1 MOA accuracy less common than you think ?

[Tex .416]

Long ago when I started shooting long distance, I shot a really small group. As I looked at the target smiling at the nice small group, my wife asked, “why is that good? It is nowhere near the bullseye.” That simple question really struck me.

Since then, my standard for hunting and my own skill assessment is the ability to hit a 1 MOA target with the cold bore shot.

The ability to accurately place the cold bore shot requires a reliable rifle, reliable scope, reliable ammo, and also a reliable driver.

Most focus way too much on the rifle and way too little on practice.

 

[intj]

I personally shoot 1000 yd BR competitions. I have multiple 1000 yd 10-shot groups in the 4-6" range. I have a couple that are under 4". That is a 30lb purpose build rifle whose only goal is to shoot small groups and high scores at 1000 yds.

I have never shot this rifle at close range because close range groups are meaningless for a long range rifle. Though I did recently fireform 100 pcs for my 17 lb Light Gun, also purpose built for 1000 yd BR. I shot a 10-shot group of .32" and a 30 shot group of .38" at 100 yds. I have yet to get this rifle under 4" at 1000 yds, and to be competitive, a Light Gun needs to to shoot 5-shot groups in the 2-3" range in good conditions. The last match, A guy shot a 1.4" 5-shot group. That's why I don't care how well a long range rifle shoots at 100 yds.

So those are THE most precise and accurate rifles at 1000 yds. Hunting rifles are an entirely different matter.

When we build a rifle for someone, and then do the load development, our standard is the rifle must shoot TWO 3-shot groups under 1/2 MOA at 650 yds. We have no issue getting any of the rifles we build meet that standard.

Now these are long range hunting rifles. Load development is done from a bench. The range is protected. Not all customers can shoot them that well, and very few of us are much better than 1-2 MOA in field conditions.

Then again, when hunting, we don't need to shoot 3" groups on animals at 600 yds. We need to be able to quickly put one or two shots into a 12" circle (for NA big game) at whatever distance we are shooting from whatever position we have available.

That is an entirely different skill set than precision target shooting, yet guys seem to blur that line all the time. Your super duper accurate long range hunting rifle will have its azz handed to it at a LRBR match, and your super duper match winning LRBR rifle sucks in the field.

And of course, African DG hunting and shooting is an entirely different skill set, and many here know that much better that I.

My primary focus for my upcoming buffalo hunt is to make one very well placed first shot, most likely form shooting sticks. I have three more months to get that down.

 

[Sideshow]

Here in the UK we’ve had fun with what is known as the

Black dot of doom

You rock up somewhere on your shooting land

Walk out 100m and place a sheet of paper with a 1” black dot on it

You get one shot to try and hit the dot

No warm ups

No sighting in

Just a cold bore shot off your sticks or bonnet of the car

Take a picture and post it on the forum

Very humbling

Ill do this tomorrow an post should be fun theres 3 of us and two rifles..

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Here in the UK we’ve had fun with what is known as the

Black dot of doom

You rock up somewhere on your shooting land

Walk out 100m and place a sheet of paper with a 1” black dot on it

You get one shot to try and hit the dot

No warm ups

No sighting in

Just a cold bore shot off your sticks or bonnet of the car

Take a picture and post it on the forum

Very humbling

Hi Bowjijohn,

What your simulating is a long shot on a croc. If your off just a hair the croc is probably going in the water. This is going to cost the hunter after airfare, daily fee, trophy fee etc $10,000. I own a .300 WM M-70 that might pull it off, maybe.

At this time we have monster, man eating croc which lays on a island made to fit. Off the slightest & he is gone. We are trying to get permission from ZIM NP to take him as a trophy. Right now we only know of one or two of our past hunters who we are pretty sure could pull it off. One was offered the croc trophy fee only, he is not interested in croc. The way he shoots his double .470 he might pull it off? Mr. C you know who you are.

Excuse me if I deviated from the thread.

Lon

 

[BigSteve57]

I personally shoot 1000 yd BR competitions. I have multiple 1000 yd 10-shot groups in the 4-6" range. I have a couple that are under 4". That is a 30lb purpose build rifle whose only goal is to shoot small groups and high scores at 1000 yds.

I have never shot this rifle at close range because close range groups are meaningless for a long range rifle. Though I did recently fireform 100 pcs for my 17 lb Light Gun, also purpose built for 1000 yd BR. I shot a 10-shot group of .32" and a 30 shot group of .38" at 100 yds. I have yet to get this rifle under 4" at 1000 yds, and to be competitive, a Light Gun needs to to shoot 5-shot groups in the 2-3" range in good conditions. The last match, A guy shot a 1.4" 5-shot group. That's why I don't care how well a long range rifle shoots at 100 yds.

So those are THE most precise and accurate rifles at 1000 yds. Hunting rifles are an entirely different matter.

When we build a rifle for someone, and then do the load development, our standard is the rifle must shoot TWO 3-shot groups under 1/2 MOA at 650 yds. We have no issue getting any of the rifles we build meet that standard.

Now these are long range hunting rifles. Load development is done from a bench. The range is protected. Not all customers can shoot them that well, and very few of us are much better than 1-2 MOA in field conditions.

Then again, when hunting, we don't need to shoot 3" groups on animals at 600 yds. We need to be able to quickly put one or two shots into a 12" circle (for NA big game) at whatever distance we are shooting from whatever position we have available.

That is an entirely different skill set than precision target shooting, yet guys seem to blur that line all the time. Your super duper accurate long range hunting rifle will have its azz handed to it at a LRBR match, and your super duper match winning LRBR rifle sucks in the field.

And of course, African DG hunting and shooting is an entirely different skill set, and many here know that much better that I.

My primary focus for my upcoming buffalo hunt is to make one very well placed first shot, most likely form shooting sticks. I have three more months to get that down.

I am curious why you chose the distance of 650 yards. There is no official target for 650 yards AFAIK; there is for 600 yards. Also, how do you subtract the effect of wind at that distance to determine that your rifle is indeed 1/2 MOA? Do you simply wait for a wind free day?

 

[Sideshow]

Hi Bowjijohn,

What your simulating is a long shot on a croc. If your off just a hair the croc is probably going in the water. This is going to cost the hunter after airfare, daily fee, trophy fee etc $10,000. I own a .300 WM M-70 that might pull it off, maybe.

At this time we have monster, man eating croc which lays on a island made to fit. Off the slightest & he is gone. We are trying to get permission from ZIM NP to take him as a trophy. Right now we only know of one or two of our past hunters who we are pretty sure could pull it off. One was offered the croc trophy fee only, he is not interested in croc. The way he shoots his double .470 he might pull it off? Mr. C you know who you are.

Excuse me if I deviated from the thread.

Lon

Lon call it as you see you see it.

 

[intj]

I am curious why you chose the distance of 650 yards. There is no official target for 650 yards AFAIK; there is for 600 yards. Also, how do you subtract the effect of wind at that distance to determine that your rifle is indeed 1/2 MOA? Do you simply wait for a wind free day?

These are hunting rifles so the exact distance doesn't really matter. The available land to shoot allows us 650 yds. There are targets set up at 300 and 500 as well. Generally, the longer the better when it comes to load dev for long range rifles, assuming you can mitigate wind effects.

We don't subtract for the wind. The group is what it is. My load developer endeavors to shoot when it isn't windy, and he is able to do that most of the time. Though as long as the wind is consistent and he can read it somewhat, he can account for it.

Today in more wind than he likes, he shot a pair of sub 3" groups for a customers rifle. Had it been less windy would it have shot better? Maybe, but so what? There is no real difference between a hunting rifle that shoots a pair of 2" groups at 650 yds vs one that shoots a pair if 3s when it comes to being able to cleanly take animals out to 1000 yds.

For tuning my 1000 yd BR rifles, that is all done at 1000 yds as early in the morning as I can. To mitigate the wind effect on groups I will often shoot four 3-shot groups round robin, all 12 rounds one right after the other. Many of those 3-shot groups are an inch or better--at least when I have the tune nailed.

 

[Sideshow]

I have put several rounds down range in my day and one of the toughest challenges I have had was at a once a month "sniper" competition at the local backwoods rifle range I shoot at. Range was 100, 200, 265, 330 and 400 yards. 2 moa and 1 MOA plates at each range. You drew numbers to see which order you would shoot those ranges. Long story short the 100 yard was the one that always got you. It was a 6" plate with a 1" hole in the center. You had to put 5 shots through the hole without touching any steel. it would humble you quickly. 4" plate at 400 yards, sure, not a big deal. 5 shots clean through that 1" hole at 100 yards would make you pull your hair out.

Yep now that is a stress test

 

[John the Electrician]

I have put several rounds down range in my day and one of the toughest challenges I have had was at a once a month "sniper" competition at the local backwoods rifle range I shoot at. Range was 100, 200, 265, 330 and 400 yards. 2 moa and 1 MOA plates at each range. You drew numbers to see which order you would shoot those ranges. Long story short the 100 yard was the one that always got you. It was a 6" plate with a 1" hole in the center. You had to put 5 shots through the hole without touching any steel. it would humble you quickly. 4" plate at 400 yards, sure, not a big deal. 5 shots clean through that 1" hole at 100 yards would make you pull your hair out.

Legitimate question here. Wouldn’t the 1” circle be a disadvantage for the person shooting the larger caliber rifle?

Specifically, wouldn’t a person shooting a .204 Ruger have an advantage over the person shooting a 30-06? The .30 cal is obviously bigger and the edges of the bullets could hit the steel even though the center points are exactly the same as a group fired from a .204.

John

 

[Tex .416]

Hi Bowjijohn,

What your simulating is a long shot on a croc. If your off just a hair the croc is probably going in the water. This is going to cost the hunter after airfare, daily fee, trophy fee etc $10,000. I own a .300 WM M-70 that might pull it off, maybe.

At this time we have monster, man eating croc which lays on a island made to fit. Off the slightest & he is gone. We are trying to get permission from ZIM NP to take him as a trophy. Right now we only know of one or two of our past hunters who we are pretty sure could pull it off. One was offered the croc trophy fee only, he is not interested in croc. The way he shoots his double .470 he might pull it off? Mr. C you know who you are.

Excuse me if I deviated from the thread.

Lon

What distance is the shot?

 

[Backyardsniper]

Legitimate question here. Wouldn’t the 1” circle be a disadvantage for the person shooting the larger caliber rifle?

Specifically, wouldn’t a person shooting a .204 Ruger have an advantage over the person shooting a 30-06? The .30 cal is obviously bigger and the edges of the bullets could hit the steel even though the center points are exactly the same as a group fired from a .204.

John

Yeah it definitely would. You would have more margin for error.

 

[bowjijohn]

Hi Bowjijohn,

What your simulating is a long shot on a croc. If your off just a hair the croc is probably going in the water. This is going to cost the hunter after airfare, daily fee, trophy fee etc $10,000. I own a .300 WM M-70 that might pull it off, maybe.

At this time we have monster, man eating croc which lays on a island made to fit. Off the slightest & he is gone. We are trying to get permission from ZIM NP to take him as a trophy. Right now we only know of one or two of our past hunters who we are pretty sure could pull it off. One was offered the croc trophy fee only, he is not interested in croc. The way he shoots his double .470 he might pull it off? Mr. C you know who you are.

Excuse me if I deviated from the thread.

Lon

Entirely doable

But you must know your equipment and your trade thoroughly

Tomorrow we will run this black dot of doom (again) with my students

Off sticks/ 100m / .22LR with a Cz 452

Much good fortune required with a .22LR - however, to get even close, requires a good grasp of the fundamentals

There in lies the lesson

 

[Hogpatrol]

Entirely doable

But you must know your equipment and your trade thoroughly
Tomorrow we will run this black dot of doom (again) with my students

Off sticks/ 100m / .22LR with a Cz 452

Much good fortune required with a .22LR - however, to get even close, requires a good grasp of the fundamentals

There in lies the lesson

A crap trigger defeats many an MOA quest.

 

[112Savage]

A member on here brought up statistical load development in a thread last year and much of it was poo-pop’d by the other members saying “well, my hunting rifle I never shoot more than x shots”. His statistics and method were sound and I came away with an entirely different feeling after reading it. I believe the member was @Alistair. I have found that if you take the mean radius of your group and multiply by 2.9, you will have the 99.7% (3SD) group size. Hornady’s group analysis tool gives x,y coordinates for each group using those x,y coordinates you can plot data over infinite sessions to reveal your true “hit probability” on a specific target size. You could also easily say that my rifle shots x.x” with a specific certainty.

All of this is meant to say, even the best shooters with the best rifles aren’t 1/2MOA all day with field rifles.

 

[Alistair]

Yes, that was me. I'm glad you found some value in my ramblings!

Regarding the topic at hand, 'MOA' is as much (if not more) a function of the shooter than the load imo.

I'd note that it is substantially harder to do a 5 round MOA group than a 3 round MOA group, and to truthfully claim 'MOA' you need to be confident that you'll do 'MOA' every time you run the exercise. That is substantially harder again.

It's my experience that most shooters who claim 'MOA' did it once during load development and haven't repeated the exercise since. After all, once you get the result you want, you stop testing...

That's not the same thing, from a statistical standpoint, or indeed from a practical standpoint.

For my own part, I have developed loads that will do a true sub-inch group at a 99.7% confidence interval (i.e a group that will do 'MOA' almost every time), but I've shot plenty of groups of those loads into a larger area than that under real world conditions. The rifle may be 'MOA' by any reasonable definition, but the rifle/shooter combo... is not.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

For our friends who reside in countries that require firearms licenses and restrict how much ammunition they can buy every year, achieving 1 MOA for five rounds could be challenging. That would be even harder where handloading is illegal! But for those of us fortunate enough to reside where gun ownership is a right, with trial and err, and lots of practice, it is very achievable.

I had my friend Steve Huff of Accuracy X build me a dual purpose target and long range hunting rifle. It's a 6.5 x 284 built on his exclusive Accuracy X action with a medium contour Palma 28" barrel. I think I should drag this to South Africa and whack baboons at long range!
If you zoom in on the target in this photos, you can see the group is .3" center to center of the widest of the 5 rounds.

While not a MOA handgun, my custom Accuracy Long Slide (6" barrel) 1911 in 10mm demonstrated pretty good accuracy at 500 yards.

.

.

 

[mark-hunter]

Many rifles today are sold with one moa accuracy guarantee.
I wonder, did anybody ever filed a complain under guarantee if the rifle did not perform accordingly?
Any such experiences?

 

[FlyGuy]

Many rifles today are sold with one moa accuracy guarantee.
I wonder, did anybody ever filed a complain under guarantee if the rifle did not perform accordingly?
Any such experiences?

A friend’s son bought a Sako 85 that wouldn’t shoot near MOA.
The rifle was sent back to the importer and the report came back that the ammo he was using is too fast.
He went to a slower factory load and it still wouldn’t shoot MOA.
The rifle was sent back again and this time, the report came back that he wasn’t using brand X or Y (which aren’t available in SA) and therefore they can’t honour the warranty.
I wasn’t popular when I suggested that someone shooting 20 rounds a year is going to struggle to shoot MOA, even with the best rifle and scope.

 

[Daisy]

All the guys saying “come to my gun club” are kind of proving the guys point. Talk is cheap. Stepping up under pressure with the camera on and shooting 1moa is tough, and my guess is most couldn’t do it under those circumstances. The video agrees with me

 

[Hogpatrol]

Those guys in the video are nowhere near the guys in my club. They'd mop the floor with them in any position. We have LEOs that come with their issued .308 Remingtons and factory ammo, shooting prone that could win that bet. Our smallest gong at 500 meters is 3". Why? The six inch one is too easy.