Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

After spending a fare amount of time going over all the posts my £2 worth is that for me the way the hunt was carried out was unethical IMHO. As for the value of life all life is equal its what you do with it that makes your worth on the planet. I have this a lot with anti hunters in the UK. I just ask them if they eat meat (most of them do) and that normally shuts them up. With the vegetarians I always point out that there lifestyle adds more CO2 to the global warming issue and that has been proven. When that doesn't work I give them a more in depth skull fuck version of the value of life.

As a hunter and a former soldier I place a great importance on the value of life as I'm sure we all do.

I ran across an interesting tidbit regarding collared lions in the area. In April 2014, a 7 Year old boy was killed in the Hwange area-3 Kms from the park by a "Collared" lion

.http://www.sundaynews.co.zw/boy-7-killed-by-lion/

Just because our boy Cecil was wearing a collar does not mean that he was tame.

The other thing about this that really bugs me is that the people screaming seem to think Hwange Park is the equivalent of a 20-acre roadside zoo. They can't begin to grasp that it is a Switzerland sized area with no fences to surrounding lands.

Vevew said:

Are you saying that everyone should support the moral absolutism that says "a human's life is intrinsically more valuable than an animal's life"? I'd like to hear some objective evidence on why that is true.

I can imagine a situation where I'd save an animal's life over a human's life. I remember this news. I value the lives of the last remaining Amur leopards more than I value the life of the poacher mentioned in the news; Simply because the species is so critically endangered. You are free to judge me, but that is my honest opinion until someone can prove me why the moral absolutism is a good thing.

So, do I value the life of an animal more highly than that of my fellow human beings? It all depends on the situation, the specific animal and the specific human. I don't like absolute morality.

Click to expand...

@Vevew i have to agree with you on this one. I too hold animals lives over that of poachers. I say poachers not legal hunters. I have NO problem with poachers being shot on site if found in the act of poaching. My understanding is this does happen in Africa at times and I have no problem with it. So if say you are on a hunt and come upon a person poaching a elephant, rhino, insert animal name(s) here I have no problem the poacher being shot and left to rot. Maybe some find me cruel for this but it is a serious deterrent for those who would wish to poach and if killed there isn't a worry of them continuing to poach. I can assure you that no one cares more for these animals than hunters. Hunters are absolutely just a likely to save a life as take one. True hunters also only hunt those that should be hunted. What I mean is there is a purpose to it. It ceases to be hunting when it is indiscriminate killing. I know it's a hard concept to understand but it's not about the killing. Killing is a part of it but that's not the purpose. It's much cheaper to go buy meat at the store than it is to go on safari in Africa. That being said it supports Africa through trade not aide and also provides for the less fortunate in the counties that reap the benefit of the harvest who in turn do not poach to feed their families. There is much more to it than just this but much has already been covered all ready.

norfolk shooter said:

After spending a fare amount of time going over all the posts my £2 worth is that for me the way the hunt was carried out was unethical IMHO. . . . . As a hunter and a former soldier I place a great importance on the value of life as I'm sure we all do.

Click to expand...

A CNN report from just yesterday stated that the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association said the following;
"The professional hunter and company he works for have been cooperative in the investigation" . . . "ZPHGA reiterates it will not tolerate any illegal hunting or any unethical practices by any of its members and their staff."

ZPHGA also asked everyone to respect the ongoing investigation and said it would not comment further until the inquiry is complete.

With all due respect I therefore ask how you have apparently fallen into an emotional trap of having things already wrapped up and deemed unethical before the investigation is complete?

You mention being a hunter, a former soldier and that you place a great importance on the value of life. I suppose you mentioned that for the purpose of credibility and I do respect that. Well, I too am a hunter, a military veteran and retired police detective who also realizes the value of life. However, it must be my law enforcement background that causes me to refrain from passing judgement on the situation before the investigation is complete. IMHO most of what is being passed around the internet at this early stage is likely based upon unverifiable and emotional hoopla.

Just my 2 cents. In any event, good hunting to you.

gizmo said:

@Vevew i have to agree with you on this one. I too hold animals lives over that of poachers. I say poachers not legal hunters. I have NO problem with poachers being shot on site if found in the act of poaching. My understanding is this does happen in Africa at times and I have no problem with it. So if say you are on a hunt and come upon a person poaching a elephant, rhino, insert animal name(s) here I have no problem the poacher being shot and left to rot. Maybe some find me cruel for this but it is a serious deterrent for those who would wish to poach and if killed there isn't a worry of them continuing to poach. I can assure you that no one cares more for these animals than hunters. Hunters are absolutely just a likely to save a life as take one. True hunters also only hunt those that should be hunted. What I mean is there is a purpose to it. It ceases to be hunting when it is indiscriminate killing. I know it's a hard concept to understand but it's not about the killing. Killing is a part of it but that's not the purpose. It's much cheaper to go buy meat at the store than it is to go on safari in Africa. That being said it supports Africa through trade not aide and also provides for the less fortunate in the counties that reap the benefit of the harvest who in turn do not poach to feed their families. There is much more to it than just this but much has already been covered all ready.

Click to expand...

I have no experience in Africa as either a hunter or a tourist, but from what I understand about poachers is if not for their very limited access to ammunition they would shoot most hunters in a heartbeat.

S.W. Smith said:

I have no experience in Africa as either a hunter or a tourist, but from what I understand about poachers is if not for their very limited access to ammunition they would shoot most hunters in a heartbeat.

Click to expand...

Yes sir I'd imagine that's true. Fortunately while I was hunting there we didn't run into any.

I have been getting a lot of questions on social media, ie Facebook, from friends and family members on my thoughts about the events that have unfolded. I personally based on the information presented feel this hunt was unethical and not a good representation regardless of whether the lion was on the decline or not for hunters/conservationalists. With challenges/adversity unfolds opportunities.

These stories present a great opportunity for us as sportsmen, advocates for ethical hunting, conservation, and big game hunting to bring the facts to life in way that will connect with a broader audience. The more I shared my stance on this situation as well as what we stand for as hunters the more I felt I made a difference with those people who are in the middle. We have a responsibility not to engage the trolls, but engage those who want to learn more through facts. Just my thoughts.

dt

Adrian said:

I wonder if the anti hunters in our midst are as vocal when it comes to condemning the displacement, death, poverty and homelessness of ordinary Zimbabweans or do they value the life of an animal more highly than that of their fellow human beings?

If life is so important and killing unjustifiable, why are they, anti hunters here trolling instead of fighting for human rights?

Click to expand...

He told us early on, human life is less important than animal life.

CECIL THE LION: Here’s Some Particulars You Won’t Hear On TV

Posted on July 29, 2015



by Shaun Keeny, Professional Hunter
Clash Daily Guest Contributor

Ladies and gents, this story has blown up pretty bad. But let me throw in my 2 cents. I know Theo Bronkhorst personally, he has been a Safari operator in Zimbabwe for a long time. I hunted next to his concessions for 5 years, and in that time I got to know the man pretty well.

In Zimbabwe, on private land and on government concessions, baiting is a legal method to hunt lions and leopards. Hunting at night is only legal on private land — and they had hunted private land. Antoinette, the concession where they hunted the lion, borders Hwange National Park, which shows that the boundary was a railway track.

When baiting cats, guts are used to make a drag scent that can get the lion to find your bait. Legally, the hunters could start their drag right on the border of the 2 areas. They didn’t have a permit to hunt a lion on Antoinette, but what I do know can happen is that a Safari Operator can get a quota swop, which then entitles him to hunt on another area with his existing permit. If this was done, I do not know.

Now, for Cecil to be “lured” out of the park is a bit far fetched. He had his territory that he commanded with his pride, he never left the park, and now all of a sudden he has. Isn’t it a possibility that a younger male kicked him out of his area? He was 13 years old – which for a wild lion is old! He was wounded and was followed for 40 hours? If he still had his territory he would have gone back to the park? He didn’t, and in the live pics I’ve seen from Cecil, his collar was not visible. There are always many other factors to look at.

I’m not saying the guys are squeaky clean, there is definitely a grey area in this story. But, no one has heard from the operator. I wouldn’t fault the hunter as he is guided by his PH and SO and he trusted them to make sure everything was legal. The media used words like ‘lured’, saying he was ‘beheaded’, and was murdered! These few words show that they manipulate the story. Cecil was baited like any other lion would have been, he was wounded, which is unfortunate, and the he was field dressed by trained skinners. Those are the correct terms.

I am all for fair chase and legal hunting as I, myself, am a hunting operator. I condemn illegal and unethical hunting practices, and unfortunately there are untrustworthy operators that make the safari industry look bad. But let’s wait and see what the courts find out. It may come out that everything was 100% legal and the only issue would be the fact that it was a collared male whose collar wasn’t visible.

ClashDaily.com’s Editor-In-Chief, Doug Giles, and Professional Hunter, Shaun Keeny of Shaun Keeny Safaris, agree with the following official statement from Dallas Safari Club:

DALLAS – A Zimbabwean landowner and a professional hunter are facing charges for the poaching of a collared lion outside of Hwange National Park. Their client from the U.S. could also face charges if investigators find he was a knowing accomplice in the crime. DSC abhors poaching, commends the swift enforcement efforts of Zimbabwean authorities and supports prosecution of convicted poachers to the fullest extent of the law.

DSC encourages the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to conduct additional investigations into possible violations of American wildlife laws.

Finally, DSC also supports the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe in actions against its members who violate wildlife laws. Lawful, ethical, vigilant hunters play an important role in public acceptance of sustainable hunting as a vital tool for modern wildlife conservation and management.

None of the individuals or safari companies implicated in this incident are affiliated with DSC. DSC works with government authorities and professional hunting associations, and enforces its own code of conduct, to ensure its members and convention exhibitors are in good standing.

Here is a statement from the Dentist, Dr. Palmer:

nice wart hog

@bluey ........CLASSIC!!!!!!

I say it before and I say it again, next year we will have quota of of 5 lions, I would be more than happy to receive a contribution that cover our costs connected to community developments and anti poaching, with out those affords and costs we putting down there it would not be any game at all in Zambia including lions !!!

I love the big cats, probably i respect them much more that the antis do because we living with them. So instead of screaming around STOP HUNTING my suggestion is that you start already toady to collect money and do your part of the conservation for the big cats, it will "only" cost you $65.000 per lion and and in that case you have -20 % discount because I don't have to feed you for 21 days... I still have to pay ZAWA the quota but no hunting will be done, I would be happy with a solution like that for a year or two, but then we going to have problem with over population of lions, people will get killed for sure, and if the community people get killed they will killing the lions with poison, if that's not happens we going to have problem with endemic diseases that within a couple of years can and will spread like a fire and kill all them all !

So PLEASE try to understand ones for all : The best and most human way to keep a healthy lion population in Africa is selective trophy hunting, and use that funds from hunting to save them and other game from poaching !!!

Gordon

With the recent release of the documentary film Blood Lions its going to make this even worse!!



Haha - saw this on FB

What I do know is that Trophy hunting in Africa is a necessary conservation tool. It's sad when someone for personal gain messes with the whole system and brings a necessary conservation funding tool into disrepute . Sustainable use hunting has saved far more lions than have been harvested.

Two Zimbabweans freed on bail in death of Cecil the lion

Actually wrong,one released on bail and the other appears today.

Now I ponder just how good the state's case is. Outfitter gets paid $50 000 for a supposedly illegal hunt,but state allows bail of only $1000?Also been reported that the PH himself reported the killing of the collared cat,he took the collar to the authorities. Strange act for a "guilty" man.

In social media comments, the vast majority of people just don't see the appeal in killing a lion for sport.
Trophy hunting will continue to be a very controversial topic simply because of the moral issue, even if it funds conservation. Trophy hunters really need to engage the public and explain why one would enjoy such act.

The dentist and his buddies tied a dead animal to a car as a bait, and lured the lion near them, and then they used spotlights to locate the lion, and finally the dentist shot the lion from a car with a bow. This just doesn't sound like hunting. And the dentist thought it was fine. Trophy hunters really need to explain this mindset. Where is the appeal?

baiting a predator , in hunting ,is very similar to burlying a tuna in fishing
quite often a light is used to hunt nocturnal predators , whether is lions, or foxes , or in my country dingoes....
shooting from a vehicle is not right ,in my opinion , unless you are hunting vermin , or culling , you are 100% correct this is not hunting ....
even though its legal in some countries .
trophy hunting will always be controversial....
I tried to explain in a p.m to you .......
the appeal is lots of different things that are as hard to explain as the mindset .......
get to know some hunter s, and get out there and see for your self .........
I don't think you will ever hunt and animal , but I believe , you will understand the experience .............
ENGAGE THE PUBLIC.....why don't you open a new face book account , go to some of these sites , and make open , honest and truethfull sentment , about the righteous ethics of hunting
and see what reaction you get ........
or as in my case very often , go out socially and when someone asks what you did this weekend , tell them you pack you riffle and backback ,at went deer hunting , and harvested a half grown samba hind for the freezer .
mate its 90 % of the time a standup argument , ladies or gents .
then the same people want all the deer poisoned the next week because some one was driving home from work and came around a bend somewhere as a deer was crossing the bloody road and they either ran smack bang into it or swerved to miss it a side swiped a tree .....this actually happens once a week in the district l live in ,on average on deer caused accident on the highway
you seem to be a different , more liberal minded anti hunter , or atleast anti trophy hunter ,type dude.
not many of your type ,can be spoken to about such subjects , because they cant be reasoned with .......
its only their side or opinion that of a story , or its not going to be broached ......

Vevew said:

Trophy hunters really need to explain this mindset.

Click to expand...

Why? Why dont Anti Hunters explain how they cannot protect wild life areas were there is no hunting yet game numbers are dropping or why they cannot curb poaching? We don't have to explain anything to the Anti's,they are failing all over the world so they should be the ones doing the explaining.

hunthardsafaris said:

Why? Why dont Anti Hunters explain how they cannot protect wild life areas were there is no hunting yet game numbers are dropping or why they cannot curb poaching? We don't have to explain anything to the Anti's,they are failing all over the world so they should be the ones doing the explaining.

Click to expand...

They don't have the money. it's as simple as that.
Well, most of them don't have; Leonardo DiCaprio donated $3 million to tiger conservation.

As I said, even if trophy hunting funds conservation it's still considered morally bankrupt behavior by many.

If trophy hunters can't explain it to the general public, then they should expect similar backlashes in the future. And the controversy will continue.