This has already been addressed, but... .458 Win Mag as a Dangerous 5 rifle?

[larry4831]

With accurate arms 2460 powder they give a velocity of 2190 with a 500 grain bullet out of a 24 inch barrel. That ain't too shabby.

 

[larry4831]

That's barking on the heels of the 458 lott

 

[Gert Odendaal]

That's barking on the heels of the 458 lott

And with less hard felt recoil....more accuracy and not embedding a flinch...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

With accurate arms 2460 powder they give a velocity of 2190 with a 500 grain bullet out of a 24 inch barrel. That ain't too shabby.

With premium bullets...excellent penetration as well

 

[Julius Fortuna]

I have had a thread similar to this before, but would like to present it again for various reasons. Thoughts on the .458 Win Mag as an Elephant/Cape Buff/Dangerous 5 rifle? Wouldn't mind getting the caliber change kit for a Stevens 200, but dont want to waste my time if im gonna be bouncing bullets of an elephant. Thanks for the help.

BBS777

Despite starting its life with a legitimate bad reputation on dangerous game with today’s phenomenal selection of factory solids (swifts Barnes woodleigh) and monolithic “softs” and super bonded ones driven at the magic 2150-2200 fps and 5000 ft lbs… bottom line is if you do your part the caliber will perform magnificently. The days of the congealing compressed squib loads with bouncing bullets on ele is as dead as Julius Caesar Finally, The 458 Win is one of the most prevalent PH stopping rifles, in a recent survey it (and the 458LOTT) where far and away the number one PH choice to defend the lives of clients and team, and there’s more to that rational then just pure stopping power.

 

[Major Bonkers]

What the world is waiting for is someone to produce a safari rifle in half-inch Browning.

 

[Forrest Halley]

What the world is waiting for is someone to produce a safari rifle in half-inch Browning.

Already been out done. Somebody made one in .700 RNE. Bolt action that held three rounds.

700 Nitro Express Rimless

So I was haunting my LGS and ran across this monster, it was one of two built by Dennis Olsen up here in Plains, MT. It is very well done! Comes with Brass, Forming and Reloading Dies and some ammo. It is built on a McMillan 50 BMG action, at 19.5 pounds with three Mercury tubes in the stock...

www.africahunting.com

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The answer to this question needs very careful historical and ballistic assessment.

When Winchester introduced their .458 Winchester Magnum caliber in 1956, velocities were advertised as 2130 fps (although the actual chronographed velocity was 2087 fps when fired from the 25” barrel of a Winchester Model 70 as per an H.P White laboratory report). Factory loaded ammunition employed a 510Gr soft point & a 500Gr round nosed THICK steel jacketed FMJ solid. When freshly manufactured ammunition was being used, all was good. But the ammunition was plagued with a short shelf life, due to the compressed charges of Winchester ball powder propellant inside the short 2.5” length cases. This would cause the powder propellant to clump and lead to partial ignition (which thusly led to predictably but abnormally unacceptable velocities). In the heat of humid African hunting terrain (such as the Zambezi valley or Rift valley or Kalahari desert), the short shelf life would become EVEN SHORTER. Quality control was also an issue. Winchester was manufacturing certain batches of .458 bullets which were undersized. And certain boxes of factory loaded Winchester cartridges had rounds which were loaded with both ball powder propellant and extruded powder propellant IN THE SAME BOX.

In 1961, Remington introduced their line of .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition. Velocities were advertised as 2130 fps (although the actual chronographed velocity was also 2087 fps when fired from the 25” barrel of a Winchester Model 70 as per an H.P White laboratory report). Factory loaded ammunition employed a 510Gr soft point & a 500Gr round nosed THIN steel jacketed FMJ solid. It was plagued by the same shelf life problems which the Winchester ammunition was suffering from. With 2 added disadvantages:
1) On account of the thin steel jackets, the Remington solids were noticeably more prone to distortion/bending/riveting/breaking apart than the Winchester solids.
2) Remington cases had even less powder capacity in them compared to the Winchester cases. And thus, the ball powder propellant charges would be requiring slightly MORE compression.

But to Remington’s credit, their .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition did not suffer from the quality control problems that were prevalent in the Winchester ammunition.

Sectioned .458 Winchester Magnum round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid bullets manufactured by both Winchester & Remington (pre 1969). Observe the thickness of the Winchester steel jacket compared to the Remington steel jacket.
Photograph Source: “NDLOVU: The Art Of Hunting The African Elephant” by Richard Harland.

Comparison of powder capacity of different brands of .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge cases. Observe how Remington cases hold the least amount of water.
Photograph Source: Finn Aagaard Selected Works

Here you can see vintage pre 1969 Winchester factory loaded ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum, owned by a friend.

Here are some of the cartridges from these boxes opened up. Observe the grotesque degree of clumping. My friend had to use a screwdriver in order to dislodge the clumped & compressed powder.

In 1969, Winchester (and subsequently Remington) did 2 things which had disastrous effects for the already problematic .458 Winchester Magnum:
1) They reduced the powder charge in an attempt to prevent the powder propellant from clumping up. Velocities were now advertised as 2040 fps, even though the chronographed velocities were now in the range of 1950 fps. But the shelf life problems were now solved.
2) In an attempt to reduce manufacturing costs, they replaced their proprietary steel jacketed .458 bullets with cupronickel jacketed .458 bullets that were being manufactured by Hornady.

The result was that all available factory loaded ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum was now underpowered and weakly constructed (becoming notorious for frequently failing to penetrate and/or breaking apart when being used against large dangerous game).

In 1982, Winchester and Remington both started using Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ & soft point bullets in their .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition (Joyce Hornady sensibly decided to switch back to steel jackets during this time, for his solid bullets). Bullet quality improved, but the achievable velocities were still not high enough for reliably taking large bull elephants with frontal brain shots. Bullet quality deteriorated once again in 1995, when Hornady again reverted back to the “More economically viable” choice of cupronickel jackets for their solid bullets.

This continued up until Winchester and Remington both stopped manufacturing .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition in 1997. From 2006-2010, Winchester briefly manufactured ammunition for this caliber again, using 500Gr Nosler Partitions and 500Gr Nosler flat nosed monolithic solids (which were manufactured by Norma). Advertised velocities were 2100fps (and to their credit, chronographed velocities were a good 2085-2093 fps), but shelf life was quite low and Winchester eventually stopped loading for this caliber once again in 2010.

In 1993, Federal started loading ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum. Choices of bullets were either a 500Gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point or a 500Gr flat nosed brass jacketed Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer FMJ solid. Advertised velocities were 2150 fps. But shelf life problems emerged once again, this forcing Federal to reduce their powder charge. Current advertised velocity from Federal is 2090 fps for their Trophy Bonded Bear Claw loading and 1950 fps for their Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer loading. Occasional batches of poorly constructed Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer bullets from Speer (once Jack Carter ceased to be affiliated with Federal) have also been a problem for the Federal .458 Winchester Magnum ammuntion.

In 2000, Hornady designed a factory loading for the .458 Winchester Magnum which they termed as the “Heavy Magnum“ line. Bullet offerings comprised of a 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid & a 500Gr Interlock soft point.
Advertised velocity was 2150 fps, but shelf life was so short that Hornady themselves instructed purchasers of this ammunition to use the cartridges up within 6 months of fresh manufacture. The Hornady Heavy Magnum’s production life was quite short lived.

The modern Hornady Dangerous Game Series line of ammunition (introduced in 2006) appears to have finally solved the shelf life issues with the .458 Winchester Magnum. 500Gr flat nosed steel jacketed Dangerous Game Solids (DGS) and 500Gr Dangerous Game eXpanding (DGX) soft points are now advertised as being capable of achieving 2140 fps. Indeed, chronographed velocities are around 2134 fps even from boxes of ammunition that are more than 5 years old. But only time will tell if the shelf life problems have really been solved.

There are two solutions for making the .458 Winchester Magnum a very reliable dangerous game performer:
1) Drop bullet weight down to 450-475Gr in order to achieve powder capacity. Sectional density gets compromised a bit, but not unacceptably so. And velocity is improved without compromising shelf life.
2) Use 500Gr bullets but only in fresh hand loads with extruded powder propellant. Load your ammunition up just a few days prior to the hunt and store in a cool gun safe with little packets of silica gel, in order to keep out the moisture.

Indeed, the last factory loaded .458 Winchester Magnum offering from Remington employed a 450Gr Swift A Frame bullet. And today, 450Gr Barnes TSX hollow points & 450Gr Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Solids would be absolutely amazing for the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Retired Tanzanian game ranger and white hunter, Terry Irwin exclusively used his .458 Winchester Magnum Mannlicher Schoenauer (one of only 77 ever to be built) to take upwards of 1500 African elephants from 1964 to 1969 (when he shot his final elephant). His ammunition of choice consisted of fresh hand loads employing IMR3031 powder propellant and 500Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids (fortunately for him, Hornady was using steel jackets in their solid bullets until 1969). And 500Gr Hornady soft points for lions. The 26” barrel and short throat of his Mannlicher Schoenauer also greatly contributed to the good velocity which his hand loads were achieving (2097 fps). The notion of only using fresh hand loads in the .458 Winchester Magnum was also endorsed by Colonel Arthur Alphin (of A square) and the late Harry Selby.

For the elephant culling programs in Zimbabwe during the 1980s, Colonel Alphin was supplying the National Parks with large consignments of specially loaded .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition. 500Gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids were loaded into Remington cases with IMR3031 powder propellant in order to achieve a chronographed velocity of 2128 fps. Shelf life was low (just as the Colonel had anticipated), but the ammunition was excellent when used fresh. The same applied for A Square’s commercially offered ammunition (which employed 465gr monolithic solid bullets). A consignment of this ammunition supplied to the National Parks in 1991, had the powder propellant in all of the cartridges get seriously clumped by 2000.


Richard Harland (very deservedly so) gained good reputation for successfully using the .458 Winchester Magnum against thousands of African elephants in the Rhodesian corridors during his elephant control duties up until 1968. He was using a game department issued Mannlicher Schoenauer in this caliber (identical to Terry Irwin’s rifle) and ONlY used FRESH consignments of Winchester factory loaded 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids. He did not hand load for the .458 Winchester Magnum until 2007 (when he developed duplex load for this caliber by using 475Gr DZOMBO flat nosed brass monolithic solids and 2 kinds of Somchem powder). But he used these hand loads very few times as he retired from dangerous game hunting shortly afterwards. He personally owned 2 rifles in .458 Winchester Magnum: A BSA Majestic (which was gifted to him by the late Paul Grobler) and a Flaig’s FN Mauser action custom piece (which American client Zachary Miller originally had custom built for himself but gifted to Richard after a safari in 1973).

In conclusion, If you are buying a brand new dangerous game rifle… then, there are several better options available on the modern market than a .458 Winchester Magnum. But if a .458 Winchester Magnum is easily available to you and/or you already own one, the there’s absolutely no need to feel discouraged and discard it.

When I went on my life’s first African Safari to Kenya in 1974, I noticed that the game department law stipulated a minimum bore size of .400 caliber for hunting elephant & rhinoceros & Cape buffalo & hippopotamus. Due to Kynoch completely ceasing manufacture of centerfire ammunition in 1970, there were no commercially available cartridges for the traditional British large bore rifles of .400 caliber or above (since Kynoch was the only firm to ever manufacture any ammunition for them back in those days). And hand loading was illegal in Kenya. So basically, the .458 Winchester Magnum was the only caliber for which commercially manufactured .400+ caliber ammunition was available in Kenya (only Winchester since no gun shops in Kenya ever imported any Remington brand ammunition).

My white hunter, Mr, Cheffings considerately & discreetly permitted me to take my Cape buffalo (my life’s first one) with a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (a BRNO ZKK-602 loaded with 1 RWS Kegelspitze 300Gr soft point & 5 RWS round nosed steel jacketed 300Gr FMJ solids). And I developed an immense life long respect for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum immediately.

But I did later use a .458 Winchester Magnum to take this Cape buffalo on my 3rd African Safari (to Tanzania). It was a Belgium made boxlock ejector double rifle (a “Guild Gun”) and the ammunition comprised of hand loaded 500Gr Hornady soft points and round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids. The fresh hand loads served me extremely well, and the Cape buffalo eventually folded after the first 2 shots. Although the rifle’s ejectors did fail to extract the expended cartridge cases from the breech after my 2 shots.

 

[PerH]

Those caked cases was not a good sign .

As professor Mawla wrote here one time ( pls get him back to keyboard let his students have self study for a few days )

He wrote that he has the ammo boxes in tight Tupperware plastic boxes with a couple bags of the silica gel bags and that ammo has been such stored for many years and it works good .


I would check brass and reload it again with new powder . But I can’t understand why they did not lengthen the case slightly longer back then

Not fully 3 inches but the .300 win mag length necked up would solved a lot and kept col close also

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

.458 Mannlicher Schoenauer:

 

[michael458]

The answer to this question needs very careful historical and ballistic assessment.

@Hunter-Habib

You have done an extraordinary job in doing the Historical and Ballistic Assessment, my hat is off to you........Very Well Done....... I certainly hope all you guys carefully study this......... there are many incredible great points made.

I am Michael458, for a reason. The first outing with my Winchester M70 458 Winchester, 22 inch barrel, was the beginning of my endearment for 458 Caliber...... After seeing it slam species to the dirt and just how effective caliber is, I was forever a 458 Fan...... The history books will probably list me as being something to do with .500 caliber, I developed 6 very successful .500 caliber cartridges and have hunted extensively with them with great success. However, that never lessened my love for .458 caliber. I also have a few of my own .458 caliber cartridges/rifles.......... all very successful.

My own 458s were and are extremely good, and more than accomplish what I wanted to do, which was a shorter, handier, faster rifle/cartridge and equal to the Mighty 458 Winchester. The 458 B&M met that challenge and exceeded. So much so, that I sold most of my 458 Lotts and 458 Winchesters, with the exception of a few, and my old 22 inch M70 458 Win I of course kept.

But we all must remember this, you can have the finest rifle, most expensive, greatest newest best of all, and the mightiest cartridge ever invented, but if you feed it crap bullets, you will get crap results!!!!!!! It really comes down to the "Bullet", it does all the heavy lifting, choose wisely and you will succeed, choose poorly, and you will fail.

Today we are blessed with Proper Designed bullets, from many corners....... You would be stupid to choose poorly with the many great choices we have within our reach.

Last year I found a bunch of 458 Winchester brass I had on hand..... I needed to do some test work both pressure and bullet tech in 458 Winchester. I found myself with nothing but my 22 inch gun left. I really did not want to bring it out of retirement and put it to work again, and that gave me a good excuse to start looking for a new production Winchester M70 to Play with!

I wanted to do some new 458 Winchester data, pressure data, I had not done any since 2013. I also had some requests to do some special research using the 400 Hammer bullets. But I did not want your typical 24 inch M70 458 Win. I wanted a 20 inch gun, while still not as handy or light, or short as a 458 B&M, it would be close, and I wanted to see if a 20 inch 458 Winchester would be a viable DG Rifle, using proper bullet tech of course. I found a new M70, sent it to Brian at SSK, had him shorten to 20 inches and add NECG Barrel band front on it. I got it back and I was very very happy with the results.............

Now it was time to go to work.......... I added a strain gage. And got to it....... I run Oehler System 83 for doing pressure work, and LabRadar for velocity, backed up with a normal chronograph as well.

My goals were not lofty........ I wanted a 450 gr CEB Safari Solid at or around 2200 fps. I know for a fact, as I have done it, that this is an excellent bullet for elephant from any angle, hippo and second+ shots on buffalo. It is so good, I don't even recommend heavier for cartridges that have more capacity, such as 458 Lott, the 450 will do what you need. Considering the 458 Winchester case capacity, it should have always been used with 450 gr bullets, 500s are a waste of time.

Normal specs on 458 Winchester you would like to keep it at 60000 PSI or so, but with modern guns, and modern brass 62000 PSI does not concern me.

I use a good bit of IMR 8208, its a great do everything sort of powder....... I was able to hit 2231 fps at 60000 PSI and 2271 fps at 62100 PSI with the 450 CEB Solids and IMR 8208. Very acceptable.

AA 2230 is touted as probably the best powder for 458 Winchester, I can't really discount that thought, even though I am not a AA 2230 fan per say. I have seen big differences in the chemistry of AA 2230 from a batch in 2011 to another batch in 2013. I found some new AA 2230 and it was not the same blend, or even kernal shape as the 2013 AA 2230 I had on hand, really two different powders. I was able to achieve 2241 fps at 59000 PSI with the 450 and AA 2022 Blend of AA 2230.

X-Terminator gave really good results as well (it is rumored that AA 2230/X-Term is the same-Maybe) I hit 2240 fps with the 450 at 59900 PSI again very acceptable.......

I surpassed my goals with the 20 inch barrel easily.......

I had some shooting friends that wanted to put the 400 Hammer to the test. Using AA 2230 2022 Blend it hovered around 2375 fps to 2400 fps at or close to 60000 PSI. Plenty good with 20 inch barrel gun. In fact, very good. They wanted some terminal test work done as well, which I did and the bullet tested very good.

Penetration in my test medium gave 22-23 inches with extreme trauma inflicted. This put the bullet well into buffalo capable, which I will not accept depth of penetration any less than 18 inches of being buffalo capable. I stated as much to the guys, and in a few weeks one of them was off to Africa for buffalo, with the 400 Hammer bullets. He was indeed successful in his endeavor, taking a nice bull and the 400 Hammer proved to be more than enough to do the job proper.........

Now, 20 years ago we would have never considered a 400 gr bullet in .458 for buffalo, would we? Oh, crap, well almost anyway, in 2000 I was in Zimbabwe busting lions with my 22 inch 458 Win adn 400 gr Swift A Frames....... well that is all I had at the time, and I had this chance at buffalo, so I took it, careful shot, behind shoulder, lungs, 30 steps it was over...... I did recover the bullet as well, it did fine, but not something I would recommend........ being a great premium 400 gr bullet, its still not a buffalo bullet.......The 400 Hammer has a lot of penetration advantage over conventional premiums.

Bullet tech enhances every cartridge.

The 458 Winchester using proper bullet tech is a supreme top of the line DG Cartridge......... Choose your bullet wisely, you will be successful..............

Now I am off to the range to play with a 50-90.............. and some 510 Solids and 475 Raptors..... Later.............

 

[Bert01]

@Mike458, I was able to visit with you once as a young man when one of my shooting mentors was testing some 22 bench-rest rifles in your tunnel. You were so gracious to answer all of my questions and you even gave me a stock for one of my first model 70 builds. I was just reading through this thread and was thinking about that trip. I wanted to say thank you and let you know how much I appreciated that and the information you contribute.

 

[mdwest]

458 WM is a bit more gun than I want to have to deal with as a client... but with todays modern bullets and even several factory load options, I wouldnt hesitate to use one on any DG as long as it was a reliable firearm stoked with a good loading if thats what was available to me at the time..

416 is as much gun as I want to shoot, and 4/5 times I'll take the 375 over the 416... so 458 WM isnt a consideration for me at all... and were I a DG PH I'd probably step things up to a no kidding "stopping" cartridge (500 NE? 500 Jeff? 505 Gibbs? maybe a 470 NE?).. so for me, I dont really see a place for the 458 WM in DG hunting (not good for me as a client, and a bit on the low side as a "stopping" rifle for a PH)... but.. Im sure the 458 WM is a perfect fit for some client hunters..

 

[IvW]

It can do it but there are better choices for an all of the big 5 cartridge.....375 H&H, 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby, 416 Rem......etc.

 

[Green Chile]

To the original question (I didn't read 3 pages of replies), the 458 win mag was used extensively by Zim Parks with the old loads and bullets effectively. With modern powders kicking the 500's out more to spec and excellent solid bullets, the 458 win mag is more effective than ever. Move it out to Lott specs and it's as good as anything available. 458 win mag and 458 Lott are some of my favorites for thick skinned DG (plus you can find ammo everywhere). I'm spending more time with the flat point solids and especially the cup point solids (taking some next week to Zim for bull elephant) and I wouldn't be surprised to see exits on head shots with the 416 Rigby...458 would also do very well with zero concerns in my using them. All of that is assuming that the operator can control the gun well. Recoil levels are higher than most have practiced for.

 

[michael458]

I was able to visit with you once as a young man when one of my shooting mentors was testing some 22 bench-rest rifles

I remember Don bringing several people, he conducted those tests two or three times as I recall....... We will miss Don greatly, knew him for many years..........

I wanted to say thank you and let you know how much I appreciated that and the information you contribute.

No thanks needed....... hopefully you can plan another visit sometime..........

 

[Rare Breed]

lol while this is an old thread I bet @ toby458 must have comed unglued. Not only a 458WM a great gun for anything on this earth, my good friend Toby can shoot the eye out of a nat at 100 yards with his

 

[Doug3006]

The technical and historical knowledge of the members of this forum is amazing! Hats off to @Hunter-Habib and @michael458 for the wealth of information. I own a 458 Lott, but would not hesitate to buy and use a 458 WM for DG hunting.

 

[Forrest Halley]

lol while this is an old thread I bet @ toby458 must have comed unglued. Not only a 458WM a great gun for anything on this earth, my good friend Toby can shoot the eye out of a nat at 100 yards with his

No he can't. He probably sold it since you last saw him.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@michael458 & @Doug3006 , thank you both so much. Sorry for the late reply. I just returned home from a mixed bag hunt in Tanzania. Michael 458 makes so many excellent points, esp. in regards to Cutting Edge Bullets. I will go so far as to call their brass solids the very best on the current market. I used them even this year to take my most recent hippopotamus bull on land.