Double rifle cartridge question?

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by GaryO, May 12, 2013.

  1. GaryO

    GaryO AH Senior Member

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    Why are modern rimmed cartridges like the 458WM or 416Rem described often as being "problematic" in double rifle stopping guns? Ejection or Extraction problems? Thanks...
     
  2. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

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    The rounds you mentioned are not rimmed, they are both belted.

    To achieve proper velocity, rounds like the 458WM and 416Rem operate at higher pressures than a Nitro Express cartridge like a 450 Nitro Express.

    Double rifle actions are relatively weak when compared to a bolt gun.

    The Nitro Express cartridges are also rimmed which makes extraction more simple. Ejectors for a rimless cartridge like the 458WM are more complicated and some claim less reliable.

    The short answer is the less pressure and more reliable extraction of the standard rimmed NE is more reliable and better suited for double rifles than rimless cartridges.

    That being said there are many 458WM doubles that have worked fine for years.
     
  3. GaryO

    GaryO AH Senior Member

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    I stand corrected. I meant to type "modern rimless" cartridges...thanks, Mike.
     
  4. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    Hi, if I get a custom made double in .500 Jeffery, will the pressure be to high?
     
  5. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    stan i think the fact that the .500 jeffery has a rebated rim would be a major headache in trying to get the ejectors/extractors to work.
     
  6. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    Ele-trail, Actually the double rifle that were made by the better makers of double rifles chambered for cartridges like the 458 Win Mag are made to handle the pressures, and that is not a big deal.

    However when you consider the strength built into the rifle that was factory chambered for 458Win Mag that is re-chambered for 450NE will last three lifetimes if cared for properly.

    As Mike says the problem is the extractor/ejector system needed to handle the rimless/ belted rimless high pressures is by comparison very fragile, and far more likely to cause a problem than the ejector/extractor shoe made for a rimmed NE low pressure rimmed cartridge.

    The fact is all rimless/belted rimless cartridges were designed to be used in a bolt action rifle, and IMO, are not suited to a double rifle that will be used for dangerous game. Also as Mike said there are many of these high pressure doubles around that have never given a problem, but one time is all that it takes to get you killed. Those rifles that have never given a problem WILL sooner or later.

    Of all the cartridges you could pick the 500J is about the last thing anyone could make work in a double rifle, with it's rebated rim it is a night mare in a bolt rifle. A well made double rifle chambered for the 500NE makes far more sense, and will do anything the 500J will, with less pressure, and without ejection problems.;)
     
  7. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    Thanks Spike.t and Dugaboy1,

    Okay, what is the max muzzle speed can I get from .500 NE? Possible to get 2,400 Fts from 500-535 grains bullet?
     
  8. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

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    The "standard" 500NE round fires a 570 grain bullet at around 2150 FPS. This is what most rifles are regulated for.

    I know one guy that is shooting a 475 grain bullet out of his 500 Nitro double at 2425 FPS.

    If you are set on shooting lighter bullets you could have the rifle regulated for the loads, however 2400 FPS with a 535 grain bullet is pushing the limit.

    Personally I prefer to keep my handloading for doubles along a more traditional line.

    If the 500 Nitro is not powerful enough you could always step up to a 577 Nitro Express.
     
  9. AkMike

    AkMike AH Fanatic

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    If the 500 NE 3" won't kill it, the others won't either.
     
  10. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    I am currently loading my own .500 N.E up to 2300fps with a 475gn C.E.B projectile and it is still mild in pressure (for my gun).

    This is serious medicine and absolutely breaks down buffalo, big time !

    You do not need to doubt the effects on buffalo of the above combination.
     
  11. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    Thanks guys.

    I plan to use a cutting edge bullet: DGBR X08NE BBW 13 .510 Cal 510 gr - 20 ct SAFARI SOLID. Do you think I will get 2,350 fts +-?

    I have used this same bullet BBW 13 Solid in .500 MDM on several elephants and like the performance very much.
     
  12. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

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    Not even the 600 Nitro? :biggrin:
     
  13. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    I think .50 calibre makes enough big holes ready.:eek:

    Plus I prefer to use 500-535 grains bullet as felt recoil is fine for me for a quick follow up shot.
     
  14. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    hi stan what have you got on your fishing line in your avatar photo? it looks like it could be big :fishing::)
     
  15. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    Hi Spike.t. I think it was either a 190 lb black marlin or a 170 lb sailfish. That was in Andaman Islands, India this past January.
     
  16. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    sounds good. i am still trying to figure out when you actually spend time at home.......;):beer:
     
  17. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    Spike.t. It has been a rough year for me indeed. This year I think I only spend less than 40% time at home. I just came back from a second fishing trup in Andaman Islands last week. Off again to Namibia next Tuesday.

    My wife has not complained yet;)
     
  18. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Stan, like you I too am a big fan of the .50's (and +) fan,
    although unlike you I don't hunt Elephant.

    All of my hunting is buffalo.

    I have seen the 510gn C.E.B solid used on buffalo and can relate that I feel confident in assuring you will reach the vitals on any buffalo from any angle with a well directed shot.
    We have yet to recover any C.E.B solid when used on buffalo.

    Last year I used my .500 MDM, loaded with the 450gn non-cons to about 2350fps to shoot 13 buffalo and four wild Oxen.
    The results were very impressive.

    Loaded with these types of bullets the .50's drop buffalo like a sack of hammers.


    Great to see another MDM fan out there !


    My apologies to the original poster for wandering off topic.


    Paul.
     
  19. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    i will have to get some tips on how you manage that. and have another great time in namibia, :beer:
     
  20. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

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    Hi Paul. This is a video of the very first time I shot .50 calibre. It was a PH .505 Gibb. Sure kicked the hell out of me then. I love buffalo hunting too, second to elephant. Elephant hunting is more enjoyable for me. You should try elephant hunting sometime.

    Thanks Spike.t

    [video=youtube_share;h4N9CYUFJPM]http://youtu.be/h4N9CYUFJPM[/video]
     

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