Solving Bullet Setback in .416 Rigby

[dneaster3]

CZ 550 Safari Magnum .416 Rigby
Norma Brass, new and/or once fired
350 gr Speer Hot Cor loaded to 2550 fps
Not new to reloading for hunting rifles, but definitely still learning the Rigby cartridge. .

I am pleased with the accuracy and have been practicing standing offhand shooting and reloading. All good ballistically and getting better handling the rifle.

However, when I leave a cartridge in the magazine and top off, within 2-3 rounds I can see visible bullet setback. Leave it in for 4 or 5 and the bullet is pushed well back into the case, with the mouth of the case forward of the bullet ogive.
So in addition to the Lyman two-die set I added a Lee Factory Crimp die to my setup.
Bullet is seated to the cannelure and then crimped.
Improving neck tension consistency increased velocity to 2650 and ES/SD improved dramatically... so that's nice.
But the bullet setback from impact inside the magazine is still happening.

I could crank down harder on the die, but is there a limit to the crimp pressure to impose on the brass?
Any suggestions on what to do next?

 

[USMA84DAB]

You will have to add a shoulder to your magazine box so that the cartridges are stopped by the shoulders vs. the bullet tips. You could add a pad for the bullets to the front of the mag box, but it probably is going to be the shoulder bumps that do the trick. Mauser tailored each magazine box to the cartridge to preclude this, even on just 8mm/7mm/6.5mm, etc.. This tailoring is also why a VZ24 Mauser action won't feed some short/stubby .30-06 loadings - the feed ramps are not made to release the cartridge at the correct time and the 150grainers nose into the bolt raceway vs. going into the chamber.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

A standard combined bullet seat and crimp due may crimp well enough to hold the bullet in place during recoil. Then again, probably not!

I buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for all the cartridges they are available for. At $25 they are cheap insurance.

 

[PARA45]

Have you shot factory ammo through that rifle to see if this happens to them? I would try that to see what happens. My guess would be that maybe you are not putting a strong enough crimp on your reloaded cartridges.

When I loaded 44 Mag using one of the slow burning powders, I would see unburned powder residue in the barrel. I had to crimp the cartridges and had to put a heavy crimp on them. It was noticeable.

I've never reloaded for the 416 R, and I hopefully one day own one.

Keep us posted on what you find out.

 

[DrBob]

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

A standard combined bullet seat and crimp due may crimp well enough to hold the bullet in place during recoil. Then again, probably not!

I buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for all the cartridges they are available for. At $25 they are cheap insurance.

LEE 416 RIGBY 1-1/4-12 FACTORY CRIMP DIE - Graf & Sons

Lee 416 RIGBY [1 1/4-12 thread] Factory Crimp Die (custom over-run) crimps the bullet in place more firmly than any other tool. Tests demonstrate that even bullets which have no crimp groove will shoot more accurately. A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level...

www.grafs.com

39 bucks and worth it. Corbin makes a hand cannulare tool that helps..

http://www.swage.com/ftp/hct-1.pdf

 

[baxterb]

CZ 550 Safari Magnum .416 Rigby
Norma Brass, new and/or once fired
350 gr Speer Hot Cor loaded to 2550 fps
Not new to reloading for hunting rifles, but definitely still learning the Rigby cartridge. .

I am pleased with the accuracy and have been practicing standing offhand shooting and reloading. All good ballistically and getting better handling the rifle.

However, when I leave a cartridge in the magazine and top off, within 2-3 rounds I can see visible bullet setback. Leave it in for 4 or 5 and the bullet is pushed well back into the case, with the mouth of the case forward of the bullet ogive.
So in addition to the Lyman two-die set I added a Lee Factory Crimp die to my setup.
Bullet is seated to the cannelure and then crimped.
Improving neck tension consistency increased velocity to 2650 and ES/SD improved dramatically... so that's nice.
But the bullet setback from impact inside the magazine is still happening.

I could crank down harder on the die, but is there a limit to the crimp pressure to impose on the brass?
Any suggestions on what to do next?

Do you have a pic of the crimp? Hard to think if the brass of crimped into the cannelure that it can seat deeper? Is the mouth of the case deformed ?

 

[IvW]

Use longer 410gr bullets or fit a spacer in the magazine....the shorter bullets are creating too much space in the mag hammering the bullets back into the case....350gr bullets and high velocity defeats the object of a .416 Rigby....just my opinion.....

 

[DrBob]

Do you have a pic of the crimp? Hard to think if the brass of crimped into the cannelure that it can seat deeper? Is the mouth of the case deformed ?

The beauty of the Lee crimp die is no compressive pressure exerted on the case.

 

[deewayne2003]

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

A standard combined bullet seat and crimp due may crimp well enough to hold the bullet in place during recoil. Then again, probably not!

I buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for all the cartridges they are available for. At $25 they are cheap insurance.

Agreed!…. LFCD and your problem is solved

 

[R eight]

CZ 550 Safari Magnum .416 Rigby
Norma Brass, new and/or once fired
350 gr Speer Hot Cor loaded to 2550 fps
Not new to reloading for hunting rifles, but definitely still learning the Rigby cartridge. .

I am pleased with the accuracy and have been practicing standing offhand shooting and reloading. All good ballistically and getting better handling the rifle.

However, when I leave a cartridge in the magazine and top off, within 2-3 rounds I can see visible bullet setback. Leave it in for 4 or 5 and the bullet is pushed well back into the case, with the mouth of the case forward of the bullet ogive.
So in addition to the Lyman two-die set I added a Lee Factory Crimp die to my setup.
Bullet is seated to the cannelure and then crimped.
Improving neck tension consistency increased velocity to 2650 and ES/SD improved dramatically... so that's nice.
But the bullet setback from impact inside the magazine is still happening.

I could crank down harder on the die, but is there a limit to the crimp pressure to impose on the brass?
Any suggestions on what to do next?

Try that. I also use a lee factory crimp die on my 426 Rigby. It’s the only cartridge that I do use a crimp on. I’ve never had a problem with the bullet moving in the case.
Enjoy your 416 Rigby.

 

[geoff rath]

One "trick" I was alerted to is to avoid expanding the neck of the case; simply seat the bullet into a body-sized case, then crimp. This should give tension on all of the bullet sitting within the case neck; the crimp adds to it... Combined with a shoulder in the magazine you'll never have a problem again.

 

[dneaster3]

Thanks for all of the inputs, guys. A few highlights and responses...

You will have to add a shoulder to your magazine box so that the cartridges are stopped by the shoulders vs. the bullet tips.

That's an interesting idea. If you have an online or in print source where I could learn more, I'm all ears.
That said, I've got to think that this issue would have a non-gunsmithing resolution. There are a lot of CZ 550's out there, plus Winchester 70's and Ruger 77's, and I do not think any of those have shouldered magazines, do they?

Use longer 410gr bullets or fit a spacer in the magazine....the shorter bullets are creating too much space in the mag hammering the bullets back into the case....

Bullets are loaded to cartridge specs and just a few thou off the lands. Longer bullets would protrude the same distance out the front and would just use up case capacity.
Spacer is an interesting idea, though. Along the same line as the added shoulder in the magazine. Know where I could see an example?

350gr bullets and high velocity defeats the object of a .416 Rigby....just my opinion.....

Agreed. 350's are my inexpensive (a relative term) practice rounds. 2600 is the standard velocity for that bullet weight, though I would prefer 2500 just because any more is unnecessary.
For hunting I will use 400 grain Barnes TSX's and 400 grain Barnes Banded Solids, both at around 2400.

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

My guess would be that maybe you are not putting a strong enough crimp on

Agreed!…. LFCD and your problem is solved

Try that. I also use a lee factory crimp die on my 426 Rigby.

Thanks for the validation, gents. I loaded up some rounds tonight and tightened the Lee Factory Crimp Die down enough that I had to hmph to get it to cam over in my Rock Chucker press. On the first one I was concerned about what I'd find, but the brass and bullet both look unharmed.

I'll give it a try in the next week or two or three and let you guys know what comes of it.

 

[Hyde Hunter]

are you by chance using a sonic cleaner for your cases? sometimes the inside of the case is to clean and is slick, this is were powder residue is ok

 

[wswolf]

You might check your expander ball. It should have .003" smaller diameter than the bullet diameter. If necessary chuck it in a drill and reduce it's dimeter with emery cloth.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Thanks for all of the inputs, guys. A few highlights and responses...

That's an interesting idea. If you have an online or in print source where I could learn more, I'm all ears.
That said, I've got to think that this issue would have a non-gunsmithing resolution. There are a lot of CZ 550's out there, plus Winchester 70's and Ruger 77's, and I do not think any of those have shouldered magazines, do they?


Bullets are loaded to cartridge specs and just a few thou off the lands. Longer bullets would protrude the same distance out the front and would just use up case capacity.
Spacer is an interesting idea, though. Along the same line as the added shoulder in the magazine. Know where I could see an example?


Agreed. 350's are my inexpensive (a relative term) practice rounds. 2600 is the standard velocity for that bullet weight, though I would prefer 2500 just because any more is unnecessary.
For hunting I will use 400 grain Barnes TSX's and 400 grain Barnes Banded Solids, both at around 2400.





Thanks for the validation, gents. I loaded up some rounds tonight and tightened the Lee Factory Crimp Die down enough that I had to hmph to get it to cam over in my Rock Chucker press. On the first one I was concerned about what I'd find, but the brass and bullet both look unharmed.

I'll give it a try in the next week or two or three and let you guys know what comes of it.

Good afternoon.

I have loaded 416 Rigby for a CZ and now I reload it for a Rigby Big Game. I use Hornady dies, and I have never had bullet set back. Last year I broke down and bought a Lee factory crimp die and use it for ammo I load for Africa. My Barnes 350gr load is moving just over 2400 fps so it shoots to same POA/POI as the 400gr loads (in my rifle). It does a lot of damage on plains game, alomost removing the off shoulder on some.

My question is, does your Lee Factory Crimp Die fit in a standard 7/8"-14 thread Rock Chucker? Mine is a large series die (1 1/4" - 12 thread) and I have it in a Lee Classic Cast press that will accommodate the larger die.

Safe shooting

 

[450 Dakota]

I would turn the crimp die down some more. You can also switch to a slower powder to fill up the case more

 

[fourfive8]

OP stated he uses Lee FCD. Be sure to back bullet seating die out some so the crimp shoulder in that die doesn’t contact case mouth. That crimping shoulder can be counter productive to increased neck tension and decrease effectiveness of the FCD. Trim all brass to same length. Seat bullet so case mouth is at front edge of bullet crimp groove. Set FCD die for full compression. Watch top of die as collet fingers compress the leading edge of the case mouth. Setting deeper than that will not increase crimp as the collet fingers cannot compress each other. Using compressed powder column to prevent bullet setback is not a wise way to prevent bullet set back.

 

[baxterb]

OP stated he uses Lee FCD. Be sure to back bullet seating die out some so the crimp shoulder in that die doesn’t contact case mouth. That crimping shoulder can be counter productive to increased neck tension and decrease effectiveness of the FCD. Trim all brass to same length. Seat bullet so case mouth is at front edge of bullet crimp groove. Set FCD die for full compression. Watch top of die as collet fingers compress the leading edge of the case mouth. Setting deeper than that will not increase crimp as the collet fingers cannot compress each other. Using compressed powder column to prevent bullet setback is not a wise way to prevent bullet set back.

Read my mind. I do exactly this with ALL, yes ALL, my reloads.

 

[steve white]

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die.

A standard combined bullet seat and crimp due may crimp well enough to hold the bullet in place during recoil. Then again, probably not!

I buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die for all the cartridges they are available for. At $25 they are cheap insurance.

I believe he is already using one, specifically. Surprising, since I have not had them fail to make a good crimp.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Also, a useful technique is to make the first crimp, then lower the ram and turn the cartridge 1/8th turn and crimp again. This smooths out the wall of the neck to eliminate possible feeding problems.