Another Ph/outfitter question on quotes

Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by billc, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Ok we all know for the must part when we are looking at hunts we get a few quotes.Many things go into picking a place and for me a few would be.How the ph comes across to me as we talk.Then maybe the quality of game i see in pictures.The word you get from people who have hunted with them also.The size of the area to be hunted and other things.Then for must maybe not all the price the hunt will cost.So as the person who quoted the hunt would you like to know that your hunt was not the top offer. Then have a chance to match an offer or sweeten your deal alittle.May not always be about the dollar price wise.Could be an extra day or animal maybe even some kind of service that you charge for and the other offer does not.May not even be to match another quote but to just get to a number or services that makes your hunt the one that gets picked.Not sure if everyone feels like this but picking an outfitter in africa is tougher then one here in the states.I would say 9 out of 10 guys from africa I would feel good about hunting with that i have talked with.There just a nicer group of people and you can see they love hunting.Here in the states I would say it would be more like 3 out of 10 i would want to hunt with.I work in a service business also and wish at times I was given more chances to match a price.As we give quotes we all leave a little meat on the bone that could be removed to get more business.I dont want to offend anyone or make someone feel like there services are not worth what they think.I am just thinking as times are alittle tougher some may not mind and like the chance to get the business.
  2. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Billc

    Apples and oranges you are talking.

    Safari Packages or a safari with pay per animal...Which to do. Both as a different as night and day...This has been hashed over on other threads and majority of safari goers do the PH plus animal fees. Basically it comes down to what do you want to go after.

    Packages offer a set of animals that are included for a set amount and you pay that weather you are able to get them or not. Not long ago a hunter went on a package lion hunt and did not see a lion to shoot. and was wondering if he would receive a refund for not getting the lion. no go on a package hunt. Many times on package hunts there are animals you want and some yo do not want. However they are part of the package. sometimes you can add an additional animals at the cost per animal rate.

    PH daily fees plus trophy animal fees you pay for what you shoot (and or wound). Pay as you go setting. You set your priority list before hand to the PH and what secondary animals you would consider and go from there.

    North America hunting is Pay up front package and you pay even if you do not see any game. Take a look at percentage on quality game tags filled. If you are talking Elk hunting, everyone wants a 6 point or better, however the number of outfitters who reach this goal is few and far between. There are only so many out there and you do not get to hunt Yellowstone park. Guides try to get customers to fill there tag with lessor trophies when they know a big bull is not around to be had. The question to US outfitters is how many clients did you have and what kind of trophies did they get. They do not like that question.
  3. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    James thats why I made it more about quotes on a hunt not a package.When I am getting quotes it is for the same animals from each person.I will normal say 7 or 10 days with my list of animals.The quotes I get can range from a few thousand dollars difference to someone adding days or other animals to make a better deal for me.I am talking if i gave both the same info would they want to know if they had to do more to try and get my business.I try to break it down by area I am looking at also.Not looking for someone up in the limpo. to match a price from the cape.So if everything I ask for is the same do they want that second chance to try and get my business.
  4. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    Africa...are there other continents to hunt?
    As a business owner I would want an opportunity to match the other bids or speak further on what I offer. Im sure the outfitters I represent would want tje opportunity as well.


    Good topic.
  5. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Tom I think most would and thanks for your reply.I hope more give there thoughts on this.
  6. sasafaris

    sasafaris AH Member

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    Tom has a point, a lot of outfitters are businessmen and would be interested in closing the deal and also staying competitive, while offering apples for apples as Billc mentioned.
    Clients want bang for their hard earned bucks and want good service.
    Outfitters need to assist by becoming client centric and service price oriented, and unless there is honest feedback, this can be difficult.
  7. Hartzview Hunting Safaris

    Hartzview Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Fanatic

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    Billc,

    As outfitters hunt different areas, different raches and different sizes of areas the prices will differ. A lot of outfitters do charge their full prices on their pricelists to give discount if they hear something back from clients. As for myself I always try to give the client the best price I possibly can personally. We also have to make a living and each and every outfitters situations are different in every operation.

    Everybody wants a second chance to close a deal but if you have to shoot yourself in the foot and loose money in what you do to make a living you wont be around to make a living anymore! I feel clients must also understand that it does cost outfitters a lot of money to maintain good qaulity hunting areas especially if they look after their areas and people well.

    A lot of times outfitters give a extra animal, a days at no charge hoping for an extra animal to be hunted just to break even on what you have given away out of your own pocket. But a lot of people take advantage of that and line up hunts with cheaper outfitters back to back after they got a great deal from the outfitter they pushed so hard to take sometimes the last meat of the bones to close the deal.

    So my question to clients are: If you were a outfitter in these situations what would you have done on a deal?


    Only my 2cents.

    Best regards,

    Jacques
  8. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Hello jacques hope the lion hunt is going well.I would always want the outfitter to make money so there can be return trips made.If a place you enjoy goes out of business then hard to get back there.I can say your quotes to me have always been fair and thats why we will coming back.I think the hard thing about africa there is so much area to see that you look around to find places to see different areas.Then it seems some areas some animals cost more and at the same time different ones will be cheaper.So i think it is very natural for a smart hunt to look around and try to get the most for his money as he sees more areas.I think it is easier after you been to a ranch and see what you get for your money to help decide if the price is good.Thanks to all who have replied so far. Billc
  9. Hartzview Hunting Safaris

    Hartzview Hunting Safaris SPONSOR AH Fanatic

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    Hey Billc,

    The lion hunt went very well and we had a extremely exciting hunt, tracked and worked strategies for 3x days untill she got fed up and made her stand. Very exciting! I understand completely what you are saying I also just would like to inform people reading this that outfitters also have expenses that has to be covered and some more than others.

    and to be honest I can't get it worked out how some outfitters can offer prices they do and still make money.... Especially when you have to pay a PH a daily rate for your client being in camp etc. But I guess every outfitter has his own way of doing business.

    Thank you,

    Jacques
  10. RickB

    RickB AH Fanatic

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    This is business. It is a very competitive one at that. I am in sales for a living and I wish I had the ability to counter offers made by others. One is not always given the ability to do so. This is where it is tuff for the seller. You want to win the bid, but not give away the farm at the same time. So if I where an outfitter I would love at least one shot at matching or beating my first offer. As the purchaser this will help you get a better deal. Which is always a good thing to me.
  11. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Jaques, I agree 100% while being competative is a big part of this industry as you correctly state, there is no reason to have a hunter have a wonderfull experince to your cost to you, with larger properties come higher running costs, this is a undisputed fact as you also know.

    Comparing apples with apples are very important, I for one give a client the opportunity to let me know what he wants from his safari and I put my best on the table right away, no wheeling and dealing I do my best for every client and try to be as transparent as possible from the word get go.

    If I can't match I simply can't.

    Very interesting thread Billc, thanks.

    My best always.
  12. James.Grage

    James.Grage GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Having friends in sales is an experience in it self. They are always trying angles to make a better deal for them selves.

    Have you and your friends tried this maneuver at your local bar or restaurant. I didn't think so.

    What our resident PH/outfitters have said rings very true. With the sales group trying to cut everything to the bone and leave nothing for the seller (ph-outfitter).

    billc - i suggest you get your group together and see what they are willing to pay. and take your cut from your friends for finding a place to go... And do not tell me you would not do that to your friends. The sales group does this all the time to there friend and acquaintances. Let me assure you and when your friends find out you will be lonely or you are pea's of a pod.

    So your friends become your pigeons to pluck. And not the PH-outfitter.

    It does not make any difference how you slice this pie it is not the same. Unless you have properties next to each other that are the same size. with the same animals. You are now talking product & packaging review.

    Have you taken the time to sit down with a PH-outfitter to see what there daily operating expenses and profit margins are. I have and i find it hard to believe that some can stay in business for what they are charging. Would you be willing to allow them the same profit margin after expenses that your company had last year? I think not? Being in sales that should be reasonable, would you not agree? Successful companies make between 10 and 30%. Your PH-outfitter will operate on less than a 10% margin. And you want to further reduce this small margin.

    Some great deals are offered on here all the time. You and your group should have snapped one of them up.
  13. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Good to hear about the lion hunt and it ended up so good.I think it is up to the outfit to decide on what they will do with there second chance.If they cant do any better then it is back on me to decide if that is good enough.I was more asking if they would like the chance.I am not looking for anything for free.I do not understand how some make money in the end either but most must make something. James no we dont go into a bar and ask for them to dobetter but that is not comparing apples to apples either.Think there is a big difference over getting 3 steaks diners over planning a trip that will be $20,000.00 plus when all done.I also dont find it to be my business on asking what profit is being made.I do not think it is that hard to get the same think from different outfitters.If I am looking into a kudu hunt in the limpo.Anyone in limpo can give a price on that.If one charges 3500.00 for 5 days and trophy fee the other 4000.00 that is the same hunt.Ok one may have 10,000 acres the other 20,000 same hunt in my eyes.Same animal same days why is that not the same.He picked his ranch that is bigger but dont get how that is not the same because they are not right next to each other.As for making something on my friends not how I work.Had alot of people when I came back ask about going and if I was going back.They ask if we do go back if they could come also and do a group hunt.If anything I am using the group to get some better prices for us all.Also will be making someone more money in that week then if it was just me and my son.I think must guys look at more then one place and feel that is there right to do when searching.My hunt with jacques at hartzview was great and will now go back because how much fun we had.In my eyes he earn my business and trust he will treat me right with pricing.I am on the search for another area also and getting prices and want to be fair as well as get the must for my money.Just as the outfitter has to justify in his mind if he is making enough I need to justify why I am going to spend more with one then the other.
  14. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    I totally get what you are talking about...makes a lot of sense.
  15. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    I think the best way to compare apples to apples. Is to look at the land you are hunting on..what is the habitat like? how many different animals are there to hunt (Are there 300 oryx to hunt or 30?), are the animals native to the area? are food and accomodations similiar and how well do you like the people your hunting with? How the hunt is carried out...creates lasting memories!

    I think most North American hunts are overrated and over hyped....some are just overpriced! Plenty of fighting about prices getting out of control for sure! What some people charge, doesn't necessary reflect what will be harvested either. There are plenty of great animals taken every year but it requires a lot of research too.
  16. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    I also think that some maybe over thinking what i am asking.I am not asking for anyone to justify what they charge or how they even came to there price.Was asking if they would simple like the chance to try and get my business after already quoting me a price.Since I am spending the money and there in the business I am looking to buy from.Kind of like say you are 1000.00 dollars more for equal hunt and all you had to do is maybe and one day to get the hunt booked with you.Yours may still cost more but that would be enough to make up the difference in my eyes.This is really a simple yes or no question if you think about.
  17. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    I think most outfitters would want a second chance to bid on your hunt request after the initial offers. It's just smart business.
  18. TOM

    TOM AH Elite

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    BillC, I totally understand and agree with you.

    James....I don't think you understood him or if you did, you read it wrong.

    I understand we don't want outfitters to be used car dealers...but if a guy is bringing a significant safari with him that would be profitable to the outfitter in numerous ways (financially, word of mouth, more hunters through operation that are happy), then I think they can decide if they want to earn the business or not.

    I, like a lot of Americans like to feel that I have gotten both good value for my money and maybe even a "deal". This "deal" doesn't have to be actual, but as long as I think I got it...it makes me feel better. That's the truth. I think a lot of outfitters miss that point.
  19. billc

    billc SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    Thanks tom I think most are taking this as me just trying to get a cheaper hunt which is only a small part of it.I want to get the most from an outfitter for my money but still may take the hunt that cost more.You said it right about that deal that really may not be the actual best deal.I dont want anyone cutting there own throat but do want the best deal i can get for what makes me happy.
  20. Jaco Strauss

    Jaco Strauss AH Elite

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    Billc As an outfitter and PH I can guarantee you this, all will try to get your buisiness everyone will take a second chance if offered, but we also have obvious margins some less than other but theu will always be there.

    As much as you want the best deal for your money (which is fair) we also want the best for what we are offering (some more than others) it is a question of sitting down and finding a middle road that works for both.

    Neither the cheapest nor the most expensive deals are ever the best! Look middle road you'll be good, Enjoy your searching.

    My very best always.

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