Sheesh……………..

[Wishfulthinker580]

Winchester pre-64 Model 70 .416 Remington, magnum action, 20-inch, banded, express, 97 percent, layaway, Federal Premium ammo available

Winchester pre-64 Model 70 .416 Remington, magnum action, 20-inch, banded, express, 97 percent, layaway, Federal Premium ammo available for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

Need I say more?

 

[Flewis]

Winchester pre-64 Model 70 .416 Remington, magnum action, 20-inch, banded, express, 97 percent, layaway, Federal Premium ammo available

Winchester pre-64 Model 70 .416 Remington, magnum action, 20-inch, banded, express, 97 percent, layaway, Federal Premium ammo available for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

View attachment 527690
Need I say more?

Wow!

 

[WAB]

This looks to be a commercial seller. Obviously one not overly familiar with CRF designs.

 

[sierraone]

This looks to be a commercial seller. Obviously one not overly familiar with CRF designs.

This is a push feed?

 

[R.M.C.]

"Moderate pressure" lol

 

[WAB]

This is a push feed?

No it’s CRF M70 and he’s concerned that the extractor doesn’t ‘pop’ over the rim when he drops a shell in the chamber and attempts to close the bolt!

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

This looks to be a commercial seller. Obviously one not overly familiar with CRF designs.

What’s crazy to me is that this seller has quite a bit of firearms for sale that are more traditional i.e. blued steel and walnut. Some higher end stuff even

 

[Berettaco]

Wow! Guess they sell more than they shoot

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Apparently it’s a pattern with them..

Granite Mountain Arms .404 Jeffery, double square bridge magnum Mauser, 3-position safety, 4+1 capacity, Smithson stock, 9.4 pounds, 98 percent - Sportsman's Legacy, Fine firearms, related books and sporting collectibles. Representing estates, collec

Granite Mountain Arms .404 Jeffery. Completed for a shooting industry VIP in 2012, serial 518SRV is a proper dangerous game rifle based on the GMA double square bridge magnum Mauser action. The 24-inch heavy sporter barrel (muzzle diameter .700-inch) has a banded front ramp with large fiber...

sportsmanslegacy.com

 

[Aaron N]

Some people consider the ability to snap over the rim of a cartridge an improvement over the original design.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Some people consider the ability to snap over the rim of a cartridge an improvement over the original design.

I can kinda sorta see that from an excrement hits the fan DG perspective but I’m not convinced it would make much of a difference time wise. You would have to save that for a last resort and not make a habit out of it.

And even in that case wouldn’t it be better to do the same thing every single time in order to build up muscle memory. Down to the most minute detail?

 

[fourfive8]

Well I don’t quite understand all the angst about the rifle in the ad. No matter because it looks like it’s in sale pending status. It appears to be legit and exactly as seller describes. The only questions I’d have would include: why a 20” bbl and why only one cross bolt? I’d prefer a 24” bbl and two cross bolts in the 416 Rem. Those choices were likely determined by the owner who commissioned the job. But overall that rifle has a lot going for it, IMO.

Since a Win 70 extractor’s guide cut in the bolt is not beveled like many Mausers, some will pop over the rim as push feeds do. Also some CRF extractors will not pop over because of inadequate relief in the lug cut outs in the receiver. Some of it may also depend upon the front profile of the extractor. Some have been slightly modified to pop over more easily. Not at all a bad idea for a CRF extractor design that allows it to pop over the rim… if the extractor is strong and healthy otherwise. There is one overlooked huge potential issue caused by CRF extractors that don’t pop over… and it may come back to bite at the most stressful, inopportune time ??? Go ahead and drop a round in on top of the follower or into an open chamber in a real hurry and under stress. Then with equal haste, determination and force try to close an older design Mauser bolt to chamber the round for a shot. Almost guaranteed the result will be a live round jammed tight in the chamber and no easy way to extract it. So much for the flawless design of that type CRF.

 

[Aaron N]

Well I don’t quite understand all the angst about the rifle in the ad. No matter because it looks like it’s in sale pending status. It appears to be legit and exactly as seller describes. The only questions I’d have would include: why a 20” bbl and why only one cross bolt? I’d prefer a 24” bbl and two cross bolts in the 416 Rem. Those choices were likely determined by the owner who commissioned the job. But overall that rifle has a lot going for it, IMO.

Since a Win 70 extractor’s guide cut in the bolt is not beveled like many Mausers, some will pop over the rim as push feeds do. Also some CRF extractors will not pop over because of inadequate relief in the lug cut outs in the receiver. Some of it may also depend upon the front profile of the extractor. Some have been slightly modified to pop over more easily. Not at all a bad idea for a CRF extractor design that allows it to pop over the rim… if the extractor is strong and healthy otherwise. There is one overlooked huge potential issue caused by CRF extractors that don’t pop over… and it may come back to bite at the most stressful, inopportune time ??? Go ahead and drop a round in on top of the follower or into an open chamber in a real hurry and under stress. Then with equal haste, determination and force try to close an older design Mauser bolt to chamber the round for a shot. Almost guaranteed the result will be a live round jammed tight in the chamber and no easy way to extract it. So much for the flawless design of that type CRF.

I believe that @One Day... did an excellent write up on this

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Am I wrong in thinking the LOP was on the short side?

 

[One Day...]

Thanks Aaron N

For everyone's convenience, here it is...

There is nothing wrong with the ad or the seller, they accurately describe how Winchester deals with the claw extractor issue. See here under.

Some see the Win 70 departure from the original Mauser design as an advantage (being able to load a cartridge directly into the chamber); and some - including me - see it as a misunderstanding of the true Mauser extractor purpose and design, and the removal of the true impossibility for the extractor of an unmodified military Mauser to 1) jump the rim and fail to extract; 2) close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber and forgotten there, which has been a documented cause of accidental discharges.

best bolt action for dangerous games

Apologies if this is incorrect, as I am no expert, but I always had the impression that the beveling which allows the extractor to snap over the rim of the cartridge in the chamber was done to the face of the extractor. If this is so I don't see that such beveling would greatly increase the risk...

www.africahunting.com

Christian Davis said:
Apologies if this is incorrect, as I am no expert, but I always had the impression that the beveling which allows the extractor to snap over the rim of the cartridge in the chamber was done to the face of the extractor. If this is so I don't see that such beveling would greatly increase the risk of extractor failure. Of course I may be mistaken. I have attached images to illustrate what I have in mind. Thanks all for your contributions to the discussion!

Doug Hamilton said:
That's the way I've always thought of it as well, but I'm not an expert, mechanical engineer or gunsmith either. Now I just don't know what the right answer is. I have two rifles with Mark X actions. One in .458 WM and the other in .300 Win M. The .458 neatly snaps over the rim of a case in the chamber, the .300 doesn't. I never had either extractor altered. I am used to them and just use them as they are. They both extract reliably, and I like knowing that I can start out with one extra round with dangerous game.

No apologies needed Christian, this is a rather arcane point

But it becomes very real when the extractor breaks, because -- of course! -- it always happens at the worst possible time in the worst possible place

But -- dare I use the dreaded "trust me!" ? -- break they do...

In truth, if you go back to the drawings I used to illustrate the discussion, depending on how much tolerance is built in the action, it may or may not be necessary to remove material off the face and top of the extractor to allow it to rotate upward in the front bridge and jump over a cartridge rim.

This differs widely between an original pre-war Mauser action and some of the more modern clones -- some of which have so much tolerance in the raceway as to make the very notion of "tolerance" irrelevant, it is more like "wide clearance" (which makes folks erroneously believe that they are "smooth" when actually all they are is "loose").

Winchester, for example, "resolved" the beveling question by having so much clearance in the raceway on the right inside of the front bridge that their extractor could jump the rim of an artillery shell

Original Mausers are tight enough that an unmodified extractor CANNOT jump the rim, which was the entire point of the design to begin with

In my experience, CZ, Zastava, Santa Barbara, etc. are all over the place, which is indeed illustrated by your experience with the Mark X action (imported by InterArms but made by Zastava if memory serves) @doug, with one action closing on a loaded chamber and one not closing.

The entire discussion can be visualized in the drawings, and it is rather intuitive that what allows the extractor to lift/rotate itself over a cartridge rim is whether there is room for it to be lifted/rotated upward or not. All that chamfering the front edge of the extractor hook does, is, originally, to conform to the chamfered groove cut in the cartridge head and allow it to grab it, and, nowadays, to allow it to slide upward on the cartridge head. The real enabler is whether there is room for the extractor to move upward or not.

In the following drawings, the first one represents a Winchester M70; the second one represents a non-modified Mauser 98; and the third & fourth ones represent where modified extractors are beveled, and the risk of doing so...

As I said before, to each their own, but the Mauser system was actually much more clever and anticipated many more issues than most modern folks realize, while using unarguable logic, e.g. if the extractor has space to jump the rim going in, then it has space to jump the rim coming out.

There is also some incredibly smart thinking going in the shape of the firing pin, design of the flag safety, etc. etc.

As to whether "slipping a cartridge directly in the chamber" is faster than clicking one in the magazine for a desperate emergency reload, I invite those who think that slipping one in the chamber is faster, to practice doing both and asking their wife to clock them doing so. Here is the catch (pun fully intended): quite often the cartridge just dropped on top of the empty magazine does not slide forward IN THE CENTER of the action, aligned with the chamber, quite often, it catches on the rear edge of the chamber, especially with semi truncated solids.

Do yourself a favor, do not believe me, try it for yourself

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thanks Aaron N

For everyone's convenience, here it is...

There is nothing wrong with the ad or the seller, they accurately describe how Winchester deals with the claw extractor issue. See here under.

Some see the Win 70 departure from the original Mauser design as an advantage (being able to load a cartridge directly into the chamber); and some - including me - see it as a misunderstanding of the true Mauser extractor purpose and design, and the removal of the true impossibility for the extractor of an unmodified military Mauser to 1) jump the rim and fail to extract; 2) close the bolt on a cartridge inadvertently pushed in the chamber and forgotten there, which has been a documented cause of accidental discharges.

best bolt action for dangerous games

Apologies if this is incorrect, as I am no expert, but I always had the impression that the beveling which allows the extractor to snap over the rim of the cartridge in the chamber was done to the face of the extractor. If this is so I don't see that such beveling would greatly increase the risk...

www.africahunting.com

No apologies needed Christian, this is a rather arcane point

But it becomes very real when the extractor breaks, because -- of course! -- it always happens at the worst possible time in the worst possible place

But -- dare I use the dreaded "trust me!" ? -- break they do...

In truth, if you go back to the drawings I used to illustrate the discussion, depending on how much tolerance is built in the action, it may or may not be necessary to remove material off the face and top of the extractor to allow it to rotate upward in the front bridge and jump over a cartridge rim.

This differs widely between an original pre-war Mauser action and some of the more modern clones -- some of which have so much tolerance in the raceway as to make the very notion of "tolerance" irrelevant, it is more like "wide clearance" (which makes folks erroneously believe that they are "smooth" when actually all they are is "loose").

Winchester, for example, "resolved" the beveling question by having so much clearance in the raceway on the right inside of the front bridge that their extractor could jump the rim of an artillery shell

Original Mausers are tight enough that an unmodified extractor CANNOT jump the rim, which was the entire point of the design to begin with

In my experience, CZ, Zastava, Santa Barbara, etc. are all over the place, which is indeed illustrated by your experience with the Mark X action (imported by InterArms but made by Zastava if memory serves) @doug, with one action closing on a loaded chamber and one not closing.

The entire discussion can be visualized in the drawings, and it is rather intuitive that what allows the extractor to lift/rotate itself over a cartridge rim is whether there is room for it to be lifted/rotated upward or not. All that chamfering the front edge of the extractor hook does, is, originally, to conform to the chamfered groove cut in the cartridge head and allow it to grab it, and, nowadays, to allow it to slide upward on the cartridge head. The real enabler is whether there is room for the extractor to move upward or not.

In the following drawings, the first one represents a Winchester M70; the second one represents a non-modified Mauser 98; and the third & fourth ones represent where modified extractors are beveled, and the risk of doing so...

As I said before, to each their own, but the Mauser system was actually much more clever and anticipated many more issues than most modern folks realize, while using unarguable logic, e.g. if the extractor has space to jump the rim going in, then it has space to jump the rim coming out.

There is also some incredibly smart thinking going in the shape of the firing pin, design of the flag safety, etc. etc.

As to whether "slipping a cartridge directly in the chamber" is faster than clicking one in the magazine for a desperate emergency reload, I invite those who think that slipping one in the chamber is faster, to practice doing both and asking their wife to clock them doing so. Here is the catch (pun fully intended): quite often the cartridge just dropped on top of the empty magazine does not slide forward IN THE CENTER of the action, aligned with the chamber, quite often, it catches on the rear edge of the chamber, especially with semi truncated solids.

Do yourself a favor, do not believe me, try it for yourself

So your saying a standard Mauser converted to 3+1 404 Jeff should never be more than 3 + 0?

 

[Inline6]

So your saying a standard Mauser converted to 3+1 404 Jeff should never be more than 3 + 0?

No, fill it from the bottom.

 

[freefall]

My Business Rifle started life as a 1st gen Ruger MkII with the beauteous "canoe paddle" stock. I'm pretty sure it push-fed the cartridges and clicked over them with a Mauser style claw. I had the bottom of the bolt face relieved so they could slide under the extractor in true CRF fashion, but considered the ability to drop one in the top in an emergency to be a positive.
But perhaps I'm full of poop. This all took place about 35 years ago and as I age I find my brain turning into a purple milkshake.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

No, fill it from the bottom.

Seriously? So somehow I didn't manage to kill old dagga boy with four shots and he has decided to turn me into human hamburger. I should expect the angry bull will take a coffee break while I fumble with locking a round in the magazine and then loading it into the chamber? Or popping the floor plate open to fully load up? No thanks. I want a gun that will let me drop a round in the action and close the bolt all in one movement. No snap over is no good for dangerous game.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

You misunderstood his post… He’s talking about loading up like that from the get go.. Also, you MAY be able to depress the spring and follower just enough to slide the rim of the +1 cartridge under the extractor and chamber it that way although the reason for being able to load in that manner (good vs bad) may be arguable as well? That’s the only way it SHOULD be +1. Not the “snap over” push feed way you describe. Historically speaking