Will Rhino hunting become legal elsewhere?

tigris115

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As of October 5th 2014, the only places that it's legal to kill a rhinoceros are South Africa and Namibia (not 100% sure on darting in other places). Seeing as how rhino populations in these two countries are doing alright and even experiencing some growth (with the exception of that mass poaching outbreak in the Kruger), do you think that other countries will catch on and let hunting clients take rhinoceros.
 
It's doubtfull lots of hype about Rhino hunting and there aren't many polititions anywhere willing to go against the flow
 
NO, the numbers are WAY DOWN, and frankly will never be high again because of politics and a ever growing population. It's damn unfortunate, but the same thing happen to buffalo in the USA. Are wild population is small fraction of the old population.
 
I do think the North American Bison is quiet safe from extinction and in fact from any real endangerment as a species.

If the Bison is to be compared to an African species, it might be better compared to the Blue Wildebeest or other species of greater abundance or that naturally runs in large herds. I don't think the Rhino ever existed in the numbers and herd sizes that the bison did. Wouldn't the rhino be comparable to Moose or other more solitary animals?

If there is a bright spot, the Bison was certainly brought back from the brink. Fortunately the Bison did not possess a horn perceived to have all kinds of magical qualities and thus perceived value.

If you want to make a comparison regarding the habitat loss to advanced human use... Yes, there is a tide of human encroachment coming in Africa. It certainly appears that the only successful model of maintaining a species in Africa, is to give it true value and a legal market...... I am in no way suggesting I have any solution for the Rhino problem, just making observations and pointing out comparisons to the American Bison.

I would further observe that although history may say commercial hunting brought the bison to the brink,,,, But I think rational observation would indicate there was a general public and government will to remove the bison to make room for development.... The same pressure is coming to much of Africa. But money talks, the animals must have value to stand a chance. And like much of the American bison population, private enterprise offers the most promise.
 
I don't feel that way about the bison. They are effectively quarantined to certain areas, inbreed and poorly managed. Where the wolf has been welcomed:cautious:(n):eek:, the Woods or American Bison has been very poorly managed...and that is being kind.

I think the rhino will suffer the same fate...inbred, quarantined...and mismanaged. Remember they use to be on most licenses 50 years ago...a huge kudu was on par with a rhino:whistle::sneaky:;)(y):cool:.

Hunting a fenced bison is not the same as a free range hunt in Utah or Arizona:rolleyes:. Just like darting a rhino is not the same as hunting a black rhino of days gone by.

And farmers and ranchers have effectively doomed the bison because of disease and sickness concerns to their cattle.
 
enysse;
Can't argue too much with that. Don't know about the inbreeding, but certainly do agree that a fenced bison hunt in MN is a totally BS affair. But a hunt on a large more open prairie ranch might not be much different than a wild bison hunt. The stories of hunting bison in the old times do not sound like it was very challenging.

As for farmers and ranchers "dooming" bison herds, I doubt that... I actually saw a large herd being rounded up to be vaccinated to prevent that. Of course there needs to be concern about a fellow bovine species carrying disease and spreading it to domestic populations.... Have you checked the price of beef lately? People need to eat and I don't think there is any rational plan to feed 7 plus billion people from wildlife.

Now as for rhino.... What do you propose as a solution that has hope of being successful? I doubt we are going to be able to make a difference.... But it is an interesting topic.
 
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My dad and brother are big beef farmers and we will see if price and surplus play out in the future. Yes, farmers are very smart and my brother thinks they can drive the price anywhere, I told him, no...not really people will switch to pork, chicken, seafood etc.

I look at the people in my neighborhood, I live in the poor part of Green Bay, my choice BTW. If there was no food stamp program, people would not be living so high on the hog. I have people asking me all the time to buy them cigarettes in exchange for them buying me groceries. One day the government may change and actually make people earn what they eat other than have the government buy they a first class meal every night
 
Fully agree with your second paragraph!

As for the first, I would be surprised if your brother really believes he can drive the price. He likely produces commodities (unless he is vertically integrated and processes and direct markets his product). That means that eventually the price moves to the average cost of production and the people who profit at that point are the ones who are able to produce at a cost below average, and normally at a greater scale and efficiency. I strongly suspect your brother either knows this and is confident he can compete, or has a different business model that somehow insulates him from these realities. And he may not be explaining that to you, or you may not be hearing his explanation.

The beef industry is currently enjoying a super cycle hitting at the same time as the regular 11 year cycle.... So along with the past few years of record high feed prices, thus huge increases in cost of production which along with a couple severe weather issues, caused a large sell off of brood cows and cattle in general..... This has all created an inventory of cattle (at least beef cows) which is at something like a 55 year low. And now in the past few months, corn prices have dropped severely and cattle guys are very profitable again... Thus the cycle will turn as profit causes an increase in supply. So you are completely correct in saying "no" his profitability is not guaranteed..... And yes there is some switching to chicken, just go out to eat and look at a menu. However pork has it's own challenges! Go price bacon. Chickens have a much shorter life and generation cycle so they can respond much quicker... Turkeys as well... In fact there are new turkey barns being built as fast as they can. Don't think sea food is endless either......

This all further proves the point that capitalism works, and the RSA saying regarding wildlife is correct..... "if it pays, it stays!"

There is a reality that more and more people around the World are entering the middle class and the first thing they do is to put more protein in to their diet (meat, cheese, soy, fish). Then they buy clothes (cotton), go out and have a beer, wine, or drink of some kind (barley, hops, grapes, grains in general), they also get pets... Especially in China where there are basically no siblings AND no cousins... The kids need a pet to play with! Well the pets eat... Add in ethanol which in the USA now takes more corn than livestock does..... What this all has in common is a much greater need for farmers to produce more. Add in a projected population growth to something like 9.2 billion within the next 50 years (at which point it is expected to level off and even back down a bit)...... Think this will affect wildlife areas in Africa???? Elsewhere?

There is good news in all this, there are many areas where wildlife may be the best use of resources to produce more protein.... Perhaps eland will supply part of the meat... And maybe it will continue to be blesbuck, springbuck and gemsbok. Some of these species are better suited to turn available feedstuffs to protein than cattle or other domestic livestock. I do think it is obvious hunting can take place on the same properties that commercial culling operators go in to harvest that protein. And modern agriculture can produce a lot more from less with technological advances. If permitted. The reports I see say we can maintain most wild places and still meet these increased demands. However I'm sure more areas of Africa will be pressured towards human needs.
 
I agree my brother is in denial. The great thing my brother can do is sell a crop or feed it he has a choice.

And you 100% correct in the near future, like within 100 years just feeding every one will be a huge problem. And just having surviving populations of wildlife will likely be considered a success.
 
From the news reports, you'd think the rhino are being wiped out, but according to savetherhino.org, both black and white have increased dramatically in numbers since 1990.

Poaching is slowing down the increase, however. And poaching has gotten way, way, worse in recent years. Over 1000 were poached last year. Five years ago about 500 a year were poached. Ten years ago about 50. This poaching trend MUST be stopped.

http://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/rhino_population_figures
 
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What do you think kickstarted the recent poaching crisis?
 
Pretty easy answer, insane escalation in price of rhino horn and a change in economic conditions (not to sound racist but certain populations have new wealth and power).
 
only way to stop poaching is to get rid of the demand. as long as people want rhino horn then someone will be willing to poach to supply it. while I personally believe poaching rhino and elephant should carry the death penalty due to the extremes its being carries out at.

first, China needs to work on educating its people about how stupid "traditional medicine" is. people need to understand that rhino horn will not give them a bigger "thing" or help them with erectile dysfunction.

another thought is that farms could be set up to breed the rhino in bulk and sell the horns to stupid people. im sure there is a way to remove the horn without killing the rhino which means you could use the rhino without a horn for breeding more rhino. operating a rhino farm would bring in some serious $$ at the stupid prices idiots are willing to pay for those horns. if it pays it stays...

-matt
 
Yeah, that's the best idea I've heard of matt85. In fact, farms could be created in China! I'm sure there are parts of China that African rhinos could thrive in.
 
you could even produce fake rhino horn from something similar and those idiots wouldn't notice because real rhino horn doesn't do any thing to begin with. I might be in the wrong line of work...

-matt
 
Yep, make the stuff worth nothing and them it will not be worth poaching. But then again, you can draw parallels between drugs and poaching, yet how much money is spent worldwide on drug law in forcement alone? Is the drug problem getting better or worse? Also agree that education is the key, however how do you convince someone that there 3000 year old belief is a pile doo doo? Even though SA has dome excellent work in saving both Black & White from extinction at the rate they are getting poached not sure what the future is (I don't think anyone does). I will never be able to hunt one, however I would like the opportunity to at least get the chance to see one in the wild (be it a national park).
 
only way to stop poaching is to get rid of the demand. as long as people want rhino horn then someone will be willing to poach to supply it. while I personally believe poaching rhino and elephant should carry the death penalty due to the extremes its being carries out at.

first, China needs to work on educating its people about how stupid "traditional medicine" is. people need to understand that rhino horn will not give them a bigger "thing" or help them with erectile dysfunction.

another thought is that farms could be set up to breed the rhino in bulk and sell the horns to stupid people. im sure there is a way to remove the horn without killing the rhino which means you could use the rhino without a horn for breeding more rhino. operating a rhino farm would bring in some serious $$ at the stupid prices idiots are willing to pay for those horns. if it pays it stays...

-matt
Hello Matt, You are 100% correct with your statement regarding supply and demand- Farm them and set up legal trade of the horns. The only problem with that is that the corrupt few who benefit through illegal trade would be cut out of the deal. The Real question is - Who makes the decisions and who is benefiting?
 
The only problem with that is that the corrupt few who benefit through illegal trade would be cut out of the deal.

so cut them in, put a hefty tax on exporting rhino horn and pay the government officials with said tax. if the crooks believe they will make more money from the horns being legally farmed then they will support it. legally farmed rhino horn would be MUCH cheaper then rhino horn poached at the risk of peoples lives (kill any one caught poaching). so farm the animals then tax the export and its a win-win, the animals live and people still make tons of money off stupid people.

-matt
 
so cut them in, put a hefty tax on exporting rhino horn and pay the government officials with said tax. if the crooks believe they will make more money from the horns being legally farmed then they will support it. legally farmed rhino horn would be MUCH cheaper then rhino horn poached at the risk of peoples lives (kill any one caught poaching). so farm the animals then tax the export and its a win-win, the animals live and people still make tons of money off stupid people.

-matt
Correct, exporting them legally would bring in Tax for the "countries" involved but greed will still play a major role as a certain amount of trace-ability would be connected to the monies brought in.

Fortunately we are still able to appreciate these animals in their natural habitat and I hope that the next generation and others living oversees have the same privilege to see them in the wild too.

Regards
 
something an old friend told me long ago:
bribe those who will take bribes, hurt those who will respond to pain, kill those who don't know reason.

work within the system, if crooks run the system then respond in kind. do what it takes to get the farms started and the money flowing from idiots who believe in magic. once that money starts flowing the people in charge wont want it to stop and the farms will stay. someone just needs to be very "persuasive" with the people who are against rhino faming.

note: im not implying someone kill the politicians against the idea. just suggesting someone approach them in a manner they are more accustomed to.

-matt
 

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