Need help with this firearm

Ridge Runner

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These are WWII Japanese rifle Arisaka, Type 99, Imperial (Japanese) Army, believe to be 7.7 x 58mm or Type 35, 6.5 x 50mm caliber.

Any information and help will be appreciated.


IMG_20220326_121824501.jpg
IMG_20220326_121951249.jpg
IMG_20220326_121923404.jpg
IMG_20220326_122155677.jpg
 
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Those are Type 99 Arisakas, so 7.7mm Japanese.

They appear to be late-war (substitute-standard/"last ditch") owing to the general fit and finish, the lack of front sight wings, the lack of rear sights except for a basic notch, and one of rifles having the unfinished angular bolt knob instead of the plum-shaped rounded-off one.

The bayonet likewise is a late-war sub-standard/last ditch one with the guard being a solid rectangle, the blade lacking a fuller, and overall of lower production quality versus even a mid-war bayonet.

For comparison...

Early/Pre-war:
1648313075199.png


Mid-war:
1648313097098.png


Late-war "substitute standard":
1648313169004.png


Late-war "last ditch":
1648313192769.png
 
Hi WebleyGreene455,

Thanks for your help and the information on these 2 rifles and the bayonet.

Now the next question for WWII historians and those who my know about this:

Being a bit of a history buff myself, there is some information around that the Japanese, knowing how US GI's like to collect souviners, booby traped/produced rifles that would blow up, blow the bolt back, into a GI's/ shooters face and these rifles would be purposely littered around a battlefield for GI's to pick up with intent to kill unsuspecting soldiers.

Do you know if this is true or false?

And if true, which rifles were designed in this manner and is there a list of serial numbers to identify such rifles?
 
Hi WebleyGreene455,

Thanks for your help and the information on these 2 rifles and the bayonet.

Now the next question for WWII historians and those who my know about this:

Being a bit of a history buff myself, there is some information around that the Japanese, knowing how US GI's like to collect souviners, booby traped/produced rifles that would blow up, blow the bolt back, into a GI's/ shooters face and these rifles would be purposely littered around a battlefield for GI's to pick up with intent to kill unsuspecting soldiers.

Do you know if this is true or false?

And if true, which rifles were designed in this manner and is there a list of serial numbers to identify such rifles?
Howdy Ridge Runner.

I'm 99% sure no rifles were ever designed to blow GI up or anything like that. As I said, these are last-ditch/substitute-standard rifles where production was simplified to the point that they could make them faster and as cheaply as possible. Considering Japan's resources and tactics, making rifles that could intentionally fail just in case a GI picked one up would be a waste of those all-too-valuable resources; by the later half of the war, Japan was reduced to sending military police into houses to forcibly acquire any metal that could be used for their war effort.

Some of those stories come from the rifles at the end of the war allegedly being of such poor quality that they went boom. Or perhaps they were loaded with overpressured handloaded ammunition post-war (or in sporterized/converted rifles) that caused a catastrophic failure. But I think that's all apocryphal or has that one-in-a-thousand grain of truth that gets spread around and becomes well-known "fact". As an example, there's a story that the IJA was reduced to using wooden bullets; the IJA did use wooden or paper bullets in their 7.7mm cartridges but these were for training purposes, function testing, or possibly for rifle grenades and not as battlefield soldier-to-soldier ammunition unless there was a mix-up in the supply lines.

There WERE smoothbore training rifles for schools et cetera that were outwardly looked nearly identical to the Type 38 in every way but were essentially blank-fire-only and not designed to work with live ammunition. Cast-iron or mild steel receivers, undersized (or incomplete) bores, rough fit and finish, and most importantly: Marked for blank-fire-only. I don't think most non-Japanese at the time could read Japanese, especially not your average GI, and quite possibly some of them picked up a training rifle as a souvenir and didn't realize it wasn't actually intended to be shot with live ammo, which could go horribly wrong, I'm sure.

However, the Type 23 hand grenade (actually a Chinese grenade) could certainly be used to booby-trap a corpse or a crate or a rifle or what-have-you, but in this case the rifle would be used as bait and have a grenade attached to it in such a way that when the GI picked it up, the pin would come out and the grenade would detonate. Swords and Nambu pistols might've also been prime bait for such booby traps, just as knives/daggers and Lugers were prime targets in the European Theater. Type 99 grenades could be used to an extent for booby traps but since they required a rap to a hard surface to prime the mechanism after the pin was pulled, they were mostly used as makeshift mines where a GI could inadvertently step on one and trigger the explosive or as a last-minute suicide bomb for a wounded soldier.

As for serial numbers, here's how they work. The tiny circular marking at the beginning (the photo is upside down, I'm reading it as if it was right-side-up) is a Series marker. Starting around 1933, Japanese production added a symbol to indicate which series/block of (ideally) 99,999 rifles was being produced at a given time, with certain arsenals only producing rifles in that series. For example, Nagoya Arsenal produced rifles in blocks 1 through 12, Kokura only produced blocks 20 through 25, and Toyo Kogyo produced blocks 30 through 35. Production was concurrent between factories, so Kokura might've been making block 25 at the same time Nagoya was making block 12, but Kokura would never have made block 32, if that makes sense.

In this case, I can't quite read the block symbol but I think it's Block 10, as the symbol at the end is the one for Nagoya Arsenal. Serial number is obviously in the 90,000s so more or less towards the end of that block's production. I THINK that would make it late 1943, maybe early 1944. Possibly it's Block 12, making it 1945 (more or less).

Also, like @baxterb asked, are the Imperial Chrysanthemums still intact on the receiver rings? It's unlikely; most of them were ground off or defaced by the Japanese to avoid insult and dishonor to the Emperor, as the 'mum indicated the rifle (or indeed any weapon with one) was the Emperor's personal property and it would be gross dishonor for it to be stolen or surrendered intact.

~~W.G.455
 
Howdy Ridge Runner.

I'm 99% sure no rifles were ever designed to blow GI up or anything like that. As I said, these are last-ditch/substitute-standard rifles where production was simplified to the point that they could make them faster and as cheaply as possible. Considering Japan's resources and tactics, making rifles that could intentionally fail just in case a GI picked one up would be a waste of those all-too-valuable resources; by the later half of the war, Japan was reduced to sending military police into houses to forcibly acquire any metal that could be used for their war effort.

Some of those stories come from the rifles at the end of the war allegedly being of such poor quality that they went boom. Or perhaps they were loaded with overpressured handloaded ammunition post-war (or in sporterized/converted rifles) that caused a catastrophic failure. But I think that's all apocryphal or has that one-in-a-thousand grain of truth that gets spread around and becomes well-known "fact". As an example, there's a story that the IJA was reduced to using wooden bullets; the IJA did use wooden or paper bullets in their 7.7mm cartridges but these were for training purposes, function testing, or possibly for rifle grenades and not as battlefield soldier-to-soldier ammunition unless there was a mix-up in the supply lines.

There WERE smoothbore training rifles for schools et cetera that were outwardly looked nearly identical to the Type 38 in every way but were essentially blank-fire-only and not designed to work with live ammunition. Cast-iron or mild steel receivers, undersized (or incomplete) bores, rough fit and finish, and most importantly: Marked for blank-fire-only. I don't think most non-Japanese at the time could read Japanese, especially not your average GI, and quite possibly some of them picked up a training rifle as a souvenir and didn't realize it wasn't actually intended to be shot with live ammo, which could go horribly wrong, I'm sure.

However, the Type 23 hand grenade (actually a Chinese grenade) could certainly be used to booby-trap a corpse or a crate or a rifle or what-have-you, but in this case the rifle would be used as bait and have a grenade attached to it in such a way that when the GI picked it up, the pin would come out and the grenade would detonate. Swords and Nambu pistols might've also been prime bait for such booby traps, just as knives/daggers and Lugers were prime targets in the European Theater. Type 99 grenades could be used to an extent for booby traps but since they required a rap to a hard surface to prime the mechanism after the pin was pulled, they were mostly used as makeshift mines where a GI could inadvertently step on one and trigger the explosive or as a last-minute suicide bomb for a wounded soldier.

As for serial numbers, here's how they work. The tiny circular marking at the beginning (the photo is upside down, I'm reading it as if it was right-side-up) is a Series marker. Starting around 1933, Japanese production added a symbol to indicate which series/block of (ideally) 99,999 rifles was being produced at a given time, with certain arsenals only producing rifles in that series. For example, Nagoya Arsenal produced rifles in blocks 1 through 12, Kokura only produced blocks 20 through 25, and Toyo Kogyo produced blocks 30 through 35. Production was concurrent between factories, so Kokura might've been making block 25 at the same time Nagoya was making block 12, but Kokura would never have made block 32, if that makes sense.

In this case, I can't quite read the block symbol but I think it's Block 10, as the symbol at the end is the one for Nagoya Arsenal. Serial number is obviously in the 90,000s so more or less towards the end of that block's production. I THINK that would make it late 1943, maybe early 1944. Possibly it's Block 12, making it 1945 (more or less).

Also, like @baxterb asked, are the Imperial Chrysanthemums still intact on the receiver rings? It's unlikely; most of them were ground off or defaced by the Japanese to avoid insult and dishonor to the Emperor, as the 'mum indicated the rifle (or indeed any weapon with one) was the Emperor's personal property and it would be gross dishonor for it to be stolen or surrendered intact.

~~W.G.455

WOW.....That is a lot of historical information. Thanks very much for the info.

Now I have to ask:

What does the "mum" look like? Just to add to my knowledge.

To the rifles:

The one rifle is of better "quality" compared to the other one in many ways. So I am going to say that the better rifle was made earlier and the "workmanship" included good materials.

The "lesser quality" rifle seems to have a smaller diameter bolt. The bolt has a "dowel" shape bolt knob, whereas the "better" rifle has a "teardrop" shape bolt knob.

Are these rifles worth restoring for resale?
With the idea to restore both and sell one to make up some or all the cost of restoring both.

I am thinking of getting one (or both to make one) just to go with my M-1 Garand. I'm also wondering if there is a caliber to rebore the barrel to as the rifling may be to well worn or pitted.

The action sucks!! It may be that it can't be easily or quickly rode forward. When I yanked the bolt back and slammed it forward it would close properly, but to ride it forward or operate as if for a hasty follow up shot as in hunting, the bolt would not budge to close.

Again any information or advise will be greatly appreciated.
 
WOW.....That is a lot of historical information. Thanks very much for the info.

Now I have to ask:

What does the "mum" look like? Just to add to my knowledge.

To the rifles:

The one rifle is of better "quality" compared to the other one in many ways. So I am going to say that the better rifle was made earlier and the "workmanship" included good materials.

The "lesser quality" rifle seems to have a smaller diameter bolt. The bolt has a "dowel" shape bolt knob, whereas the "better" rifle has a "teardrop" shape bolt knob.

Are these rifles worth restoring for resale?
With the idea to restore both and sell one to make up some or all the cost of restoring both.

I am thinking of getting one (or both to make one) just to go with my M-1 Garand. I'm also wondering if there is a caliber to rebore the barrel to as the rifling may be to well worn or pitted.

The action sucks!! It may be that it can't be easily or quickly rode forward. When I yanked the bolt back and slammed it forward it would close properly, but to ride it forward or operate as if for a hasty follow up shot as in hunting, the bolt would not budge to close.

Again any information or advise will be greatly appreciated.
This is the Imperial Chrysanthemum (and also the TYPE 99 marking). It's actually the mon (crest or seal) of the Emperor of Japan and the royal family, in the form of a stylized chrysanthemum blossom.
1648419949606.png


The trouble with bolt knobs vs rifles is that when GIs brought them back as souvenirs, they had to turn the bolts in. Basically, they just tossed them in a box until their ship got back home. As a result, bolts are generally the number one mismatched part of the rifle in most cases. A plum-shaped/teardrop-shaped bolt knob is not necessarily an accurate way of telling if the rifle itself is a earlier or later production. It also can vary depending on the factory. Not every factory made the exact same changes to simplify production and if they had extra bolt handles that weren't simplified, there was no reason not to use them as long as they had them available.

The "better condition" rifle is still a Substitute Standard by its overall appearance, and that's perfectly fine. Restoring them... I wouldn't. These are relics of a past era and while they aren't the best version of the Type 99, restoring them would be a mistake in my eyes. They're still plenty shootable, or at least one of them seems to be. Which brings me to the next paragraph.

The rifle with the screwy bolt, what-all is going on with that? Do you have the rifles on hand or can you have a look down their bores in the near future? They do have straight bolt handles, that's always a issue with a rapid follow-up. Dunno why the Japanese never adopted the bent handle like the Germans did after WWI and the Americans and Brits did long before. Even their sniper rifles had the straight handle; the scopes were offset so that the knob would still have clearance, which at least meant you could use stripper clips for a faster reload.

I'm not sure about rechambering or reboring, and if the rifle is still sound in its current condition, I wouldn't mess with it anyway. If the bore isn't salvageable and you wanted to sporterize it... In theory, the action is just as strong, if not stronger, than an M98 Mauser of the same period and Type 99s have been known to be fine with fairly beefy calibres.
 
Many thanks WebleyGreene455 and fourfive8 for the additional info and comments.

These rifles and bayonet belong to another veteran either he or another family member found stashed away as they were cleaning out a building (parents home, dad's barn, workshop, etc.) and were brought to me for examination, identification, possibility to refurbish the metal to historically correct like new condition so they could be safely fired/used and a rough estimate of their respective value.

Only one rifle has all the parts. The other is missing the magazine internal parts and the internal bolt parts. As the photos show, both rifles are rusty inside and out. The one barrel I looked though had some sort of small piece of trash in it.

The one missing the parts is the one I would think about a complete make over and perhaps consider changing the caliber to maybe something between 6mm to 8mm, a more available common caliber.

With the amount of heavy surface rust it was hard to tell (probably not) if there were any markings on top of the receiver, the mum or lettering.
 
The Soviet Army in Afghanistan"abandoned" crates of Hand grenades that had an "Instant" fuse. Pull the pin instant KaBoom!

Wonder if the Russians learned that trick of swapping out smoke grenade and frag grenade fuses from American GI's back during Vietnam.
 
UPDATE:

I have the opportunity to purchase both of these rifles and the bayonet and possibly a box of ammo.

We already have a price in mind.

Since neither of us really know what these rifles are worth I hope some of you can help give us a realistic fair value on the package deal.

Since I'm purchasing these from a friend and IMHO I think I'm low balling him on the price.

Thanks for any assistance.
 
These are WWII Japanese rifle Arisaka, Type 99, Imperial (Japanese) Army, believe to be 7.7 x 58mm or Type 35, 6.5 x 50mm caliber.

Any information and help will be appreciated.


View attachment 459130View attachment 459131View attachment 459132View attachment 459133
@Ridge Runner
They look like the one made ate the end of the war and are only suitable for wall hangers at the best. The quality is at its best described as utter junk that would NOT BE SAFE to use. From memory there was cast parts af low quality steel used in them as well.
The prewar and early war Arisaka even tho ugly was a very well finished and used high quality steels. These early ones as P.O. Ackley discovered were actually stronger than the 98 Mauser or the Enfield.
The ones you have I wouldnt even chamber a drill round for fear of a blow up.
Just my 2 cents
 
@Ridge Runner
They look like the one made ate the end of the war and are only suitable for wall hangers at the best. The quality is at its best described as utter junk that would NOT BE SAFE to use. From memory there was cast parts af low quality steel used in them as well.
The prewar and early war Arisaka even tho ugly was a very well finished and used high quality steels. These early ones as P.O. Ackley discovered were actually stronger than the 98 Mauser or the Enfield.
The ones you have I wouldnt even chamber a drill round for fear of a blow up.
Just my 2 cents

This is why I'm looking to get a box of ammo so the rifles can be test fired. My buddy found the 1 box of ammo his dad had for these rifles and sold the box of ammo before they found the rifles and bayonet.

The process will start with a thorough cleaning and inspection of each rifle. After cleaning and inspection each rifle, each rifle will then be secured down on a bench and rigged with a long pull cord attached to the triggers. Fire each 4 times and inspect after each shot, clean and inspect again.

At any point during this process any type of defects are discovered. They will be marked and labeled as"wall hangers" only.

If they pass the testing and inspecting then I can determine them as safe to shoot and use moderate hunting reloads in them.
 
This is why I'm looking to get a box of ammo so the rifles can be test fired. My buddy found the 1 box of ammo his dad had for these rifles and sold the box of ammo before they found the rifles and bayonet.

The process will start with a thorough cleaning and inspection of each rifle. After cleaning and inspection each rifle, each rifle will then be secured down on a bench and rigged with a long pull cord attached to the triggers. Fire each 4 times and inspect after each shot, clean and inspect again.

At any point during this process any type of defects are discovered. They will be marked and labeled as"wall hangers" only.

If they pass the testing and inspecting then I can determine them as safe to shoot and use moderate hunting reloads in them.
@Ridge Runner
Maybe with cast bullets and trail boss for fun but even then I would be wary
 
@Ridge Runner
Maybe with cast bullets and trail boss for fun but even then I would be wary

These 7.7s will pretty much be range and varmint, mainly coyotes, guns. 30-06s have everything else covered and just because I can, use the 458WM for black bear (1/year) and piggies (no limit, incidental while hunting other game).
 
@Ridge Runner
Should do it is basically a rimless 303 British

From the little bit of research I've done looking for reload data and along with bits and pieces of historical information it seems the 7.7 Jap is a hybrid using Brit 303 (.312) bullet and US 30-06 brass that's been tweeked to mm measurements.
 

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