>35 Whelen versus. 338 Win Mag TKO values (modified)

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Interesting numbers. I don’t really have a dog in the fight either as I own and like both calibers and their cousin, the 338-06. It appears these calculations were done for muzzle velocity, it would be interesting to see the same calculations done from 100 to 500 yards at 100 yard intervals using the muzzle velocity at that distance. The higher BC for the 338 should retain velocity better so the scales should tip the other way. They are both great cartridges so one doesn’t really need to be judged “better“ than the other. Good discussion to have over a bottle of Bushmills (sorry Bob, not a rum drinker)

@DG870
Maybe a nice Jamison's instead of Bushmills
The Whelen loaded with a nice accubond still delivers over 2,000fpe at 400 yards so still plenty at that range.
I love to stir the pot, they are all good cartridges that will kill game effectively. I do like to get people to think about the old cartridges that were once regarded as short range but with modern powders and bullets turns them into a far better proposition.
This way maybe some of the older stuff can get a new lease on life. Ever rounds like the 257 Roberts, 7mm Mauser and the 30-06 have benefitted from better powders and projectiles. Take the good ol 06 for example. It came out pushing a 150gn bullet at 2,800fps, now it can be safely loaded to 3,000 plus fps with the same weight projectiles with newer powders. No one complains about that but when you start giving other old cartridges a boost people start jumping up and down saying it's not safe or that can't be done safely.
I just like to get people to think outside the box and give things a go.
Bob

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@PHOENIX PHIL
I don't know mate I don't look up loads for the 338. If you have a look online you will see Speer lists 64gn if cfe223 for almost 2,700 and another powder getting over 2,700fos with the 250 gn.
Bob

Fair enough. I took a look on Sierra's loading data website. The link below is for the .338WM and 225 gr bullet. It shows max loads for 3 powders at around 70gr and muzzle velocities above 2800fps, about 2850fps average. A fourth load listed is 78.3gr of RL-26 for 2933fps.

Unfortunately their website lists no loads for the .35 Whelen.

Loading…

reloadingdata.speer.com

 

[flatwater bill]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen One of the reasons that the Whelen with modern loads is such a surprise to many, is that old manuals had very anemic listings. I lived in and hunted the same mountains as Elmer Keith.......and his favorite load for the big 35 was 57 grains of IMR 4064 driving a 275 grain WT&C bullet. The manual that I had at the time listed 52 grains of 4064 as max, and that was with a 250 grainer. All the caution was probably warranted by the lack of standardization of the 35 Whelen, which was a wildcat at that time. People were converting Commission 88 rifles and others, so being careful was a good idea. Now, in a strong rifle, it will do better. It even outshines my favorite.........the .243...Bill

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen One of the reasons that the Whelen with modern loads is such a surprise to many, is that old manuals had very anemic listings. I lived in and hunted the same mountains as Elmer Keith.......and his favorite load for the big 35 was 57 grains of IMR 4064 driving a 275 grain WT&C bullet. The manual that I had at the time listed 52 grains of 4064 as max, and that was with a 250 grainer. All the caution was probably warranted by the lack of standardization of the 35 Whelen, which was a wildcat at that time. People were converting Commission 88 rifles and others, so being careful was a good idea. Now, in a strong rifle, it will do better. It even outshines my favorite.........the .243...Bill

@flatwater bill
An air rifle outshines a 243.
Bob

 

[Monski]

Richard Harland of Rhodesia Parks/Zimbabwe PH fame thought highly of the RDP formula in an article he wrote about the .505 Gibbs.

 

[Papa72]

If I may interject a moment….would someone kindly direct this newbie to the original post where Mr. Nelson first begat his denied love for the .243?

 

[cajunchefray]

I was just seeing if anyone on here was awake at 0118 hours when I posted it. LOL

I wondered.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

If I may interject a moment….would someone kindly direct this newbie to the original post where Mr. Nelson first begat his denied love for the .243?

@Papa72
I have despised the horrible little 243 for over 45 years.
Bob

 

[cajunchefray]

Interesting numbers. I don’t really have a dog in the fight either as I own and like both calibers and their cousin, the 338-06. It appears these calculations were done for muzzle velocity, it would be interesting to see the same calculations done from 100 to 500 yards at 100 yard intervals using the muzzle velocity at that distance. The higher BC for the 338 should retain velocity better so the scales should tip the other way. They are both great cartridges so one doesn’t really need to be judged “better“ than the other. Good discussion to have over a bottle of Bushmills (sorry Bob, not a rum drinker)

I came to the same thought after my original posts, after all the responses. Calculate RDP in 100 yard increments for the Whelen, versus the .338 Win Mag, both with optimum powders. There is the rub.
My purpose was to reference some utility, only by mathematical theory, that the .35 Whelen works, pretty good. We all know it is just theory, and Alaskan guides confidently carry .338 Win Mags, with good bullets against bears.
Absolutely no "hair" on the .338 Win Mag, especially at ranges. It just kicks too much for me.

Powder charge and recoil velocity defines my limit. I would rather shoot my .458 Win Mag.

 

[Lee M]

Well I was trying to maintain an apples to apples comparison. This information may be accurate, but it makes this an apples to oranges comparison. A couple of holes:

1. 70gr of CFE is not 20% less than the 74gr of RL-22 powder load I looked up for the .338WM. This was part of why the OP thinks it's a better round.

2. If you're getting 2900-2950fps from a 225gr projectile in the .35 Whelen, with fairly close to the same powder charge weight, there's not a chance in hell you're getting 20% less recoil with same projectile in a .338WM at 2750fps. You'll be getting MORE recoil with the .35W, not less. The OP advertised 20% less recoil in similar loads.

3. What throws the comparison off however is the load you have for your accubonds. You've apparently found a powder that works far better for the .35W, but what about the .338WM? I've compared book loads. You didn't provide a comparison to an optimized .338WM load. If you're comparing an optimized .35 Whelen load to book loads for the .338WM, that's not an accurate comparison.

This is starting to remind me of the comparisons of how you can get .300WM velocities from a .30-06. Some things just don't add up.

Phoenix Phil. Stop putting out logic, facts and science into your posts . If the Whelen fans want to use recoil from a factory load but velocity from a compressed super max load of modern powder fired out of a 28” barrel that is logical. Never mind that the .338 has 19% more powder capacity (about 13 more grains) and a bullet with higher BC and SD. None of that matters as the magic of the .35 caliber negates that. All in good fun. I love a debate and rabid fans of a particular cartridge.

Also, In case any whelen fans are interested i have a friend “Jack” who is selling some magic beans.

 

[cajunchefray]

Richard Harland of Rhodesia Parks/Zimbabwe PH fame thought highly of the RDP formula in an article he wrote about the .505 Gibbs.

An interesting fact, and if I remember correctly, Gregor Woods knew and consulted with Richard Harland, while Mr. Woods wrote for Man Magnum magazine.
Mr. Woods RDP formula is only a refinement or John Taylor's Knock Out Values, diameter vs. cross sectional area, related to momentum).

Mental gymnastics, but with some real-world experience. Africans shoot a lot of large, and Big game, like we shoot deer and hogs in the US.

.338 Win Mag or .35 Whelen? In the proper fitting rifle, that I can shoot properly, I will use either.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phoenix Phil. Stop putting out logic, facts and science into your posts . If the Whelen fans want to use recoil from a factory load but velocity from a compressed super max load of modern powder fired out of a 28” barrel that is logical. Never mind that the .338 has 19% more powder capacity (about 13 more grains) and a bullet with higher BC and SD. None of that matters as the magic of the .35 caliber negates that. All in good fun. I love a debate and rabid fans of a particular cartridge.

Also, In case any whelen fans are interested i have a friend “Jack” who is selling some magic beans.

Well what can I say, I'm the guy at the party hanging out with the dog, a party killer. Again nothing against either of the calibers, they've both proven themselves.

But I wouldn't head down the road of saying a .338-06 has what the .338 WM has either. And in reality the .35 Whelen is essentially a .35-06, the case it was designed from.

 

[flatwater bill]

I used a 338 when I lived in Australia.....on water buffalo and various culling work. It was in a Ruger 77 tang........and I loved it. Recoil was tolerable. I have owned more 35's than most younger hunters have even heard of (including 357 Max, 35 Rem, 356 Win, 358Win plus the Whelen and the AI) but didn't have access to them in Oz, so no comparison on buff. I also used a 375 HH on buff, and I could see a noticeable difference. Still, the 338 was about at my recoil limit. The two Australians that I hunted with most both hated the 243.......one said (regarding pigs) " I would rather use a point two two than a two four three"(they all talk that way).......so maybe Oz got a supply of 243's with bent barrels, and I couldn't resist a jab or two at my friend Bob......anyway, sure enjoyed your thread Cajunfry......thanks for posting.....FWB

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Phoenix Phil. Stop putting out logic, facts and science into your posts . If the Whelen fans want to use recoil from a factory load but velocity from a compressed super max load of modern powder fired out of a 28” barrel that is logical. Never mind that the .338 has 19% more powder capacity (about 13 more grains) and a bullet with higher BC and SD. None of that matters as the magic of the .35 caliber negates that. All in good fun. I love a debate and rabid fans of a particular cartridge.

Also, In case any whelen fans are interested i have a friend “Jack” who is selling some magic beans.

@Lee M
My figures are chronoed out of a 25" barrel at 12'.
Recoil foot pounds may be similar but the recoil velocity of the 338wm makes it uncomfortable for me to shoot compared to similar velocity in the Whelen.
Bob,

 

[CoElkHunter]

@Lee M
My figures are chronoed out of a 25" barrel at 12'.
Recoil foot pounds may be similar but the recoil velocity of the 338wm makes it uncomfortable for me to shoot compared to similar velocity in the Whelen.
Bob,

Bob,
You should consider a .400 Whelen just for something different to shoot and reload for. With your Savage you'd just need a .411 chambered barrel and some dies. You already have the brass. You'd start an entirely new "chapter" (novel) here on comparing the .400 Whelen to the .405 Winchester and every .416 cartridge in existence. WE would certainly enjoy your efforts, expertise and entertainment value. Despite @Flewis negativity and denial to "reach for ballistic dreams", I'm still thinking YOU might be able to get a 400gr. bullet close to 2400fps from YOUR .400 Whelen using YOUR Revisionary Ballistics brand chronograph AND the strong, swirling magnetic field you live on top of? Just something to consider? LOL
CEH

 

[colorado]

I've always used this

Taylor KO Calculator | Energy | Momentum | Bullet

 

[colorado]

500 Jeffery 570g TSX at 2300 fps

Energy: 6694
Momentum: 187
Taylor KO: 95

 

[cajunchefray]

500 Jeffery 570g TSX at 2300 fps

Energy: 6694
Momentum: 187
Taylor KO: 95

Good information. I believe Gregor Woods came up with this RDP formula as an enhancement of TKO.
TKO accounts for momentum, as in the writings of Elmer Keith.

Just for reference, .375 H&H has a TKO value of about 40.
The .500 Jeffery at TKO at 95 makes sense.

 

[wolfhunter]

my chronograph hasn' been out for many moons now I will have to get things going again will check my 330 Dakota 225Gr. swift and 35 whelen 225 and 250 gr.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

my chronograph hasn' been out for many moons now I will have to get things going again will check my 330 Dakota 225Gr. swift and 35 whelen 225 and 250 gr.

@wolfhunter
As long as your Whelen is loaded properly and safely with CFE223 you will be surprised at what it's capabilities are
Bob