffield
p.s. My apologies, I've only just realised that there have been several new posts since my last reply...for some reason I didn't receive the usual email notifying me of new posts.
I will reply to all your messages tomorrow.
meera with those qualifications you definitely like studying more than i ever did
Could I possibly suggest .......hunting... (Constructive pastime...)
Spike could you second that?
My best always
One thing that I found disturbing is Dr. Cochrane's focus on animal rights. As others have said here-your advisors may structure your research and findings into a specific direction. If you really plan to give hunters a fair shake-you may have to fight him for that.
I am writing extensively about my upcoming Safari to Africa and my feelings toward hunting. One of my upcoming thoughts will have a lot to do with my feelings on animals. I will be glad to share that with you.
I did notice something very concerning on your website.
"My hope is that by documenting the attitudes of hunters and comparing them in as objective a manner as possible to those who strongly oppose hunting,"
I realize that in your world-you are surrounded by animal rights people and those who oppose hunting. But, from your statement-you will only have a problem being "Objective" with the attitudes of hunters, not with those who oppose hunting.
While the structure and content of that statement makes perfect sense in your academic environment. It is concerning for any hunters that may be involved with your research.
Jaco do you mean learning more about your surroundings, the bush, animals, insects, birds, even yourself sometimes when you are hunting? . that is constructive and also i think is part of what meera has said she wants to learn about how hunters feel when hunting, not just the end product i.e. the trophy animal or meat hunted animal.
I have read every post in this thread, and have come to believe you are genuinely sincere in your quest Meera. So you can include me in your survey, if you want. Just PM me.
I am really not sure SCI or any of the other organizations will suit the purpose here, since you want the feelings and thoughts of hunters themselves about conservation and the animals they hunt. It would be like asking politicians, when you want the opinion of the common man on the street.
But of course, knowledge about conservation are abudant within these organisations. When it comes to ethics you may want to look up on Rowland Ward Guild.
:: Rowland Ward ::
Having taken on a foreign exchange student this year, I feel this is a similar situation. Our student had a difficult time making the decision to come to our home. I was up front with her in what I do as far as hunting and my love for the outdoors. I did not want any uncomfortable situation. She is an animal lover, and a vegitarian. She was concerned that I would have animals all over my house and just killed for the heck of it. But for some reason she decided to take the leap.
We have had multiple conversations about conservation. I feel most people have formed opinions (political, financial, global warming you pic the topic) based on incorrect information. I challenging her all the time to "know your opponent" and listen objectively to both sides before forming an oppinion. Don't take what a person says as true. Find the source of the information. Sometimes this means going to 2,3,4 or more sources. I feel once you get to the facts. You can then form your opinion.
I hope this is Meera's take on this topic. Be open in your thoughts an don't let others try to influence your opinion. Maybe we can change and solve all the worlds problems starting right here?????
Sorry it's been a couple of days since my last post, it's been a very busy week!
Thank you for all your posts and messages, there has been so many of them! I hope I can respond to them adequately now: In response to
Brickburn Yes I have taken part in birdwatching since I was very young; I've been to bird-hides and also simply sat and watched them through the kitchen window - I have a bird feeder and bath set up so I can watch without disturbing them.
Firefishhunt My apologies if the way I've phrased things in my profile offends you - when I refer to hunting as conservation as a 'theory' I only do so because it is not something which is unanimously accepted - just as evolution is a 'theory' or relativity is a 'theory'. Just because I use the term theory does not mean I am unwilling to accept any truth in it. As to what you could gain from talking to me - surely having your opinions heard by someone who expresses interest is valuable? The only way I am going to be able to do the hunting sector real justice in my thesis is by collating evidence - I can't do that if people won't talk to me. If you don't like the final outcome you can a) take comfort in the fact that only a handfull of people will ever read it! and b) you are free to argue against it and contradict what I say. I honestly think that debate is the healthiest form of resolution. I will, as you suggest, be looking at various organisations and the economic value of hunting but in my opinion this alone is insufficient, it is the people who hunt who make hunting credible which is why I want to talk to you.
Rick B - I thought your post was wonderful! Your description of the hunting experience is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for - you really show concern for the welfare of animals and I think this is something many people miss when they think about hunters.
Breaker Morant Thanks for the url links and book recommendations; I will certainly look into them. I have also been looking at the example of Kenya that you mentioned and the decline in wildlife after the hunting ban is very interesting. I'm currently looking for more articles on this.
Phoenix Phil Whittal Safaris looks like it could make an interesting case study - again it shows the dedication of hunters to animal welfare. Indigenous relations to welfare is also an important issue and I like what you've said about employment in hunting as an alternative to agriculture.
Spike Thanks for the book recommendations!
James Grange My research has been approved - the only possible hindrance is that my survey will have to go through the University ethics commitee before I can send it out. The reason I am 'putting the cart before the horse' and looking for volunteers now is that it would be a huge waste of my time to plan, design and get a survey approved if no one was willing to complete it.
Jaco I would very much like to observe a hunting trip! If I do get funding next year that is exactly what I will do.
To everyone: A few of you have raised concerns about the fact that I live in a country where hunting is a minority pursuit and I have grown up in an environment where the anti-hunting movement is quite vocal. There has also been a little concern about the fact that one of my supervisors has written on animal rights. In regards to Dr Cochrane I should point out that he is my second supervisor - which means we do not meet that often and his role is rather to support my first supervisor than give me direction. Additionally, even if he, or anyone else, tries to influence my work, they are within their rights to do so but I am equally in my rights to reject or argue against those opinions. The university is very encouraging in free debate and independent research. Furthermore, I am used to people trying to influence my thoughts and I am used to keeping an open mind - I think this important not just in research but in everyday life. I respect that other people have differing opinions to my own and the whole point of this thesis is to explore those opinions and learn from them.
Finally Rick B - Yes, let's change the world starting today!
I thought you might be a closet hunter.
You have been hunting for a long time, you just chose to skip the consumptive harvest portion of the process.
I sincerely hope you can get to Africa and follow along on several kill hunts with hunters from a variety of nations to experience some of the variety of cultural differences.
It would also be interesting for you to accompany an anti poaching team on a patrol and interview some "poachers", "bush meat hunters".
In the UK there is no such thing as subsistence hunting. For a significant number of people in Canada subsistence hunting is a way of life. Many of these people have been negatively impacted by anti-hunting sentiments being promulgated into policy and legislation. Although these people do not hunt in Africa there are some others who do. There are a few "San" in Botswana and Namibia and Hadza in Tanzania that function on a subsistence basis. These hunters all understand first hand about hunting and conservation. Their lives depended on it.
I'll deliver a few questionaires to some Botswana San next year if you would like their input.
I think if were suddenly in your shoes and starting your research project today, I would read a lot of Shane Mahoney's columns that appear in Sports Afield magazine. I think he really gets to ethics of the hunt. I think you could hang a lot of stuff of his framework.
I think Mr. Mahoney could be a wonderful resource for you in many ways.
From his bio "Born and raised in Newfoundland, Shane Mahoney is a biologist, writer, hunter, angler, internationally known lecturer on environmental and resource conservation issues, and an expert on the North American Conservation Model."
I don't know how to contact him other than through Sports Afield-maybe he has facebook or a website?
Separate names with a comma.