Zimbabwe Elephant thoughts needed please

[rookhawk]

Holy smokes 15500... That is a very obtainable hunt! Would tuskless be less? I've dreamt about hunting elephant, but the whole import to the US crap is off putting, but tuskless... It takes all the import crap out of the equation

Ah tuskless. The most dangerous hunt on the planet.

 

[putter97127]

Ah tuskless. The most dangerous hunt on the planet.

Yeah, that's the other side of the equation... I'm kind of a big pussy...

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Holy smokes 15500... That is a very obtainable hunt! Would tuskless be less? I've dreamt about hunting elephant, but the whole import to the US crap is off putting, but tuskless... It takes all the import crap out of the equation

It is possible, but not probable we have very few tuskless in our area.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Ah tuskless. The most dangerous hunt on the planet.

Not to hijack the thread, so feel free to respond via PM if you want, but is the tuskless hunt really that dangerous? I have one booked for june, they told me that when I booked it, because that was what I wanted, excitement and also I didn't think I could afford a bull. Later came up with cash for a bull but they talked me into staying with tuskless since it is my first trip and for the price difference I could shoot a tuskless, buffalo, and hippo on land for same price as a bull. I thought they were just over selling the adrenaline factor perhaps because they thought that was what I wanted to hear. Either way I am really looking forward to it!

 

[rookhawk]

Not to hijack the thread, so feel free to respond via PM if you want, but is the tuskless hunt really that dangerous? I have one booked for june, they told me that when I booked it, because that was what I wanted, excitement and also I didn't think I could afford a bull. Later came up with cash for a bull but they talked me into staying with tuskless since it is my first trip and for the price difference I could shoot a tuskless, buffalo, and hippo on land for same price as a bull. I thought they were just over selling the adrenaline factor perhaps because they thought that was what I wanted to hear. Either way I am really looking forward to it!

It depends on the situation and the density of the cover. But yeah, it can be very dangerous.

If a bull is shot in a group of bulls, the bulls scatter. Generally away from the noise. Generally bulls are in smaller groups or just a lead and his askari. Manageable. Bulls are also peaceable unless in musth.

But then we go to cows. They generally are in big groups. They are often surrounding you on several sides because the larger groups browse around. You generally don’t know where they all are. Then they usually have calves. They are pissy. The odds of your scent getting to them is a lot higher because there are more of them. When they panic from the scent, the run off in various directions and they may be nearly circling you and now running to you to get to the matriarch. Bad luck or a bad decision can end up with a forced standoff and a lot of dead elephants. Add to that, you’re messing with big groups and “culling” from them. That’s not good. A game parks professional cull would never go that way, they would kill them all to manage numbers and thus none are left alive to remember what occurred. But with a cow hunt, you’re removing one cow from a group that will remember that situation and become more hostile in the future. I’ve never hunted cow elephant nor do I ever intend to, but I’ve been engulfed and surrounded by them on many occasions and things were very edgy. Compare that to being out in the bush with three bulls feeding and we just sat on a rock at 10 yards and admired them, they saw us, they kept doing their thing, we enjoyed an experience for ten minutes. (They saw us, but didn’t wind us, so they were chill)

Now you want to do tuskless. You take all that piss and vinegar of a cow elephant and the danger of more of them, plus the chance there are calves around, and you’ve selected for the most obnoxious angry-at-the-world elephant of them all, the elephant that doesn’t have tusks to feed or forage and has spent its entire life harassing and abusing the other elephants to steal their food or shove them off the tree they just used their tusk to bring down. Yeah, they are extra moody.

Then you add the probability factor. You’re going into the lions den to mess with cow elephants which I covered above how tricky and unnerving that can be. But you’re not doing it just once. You’re doing it over, and over, and over again trying to find a tuskless in a herd. What are the odds and distribution of tuskless cows? Depends on the area. I believe the Zambezi valley has higher ratios but its still maybe 10%? (Don’t quote me on that, don’t have the actual stats) Lots of screwing around with angry women looking for a needle in a haystack.

Last is the tuskless sales pitch. You’re paying a little trophy fee because the operator is earning their profit on the daily rate. If you don’t get one, what did you save, $4000? What was it going to cost the operator for the government permit? $4000? So they really don’t have a profit motive if you get one or not, it adds little to zero net profit to the overall business. What did you really save by doing this other than increasing the chances of a dangerous and unsuccessful hunt potentially?

Exportable elephant bull trophy fees are going for $8000-$13,000 in Many areas. Entire exportable bull hunts are going for $15,500 trophy/daily all-in on this forum in fact. High quality animals with big ivory are being offered all-in for $20k-$25k.

Anything elephant related is a sensitive topic amongst all people. I’m sure many hunters will have much different opinions than mine.

This isn’t some national park. These animals are poached, harassed, F’d with, and people looking for tuskless have intruded on them dozens of times entering and withdrawing, sometimes clumsily. It’s just not a great situation when you piss off 20 cows in THEIR living room.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Wall that's it! You've sold me on it. That's definitely my game. It's a lot like showing up at 3 AM with 3 other dudes then lining up outside a fellows house and then bursting in the door, hopefully, unexpectedly and then trying to convince them to peacefully surrender, or you will have to unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, kill every body in the house.
Yep, I have played a game similar to that before, and I liked it. Tuskless elephant sound like they are for me

It depends on the situation and the density of the cover. But yeah, it can be very dangerous.

If a bull is shot in a group of bulls, the bulls scatter. Generally away from the noise. Generally bulls are in smaller groups or just a lead and his askari. Manageable. Bulls are also peaceable unless in musth.

But then we go to cows. They generally are in big groups. They are often surrounding you on several sides because the larger groups browse around. You generally don’t know where they all are. Then they usually have calves. They are pissy. The odds of your scent getting to them is a lot higher because there are more of them. When they panic from the scent, the run off in various directions and they may be nearly circling you and now running to you to get to the matriarch. Bad luck or a bad decision can end up with a forced standoff and a lot of dead elephants. Add to that, you’re messing with big groups and “culling” from them. That’s not good. A game parks professional cull would never go that way, they would kill them all to manage numbers and thus none are left alive to remember what occurred. But with a cow hunt, you’re removing one cow from a group that will remember that situation and become more hostile in the future. I’ve never hunted cow elephant nor do I ever intend to, but I’ve been engulfed and surrounded by them on many occasions and things were very edgy. Compare that to being out in the bush with three bulls feeding and we just sat on a rock at 10 yards and admired them, they saw us, they kept doing their thing, we enjoyed an experience for ten minutes. (They saw us, but didn’t wind us, so they were chill)

Now you want to do tuskless. You take all that piss and vinegar of a cow elephant and the danger of more of them, plus the chance there are calves around, and you’ve selected for the most obnoxious angry-at-the-world elephant of them all, the elephant that doesn’t have tusks to feed or forage and has spent its entire life harassing and abusing the other elephants to steal their food or shove them off the tree they just used their tusk to bring down. Yeah, they are extra moody.

Then you add the probability factor. You’re going into the lions den to mess with cow elephants which I covered above how tricky and unnerving that can be. But you’re not doing it just once. You’re doing it over, and over, and over again trying to find a tuskless in a herd. What are the odds and distribution of tuskless cows? Depends on the area. I believe the Zambezi valley has higher ratios but its still maybe 10%? (Don’t quote me on that, don’t have the actual stats) Lots of screwing around with angry women looking for a needle in a haystack.

Last is the tuskless sales pitch. You’re paying a little trophy fee because the operator is earning their profit on the daily rate. If you don’t get one, what did you save, $4000? What was it going to cost the operator for the government permit? $4000? So they really don’t have a profit motive if you get one or not, it adds little to zero net profit to the overall business. What did you really save by doing this other than increasing the chances of a dangerous and unsuccessful hunt potentially?

Exportable elephant bull trophy fees are going for $8000-$13,000 in Many areas. Entire exportable bull hunts are going for $15,500 trophy/daily all-in on this forum in fact. High quality animals with big ivory are being offered all-in for $20k-$25k.

Anything elephant related is a sensitive topic amongst all people. I’m sure many hunters will have much different opinions than mine.

This isn’t some national park. These animals are poached, harassed, F’d with, and people looking for tuskless have intruded on them dozens of times entering and withdrawing, sometimes clumsily. It’s just not a great situation when you piss off 20 cows in THEIR living room.

 

[rookhawk]

Wall that's it! You've sold me on it. That's definitely my game. It's a lot like showing up at 3 AM with 3 other dudes then lining up outside a fellows house and then bursting in the door, hopefully, unexpectedly and then trying to convince them to peacefully surrender, or you will have to unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, kill every body in the house.
Yep, I have played a game similar to that before, and I liked it. Tuskless elephant sound like they are for me

Maybe they are. Just a clarification. If something goes wrong and its a massive, disasterous shoot out, you’re not doing the shooting. The PH has to decide in a split second which one, how many, all at 5 paces or less. He might lose his license if the scouts and trackers testimony at the inquiry suggests there was any other recourse. You won’t be taking glory photos of it, you’ll be paying ten grand for the first flight out of dodge before you’re held pending something like that being sorted out.

It can be dangerous and not in the thrilling way. If you want danger without glory just go to downtown Detroit at 3am.

In any case, have a very good PH and do exactly what he says. Do it an area of high tuskless density, and hopefully light cover.

For me, I’d leave managing population densities of cows and tuskless to professionals on culls. I’m wholly unqualified for that. But if it’s legal and beneficial to the species as a whole, have your kicks. I’d rather avoid the cows domain altogether and just sit on a rock at ten yards admiring a couple bulls feeding peacefully.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Maybe they are. Just a clarification. If something goes wrong and its a massive, disasterous shoot out, you’re not doing the shooting. The PH has to decide in a split second which one, how many, all at 5 paces or less. He might lose his license if the scouts and trackers testimony at the inquiry suggests there was any other recourse. You won’t be taking glory photos of it, you’ll be paying ten grand for the first flight out of dodge before you’re held pending something like that being sorted out.

It can be dangerous and not in the thrilling way. If you want danger without glory just go to downtown Detroit at 3am.

In any case, have a very good PH and do exactly what he says. Do it an area of high tuskless density, and hopefully light cover.

For me, I’d leave managing population densities of cows and tuskless to professionals on culls. I’m wholly unqualified for that. But if it’s legal and beneficial to the species as a whole, have your kicks. I’d rather avoid the cows domain altogether and just sit on a rock at ten yards admiring a couple bulls feeding peacefully.

Memphis might provide a more target rich environment. Detroit just helps you build points with Delta.

@Backyardsniper played the same game and have been playing with the idea of a Tuskless hunt since a bull hunt seemed a little beyond my budget until this thread. I’ve got a PH who’s willing to do a Tuskless bow hunt and has done several before that I’m strongly considering.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Memphis might provide a more target rich environment. Detroit just helps you build points with Delta.

@Backyardsniper played the same game and have been playing with the idea of a Tuskless hunt since a bull hunt seemed a little beyond my budget until this thread. I’ve got a PH who’s willing to do a Tuskless bow hunt and has done several before that I’m strongly considering.

Now that would be some wild stuff right there. bringing a bow to an elephant fight. Ha ha. I was just messaging with a buddy of mine about this hunt. He is an instructor at the robin sage portion of the Q course and he will be retiring before long. I'm trying to convince him to go do a safari with me as a retirement present to himself. We would have a ball. Ha ha.

 

[Green Chile]

I've done tuskless in Zim (with a lever action .50 caliber) and it's pretty much exactly what Rookhawk described. It was the hunt of a lifetime and I think I will try to repeat it. Every time I see a tuskless hunt advertised I think about signing on. It was much different than stalking bull elephant as we did a fair amount of that for practice. Hunting the cow herds was entirely different and the trackers acted a LOT differently around the cows.

For anyone interested in reading my story, I wrote it up for African Hunter magazine in 2007.

 

[TOBY458]

Having just returned from hunting tuskless, I can tell you that you do have to get very close to determine if there's a tuskless in the group. Then you have to determine if she has a dependent calf with her. All while paying attention to the other Elephant in the group. It's a heck of an adrenaline rush!
We had three guys in our group of five that hunted tuskless, and we all got one. Mine was rather uneventful, with a brain shot, and a quick shout down of the other Elephant in the group. A couple insurance shots to the brain just to be sure, and it was all over. However, one of the guys in our group got charged on his hunt. He and the PH ended up having to shoot her several times to get her down. His initial shot was a heart lung shot with a 375.
So it really all depends on the exact situation you get into, and your initial shot placement that dictates the amount of action you'll encounter. I want to do it again already!

 

[Green Chile]

You bring up a good point...for me it's all about the brain shot. That's the goal for me and if you feel similar please discuss that with the PH. It really has an effect on how you hunt them. Shoulder shots in decent terrain are relatively easy. Brain shots require some real chess moves but you know immediately if you are successful or not with a brain shot on elephant. There is no tracking afterwards. It's extremely dramatic and satisfying.

No promises though on how the herd will react. They probably won't run away and they could easily come looking for you. As was said earlier in the thread, pissy elephants are memorable. Nothing sounds like that...nothing. We couldn't recover mine until the next day. They tore that place apart.

 

[Tanks]

...

Now you want to do tuskless. You take all that piss and vinegar of a cow elephant and the danger of more of them, plus the chance there are calves around, and you’ve selected for the most obnoxious angry-at-the-world elephant of them all, the elephant that doesn’t have tusks to feed or forage and has spent its entire life harassing and abusing the other elephants to steal their food or shove them off the tree they just used their tusk to bring down. Yeah, they are extra moody.

Then you add the probability factor. You’re going into the lions den to mess with cow elephants which I covered above how tricky and unnerving that can be. But you’re not doing it just once. You’re doing it over, and over, and over again trying to find a tuskless in a herd. What are the odds and distribution of tuskless cows? Depends on the area. I believe the Zambezi valley has higher ratios but its still maybe 10%? (Don’t quote me on that, don’t have the actual stats) Lots of screwing around with angry women looking for a needle in a haystack.

...

A few things to emphasize.

First, on a cow hunt you definitely want to take a brain shot. If there are others around, but you are in the thick jess they will not see it when they look around and they will go on their way.

If you go for a heart shot then the cow will take off crying bloody murder after being shot and in the middle of a herd you will have a mess.

At Nyakasanga I saw several tuskless cows and one tuskless bull during my 14 days there (CMS concession), the guy after me was hunting two tuskless and got them both. BTW, skin etc. are exportable and I have quite a few panels waiting for my permits to come through. If you go that route I'd recommend Colette's to do the tanning. It is cheaper and reduces the weight by 30% or so as well.

If I get lucky enough to get my 60+ lbs tusker at Kazuma next October Colette's will be taking care of everything as well.

 

[Green Chile]

Tanks, who was your CMS PH? I hunted with Alan and know Buzz and Myles well.

 

[Tanks]

Tanks, who was your CMS PH? I hunted with Alan and know Buzz and Myles well.

Dean Kendall this year and next year. Keith Wall last year.