Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

WALKINGPREY2 said:

..I watch it turn into an adolescent boys locker room and boob talk.

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Resisting strong urge to use Jaco's "HOW TO STOP AN ARGUMENT" picture again.....

Royal27 said:

This is an interesting point, and one that @Wheels made a little earlier too. What risk are we putting ourselves at by not knowing exactly what the rules and regulations are? This is for another thtead, but probably one that should be started.

I don't know if Africa allows unethical operators anymore than any other industry of made of what are essentially small businesses? Not anymore at least... Although maybe I'm just naive. I don't even know that whistle blowers get bashed worse than elsewhere. I'm NOT saying that the bashing of those that speak out should occur either. It shouldn't. But, between fear of getting blasted and potential personal embarrassment (and I know about both as does WP) people don't always speak out when something goes wrong. There are other reasons I'm sure, but these are two big ones.

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Whistle blowers are always attacked. And I am one. The unethical operators are highly manipulative. I only wish I could tell you of the schemes I know. Even as I write this, the schemers are reading it and the ones hurt by them are as well. And I'm just a housewife out of Virginia. I too,was incredibly naive. I even warned one of the admins on this site, showing him the evidence. He too turned a blinds eye. In the end, I realize that I cannot compete with the liars. And, Praise God, that is true.

How is it that Cecil gets to be 13 years old in the wild, and apparently still maintains a pride? It has to be unusual in the extreme for wild lions to even get to that age, let alone still be able to maintain a pride. In fact, in Tanzania, any lion over the age of 6 is fair game, simply because, it seems, they are assumed not to be able to maintain a position as a pride male.

Hank2211 said:

How is it that Cecil gets to be 13 years old in the wild, and apparently still maintains a pride? It has to be unusual in the extreme for wild lions to even get to that age, let alone still be able to maintain a pride. In fact, in Tanzania, any lion over the age of 6 is fair game, simply because, it seems, they are assumed not to be able to maintain a position as a pride male.

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The report I read said he had lost his pride once but with the help of a younger male formed a coalition and regained a pride. It is unclear if the young cubs are his or the other male's.

K-man said:

The report I read said he had lost his pride once but with the help of a younger male formed a coalition and regained a pride. It is unclear if the young cubs are his or the other male's.

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In any event, he had to be near the end of his natural life.

Not a reason for poaching, if that is what's happened, but given what else is happening to animals, it's truly extraordinary the traction this story is getting in the media. Corey Knowlton's rhino didn't get this much coverage.

I respect Mr. Quale in that he has tried to make his point without name calling and insults. Thank you for that. You don't understand it and that is ok, but you talk about hunters sending the money. Where are all these people who are against hunting??? They sit at home and bitch and complain about things and that's all they do. What about the great PETA, they are just a propaganda machine. They don't give money to anything that doesn't help get them more money. They hunters have given back to not only the animals, but the local people also. You guys just can't wrap your mind around hunting saves the animals. The majority of the hunters are ethical and law abiding. If there not then the law should deal with them.
Africa is not the place it once was. If hunting goes it will be a waste land. The poachers will take over and what they don't kill, the farmers will kill the rest. They will over graze there cattle and the wild animals will starve. Hunting gives the animals worth plain and simple. That may not be a pill you want to swallow, but if you don't accept that fact then you are dooming them. When they are all gone then what blame the hunters still!!! I'm sure they will, because the Antis don't have any solutions, they just point at every possible issue and say they are the problem.

Hank2211 said:

How is it that Cecil gets to be 13 years old in the wild, and apparently still maintains a pride? It has to be unusual in the extreme for wild lions to even get to that age, let alone still be able to maintain a pride. In fact, in Tanzania, any lion over the age of 6 is fair game, simply because, it seems, they are assumed not to be able to maintain a position as a pride male.

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Have had the same thoughts Hank. It certainly looks like Cecil is in decline. Less hair on top. Almost a mowhawk now. Certainly less hair infront of the ears. Almost doesn't look like the same lion.

WALKINGPREY2 said:

I too,was incredibly naive. I even warned one of the admins on this site, showing him the evidence. He too turned a blinds eye. In the end, I realize that I cannot compete with the liars. And, Praise God, that is true.

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WP2, regarding the part of your last post that I quoted, I'm a bit confused what you're saying there. Can you please explain?

WALKINGPREY2 said:

There are clearly not enough women on this site, Jane. Help me out. Otherwise....I watch it turn into an adolescent boys locker room and boob talk.

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Amen WP2, but the ladies we do have around here are the best! So glad you are willing to put up with us adolescents
I know without a doubt that you must have been referring to @Jaco Strauss We can't take him anywhere!

Walkingpray, Nothing wrong with little "boob talk" sometimes, .... I don't understand why it's such big thing with this cat, they highlighting it on CNN this morning with a stupid vegan that was interviewed. I love to tell them that there is too much lions in Zambia, during a 2 weeks game count in south Luangwa we observed 66 male lions in the age between 7-10 year old !!! That area is less than 0,3 % of the country, the photo is one of them !

Dane, I truly don't think a single hunter/outfitter supports illegal hunting. I just want to show you some other benefits of hunting in Africa. Where I am based in Mozambique, we do all the anti poaching, the govt doesn't even have vehicles, but I don't want to go into that whole argument. I want to show you what we do for families, we support and promote 3 different soccer teams, now remember there isn't electricity in most of the area, so no TV, by having these soccer teams, weekends become major soccer days, a FAMILY TIME, you won't believe how this helps to curbe drinking and family abuse. Did your anti hunting lobby ever help?

IdaRam said:

I know without a doubt that you must have been referring to @Jaco Strauss We can't take him anywhere!

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Oh brother......you just don't know how true that is.

gordon-kruger said:

View attachment 45867 Walkingpray, Nothing wrong with little "boob talk" sometimes, .... I don't understand why it's such big thing with this cat, they highlighting it on CNN this morning with a stupid vegan that was interviewed. I love to tell them that there is too much lions in Zambia, during a 2 weeks game count in south Luangwa we observed 66 male lions in the age between 7-10 year old !!! That area is less than 0,3 % of the country, the photo is one of them !

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Awesome old boy there!

Wheels said:

Have had the same thoughts Hank. It certainly looks like Cecil is in decline. Less hair on top. Almost a mowhawk now. Certainly less hair infront of the ears. Almost doesn't look like the same lion.

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The article I read with the above picture stated this wasn't the PH or lion that is the centre of the furore.
This is another lion from another hunt that the media have managed to find and publish of the hunter. They also managed to find an him with an elk and a leopard.

Couple of things I wanted to say about this thread. First of all I've personally worked in a slaughterhouse, for a summer, when I was in college and it really was a factory of death. If some of these anti hunting types are disturbed at what they see in hunting videos they would be traumatized for life or develop PTSD if they visited a slaughterhouse for a day, where the meat they eat everyday comes from. Secondly none of the people I worked with, found the job to be "fun" or enjoyed the killing.

Secondly lots of people/hunters go to far off destinations and pay big bucks to hunt yet I've yet to hear of someone paying to go to a slaughterhouse for sport just to kill animals. So your comment about hunters enjoying killing and hunting primarily for that reason is kinda moot.

Third, why do people hunt, personally I think it appeals to a person's primeval urges just like we have a taste for meat. The two are very closely intertwined. It is important to note that until very recently (less than 50 or so years ago) hunting far from being seen as a taboo or evil was actually a gentleman's sport. Furthermore lots/majority of people hunted to supplement their diets. So for all of human history up until 50 or so years ago hunting was seen as perfectly acceptable. Hunters= bad bloodthirsty people is a very very recent phenomenon. A lot more people back then lived on farms and they where in tune with the natural cycle and knew their food came from. They slaughtered their own animals for food and did not get their meat in styrofoam packets from their local grocery store. Nowadays the overwhelming majority of people eat meat and love it but they are so far removed from nature that they exist in a rather willing ignorance as to where it came from. People want the burger but they don't want to slit the cow's throat to get it, they'd rather outsource that. Ignorance is bliss in today's society.

killing, killing, killing, why is it that people think the only point of the hunt is killing? hunting is a package deal and only one part of it involves death.

Ill tell you a little bit about myself as a hunter. I don't need a trophy, a picture, meat, or even to always a kill to enjoy hunting! for me its the experience and the effort I put into the hunt that makes the whole thing worth while. im sure you anti's are thinking "if you don't need to kill it to enjoy it then why bother killing it?". the answer is that while killing isn't the only purpose for my hunt it still is a big part of the experience. while I can still enjoy a hunt without a kill, it feels like I only got 2/3 of the experience I was going for.

- I enjoy spending time in nature away from cities and crowds.
- I enjoy watching many different animals in their natural environments.
- I enjoy stalking my prey or preparing an ambush.
- I enjoy the moments leading up to the shot.
- I enjoy firing the rifle and seeing the animal show sign that the hit was good.
- I even enjoy the time spent giving the animal space while waiting for it to completely expire. (or putting a final shot in, depending on the game)
- prepping the dead critter for the butcher is sorta a pain in the rear but its gotta be done. (I love being able to pay someone to do it in Africa!)
- lastly and easily the most important to me is that I enjoy the memories of the entire experience. (except maybe the prep work for the butcher )

if all of the above makes me a monster then I guess im comfortable with being a monster. if me killing the animal can be proven to be a severe detriment to the species then I will find different prey, but hard facts are needed. ill be damned if I let someone else decide that I cant enjoy one of my favorite hobbies any more because they FEEL its morally wrong.

-matt

spot on matt...
we all prefer our meat in its original pakaging

I went to bed last night thinking what is going on in the world. Why do people who does not understand hunters go out to condemn them who does hunt.

I fell a sleep and woke up this morning doing what I do every morning. First swich on the kettle for a cup of coffee. Then I took my usual morning shower, got dressed and sat on my bed and said a short prayer, asking THE LORD to show me what is in store for me for the day.
I then oppened my Bible to the book of Romans 14.
I read the entire part, but what struck me was the following

Romans 14:2-3 , “One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.”

I then closed my Bible and said my prayer for the day. After that I fixed myself a cup of coffee and thought about what I have read.

I could clearly hear a voice saying, "Tell this to everyone to hear, although only a few will listen "

Guys please remember. I am only the messanger, so don't shoot the messanger if you don't like the message.

lbgsafaris said:

I went to bed last night thinking what is going on in the world. Why do people who does not understand hunters go out to condemn them who does hunt.

I fell a sleep and woke up this morning doing what I do every morning. First swich on the kettle for a cup of coffee. Then I took my usual morning shower, got dressed and sat on my bed and said a short prayer, asking THE LORD to show me what is in store for me for the day.
I then oppened my Bible to the book of Romans 14.
I read the entire part, but what struck me was the following

Romans 14:2-3 , “One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.”

I then closed my Bible and said my prayer for the day. After that I fixed myself a cup of coffee and thought about what I have read.

I could clearly hear a voice saying, "Tell this to everyone to hear, although only a few will listen "

Guys please remember. I am only the messanger, so don't shoot the messanger if you don't like the message.

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Spot on!