Educate me - original cartridge vs. Ackley Improved?

[Ku-winda]

@mauserhunter and @AZDAVE - I greatly appreciate the intel and your personal insights! Much for me to learn in this regard, but sounds like I've got some great resources to call on if needed.

 

[Bullthrower338]

I was very surprised by the accuracy I get out of my rifle while fire forming 35 Whelen brass to 375 Whelen AI. I wasn’t expecting what I saw.

 

[HuntingGold]

I just finished fireforming 97 280 Remington hand loads into 280AI brass out of a new Christensen Arms rifle. I also had 15 Nosler Trophy Grade ammo that I intermittently shot groups with.
During the first 113 shots, the 280 Remington loads consistently out performed (by group size) the factory 280AI ammo. The 280 Remington hand loads were fairly mild. Group sizes for 3 shot groups were half to three-quarter inch for the 280 Rem handloads and the Nosler 280AI would run just a touch over an inch.

 

[HuntingGold]

I apologize. I was interrupted by an urgent call and just hit the post button.

Now that fire-forming and barrel break-in are done, I'm starting to work up an actual 280AI load. At present, I'm hoping to shoot three hammer hunter loads possibly today. Once done with that, I also hope to work up a load with 160 grain Nosler Partitions. Additionally, I have 160 Sierras and 162 grain Hornady bullets to fool with.

For fun, I have six pieces of brass that were part of the original 280 Remington lot that I started with. I am loading these over and over to test how many times I can expect to load the remainder before case failure. I think I am on the 3rd or 4th loading now and have yet to need to trim. I'm sure annealing would extend the case life but that is not what this test is about.
As for point of impact, in those original loads versus the factory loads, there was a slight point of impact change but it wouldn't be enough to worry about if hunting less than 200 to 250 yards. I'm sure other rifles could be different but that's what I saw with this rifle.

 

[Ku-winda]

Thanks for sharing those observations @HuntingGold - I look forward to hearing about the rest of your results. I have a 280AI as well from HCR, but have never tried to handload for it because it is a 3/8" gun with Nosler factory Trophy Grade ammo and their 160 gr Accubonds. It's a killer too and I have great success using it on elk and Aoudad. I will be interested to see how your other bullet choices shake out.

 

[HuntingGold]

I was in error regarding my plans with the 280AI and the hammer bullets. I thought I had three, 3 shot test loads ready but in fact I was still in the ladder stage. Shooting 143 grain Hammer Hunters behind IMR 4831, it looks like I have a load between 59 and 59.5 grains. I still have some more fiddling around to do to get it where I want... but I am close.

I looked in my notes and found I had settled on a load for the old boxes of 160 grain Sierra SBTs that I had. 54.5 grains of Reloder 22 gives me about 2820 FPS and accuracy is around half an inch give or take. I'm not the best paper puncher so I'm actually quite happy with that. I loaded up what I had left of these bullets and will work on the Hornady stuff next... but who knows when.

As per usual. My loads are what works for me, use caution and work your way up. As for a second note, I have a 35 Whelen which cannot handle starting loads in some books! I have to start with loads less than the minimum and work up with that gun. Be careful with "internet loads."

 

[mauserhunter]

I was in error regarding my plans with the 280AI and the hammer bullets. I thought I had three, 3 shot test loads ready but in fact I was still in the ladder stage. Shooting 143 grain Hammer Hunters behind IMR 4831, it looks like I have a load between 59 and 59.5 grains. I still have some more fiddling around to do to get it where I want... but I am close.

I looked in my notes and found I had settled on a load for the old boxes of 160 grain Sierra SBTs that I had. 54.5 grains of Reloder 22 gives me about 2820 FPS and accuracy is around half an inch give or take. I'm not the best paper puncher so I'm actually quite happy with that. I loaded up what I had left of these bullets and will work on the Hornady stuff next... but who knows when.

As per usual. My loads are what works for me, use caution and work your way up. As for a second note, I have a 35 Whelen which cannot handle starting loads in some books! I have to start with loads less than the minimum and work up with that gun. Be careful with "internet loads."

I really need to try some hammers, new york I feel is just around the corner banning lead, there have been a few hint each year put out by the state and this year there even paying for hunters to use copper. Think it's $60 you can be reimbursed.

The hammer are the only coppers that catch my eye I like they shed there petals but the base will still exit.

 

[HuntingGold]

The Hammers are supposed to be very easy to work up and tune a load for. Based upon my limited use, I think that is true.

 

[mauserhunter]

The Hammers are supposed to be very easy to work up and tune a load for. Based upon my limited use, I think that is true.

I know they get some crazy speeds sometimes to.

 

[CBH Australia]

I know they get some crazy speeds sometimes to.

Yes they do. I often visit their forum and talk to some of those people.
I think in part it's the light for calibre bullets and the desire to test all things that has them looking to see how fast they can push them.
A lot of the night velocities that they achieve are with projectiles in the lighter end of the spectrum. That said the bullets work and the speed tests are just a by product of some friendly rivalry.

 

[mauserhunter]

Yes they do. I often visit their forum and talk to some of those people.
I think in part it's the light for calibre bullets and the desire to test all things that has them looking to see how fast they can push them.
A lot of the night velocities that they achieve are with projectiles in the lighter end of the spectrum. That said the bullets work and the speed tests are just a by product of some friendly rivalry.

Part of it I think is there bullets have low bearing surface so you can use more powder to the point you need different burn rate then normal.

 

[D.M.V]

I just love all this yesteryear shooting. The history and talent behind all of it from AI rounds to old bench rest shooters was really cool. So different from modern firearms of today. I'm glad there's still some of us left who enjoy and discuss this stuff on forums like this

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I'm not sure the specifics of my question have been covered before (I couldn't find it), but if so, apologies in advance. I know the original cartridge can be shot out of the Ackley Improved version rifle, which is in fact how most of the brass is formed (provided there are no factory offerings like .280 AI, etc.). My question is this - after the original rifle has been converted to AI, can you ever achieve superb accuracy with that original cartridge? Pick your round, but say 257 Roberts out of the converted 257AI rifle. Obviously the reason most of these were converted in the first place was to achieve better performance, so this isn't about the merits of one cartridge over the other, but rather will that rifle shoot both equally well or will the AI round now be inherently more accurate. Any insight would be appreciated.

@Ku-winda
Simple answer.
If your rifle is accurate with the standard cartridge it will be just as accurate with the improved.
If your rifle won't group to start with just changi to the AI version won't make any difference.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

No, I never noticed and accuracy difference between the two.

The only issue I had was case life. I would only get 2-3 reloads out of the brass after it had been fire formed. They would crack at the shoulder....It was probably old Remington brass, but I don't remember for sure.

@Mekaniks
If you annealed your cases you may not have had the shoulder crack. I use Remington brass in my 25 and I Hornet and anneal before forming then every 5 loads after that and haven't suffered a case loss from cracks since then.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I apologize. I was interrupted by an urgent call and just hit the post button.

Now that fire-forming and barrel break-in are done, I'm starting to work up an actual 280AI load. At present, I'm hoping to shoot three hammer hunter loads possibly today. Once done with that, I also hope to work up a load with 160 grain Nosler Partitions. Additionally, I have 160 Sierras and 162 grain Hornady bullets to fool with.

For fun, I have six pieces of brass that were part of the original 280 Remington lot that I started with. I am loading these over and over to test how many times I can expect to load the remainder before case failure. I think I am on the 3rd or 4th loading now and have yet to need to trim. I'm sure annealing would extend the case life but that is not what this test is about.
As for point of impact, in those original loads versus the factory loads, there was a slight point of impact change but it wouldn't be enough to worry about if hunting less than 200 to 250 yards. I'm sure other rifles could be different but that's what I saw with this rifle.

@HuntingGold
What you actually run a barrel in????
I have NEVER done that in my life but to each their own.
I just shoot mine until the groups open up a bit then clean and keep shooting.
The bench rest boys are anal in running in but to me it's a waste of good ammo and you are just wearing your barrel out quicker. Top that off with having to clean a shit load of times to run in is an unnecessary chore. Fire one, clean for ten shots. Fire 3 shots 10 times and clean after every 3. Then da da da you get the picture.
If it's a good barrel to start with it will be good no matter what but a shit barrel won't improve by running in and cleaning..
My 25 will group 3 shots into 0.8" at 200 yards, my K Hornet gives me a 3 shot groups at 100 years that can be covered by the base of a Hornet case and everyone knows how my Whelen shoots and not a single one has been run in.
Dang even my son's Howa 1509 in 308 is a three quarters or better at 100 and it got the same treatment.
Just the thoughts of a lazy old fart.
Bob

 

[D.M.V]

@HuntingGold
What you actually run a barrel in????
I have NEVER done that in my life but to each their own.
I just shoot mine until the groups open up a bit then clean and keep shooting.
The bench rest boys are anal in running in but to me it's a waste of good ammo and you are just wearing your barrel out quicker. Top that off with having to clean a shit load of times to run in is an unnecessary chore. Fire one, clean for ten shots. Fire 3 shots 10 times and clean after every 3. Then da da da you get the picture.
If it's a good barrel to start with it will be good no matter what but a shit barrel won't improve by running in and cleaning..
My 25 will group 3 shots into 0.8" at 200 yards, my K Hornet gives me a 3 shot groups at 100 years that can be covered by the base of a Hornet case and everyone knows how my Whelen shoots and not a single one has been run in.
Dang even my son's Howa 1509 in 308 is a three quarters or better at 100 and it got the same treatment.
Just the thoughts of a lazy old fart.
Bob

I have a cz527 in 22 hornet that shoots 5 shots in 1 ragged hole. I love the hornet cartridge

 

[Mekaniks]

@Mekaniks
If you annealed your cases you may not have had the shoulder crack. I use Remington brass in my 25 and I Hornet and anneal before forming then every 5 loads after that and haven't suffered a case loss from cracks since then.
Bob

Yes sir your are likely correct.

At the time I was a poor college kid with a cool rifle and borrowing reloading equipment from a friend…. If I had known then what I know now…