What's the biggest round you can shoot well?

njc110381

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Having started the process of buying a Lott and starting to research it a bit, I've read some quite interesting comments from people in other posts. It seems there are various opinions on this round, from "get on and shoot it" to "never again"! I guess I'm wondering on average how many people can't cope with it and how many think it's fine?

In my experience of shooting I've never fired a round this big. What I have learned though is I think it's recoil velocity that bothers me. Fast, snappy rounds like the .270 and .300 Win Mag offend me a little, big slow rounds like shotgun slugs, hot .45-70 and .375H&H I find absolutely fine. I'm not worried about it as such, but it is making me wonder whether I should work up a load and start with a light load or whether I should just load it up, grab it firmly by the throat and get on with it?! It's not a fast round so I'm expecting the recoil to be a good hard thump, but nothing offensive?

I guess what I'm asking is for those of you who have used one, what did you think of it? Fine, tolerable or don't own it any more?!
 
It depends.

What you consider "shooting well" actually is.
 
I find my Lott very manageable and have no problem hitting a 6” plate with every shot off sticks at 100, normally in or touching the 2” bull I paint on my plates. However, it’s weight is appropriate for caliber with a very well designed stock. The stock fits me well, has a large butt area, and is fitted with a 1” Pachmyr decelerate pad.

I have picked up Lott’s that I would not shoot based on poor design to the criteria above.
 
Hello njc110381,

I have a .458 Lott based on the CZ 550 magnum action, with a 23” barrel and a few other Gunsmith’d differences.
Even though it weighs 11 pounds empty, I find the full pressure factory loaded ammunition for it (500 gr at about 2300 -2350 fps) a bit much for continuous shooting.
Quite a bit of practice is wise if we are serious about hunting with - name your caliber.
So, I load it down to about 2100 fps.

This takes just enough out of the recoil that I can shoot it more often without undue bruising.
My hand loads duplicate original ballistics of the 450 NE Flanged 3.25”.
The .450 NE has been and still is considered one of the best choices in a double rifle for elephant in thick cover.
So, I expect that I’ve nothing to worry about, in the event an angry elephant sneaks over from Africa and tries to smash up my berry patch, here in Alaska.

The Lott in mine and other friend’s rifles is surprisingly accurate.
With my slightly reduced recoil loading, I can run the bolt from my shoulder, for the full 5 rounds fairly quickly, and get the hits at close range.
However from sticks, clear out to about 200 paces, this cartridge is not difficult to hit a dinner plate sized steel gong with, using only the express sight.

It’s not likely that I’ll ever hunt with it outside of Africa, (if I even get the chance for using it there).
But, if I was to hunt with it here where I live (moose, grizzly, bison), I think I’d try some 400 grain Swift A-Frame bullets, on the range, all the way out to 300 yards.
For these I believe I’d either put a peep sight on it or a low powered scope.
If they shot well, they seem like they’d be a good choice here, in case I ended up having to fire across a swamp farther than usual, etc.

Well anyway, I believe you will find the Lott to have fairly powerful recoil but, not unbearable.
If you do find it unbearable, load it down with some lighter bullets, (350 grain Hornady comes to mind), at reduced velocity and then work your way up to heavier bullets, at higher speeds, a little at a time.

Cheers,
Paul.
 
.375 Ruger is the biggest I have ever shot, and I have to admit I was pretty nervous I pulled the trigger for the first time.
You definitely know you have shot it, but I’d rather shoot 40 full power rounds through it than 40 rounds through a .40 cal Hi-Point carbine I used to own.

Nothing special about the rifle, it was a used Alaskan version I bought for $750 off the EE on AR15.com. It had been fired 3 times, came with 17 rounds of Hornady ammunition.
It was one of the first models, without the threaded muzzle.
I love that rifle.
 
It depends. What you consider "shooting well" actually is.
+1... Minute of angle or "minute of buff"?

A few thoughts...

Shooting well
Weatherby were the first to see the light re. modern barrels are virtually ALL capable of 1 MOA. They first (that I know) offered the 1" accuracy at 100 yd warranty. Virtually all makers do it now. Therefore, to simplify things, shooting well means shooting to the capability of the rifle, therefore shooting 1 MOA.
Field reality is that shooting 2 MOA is generally plenty enough for most hunting at reasonable range (<200 yd), and shooting 6 MOA (hitting the 6" plate at 100 yd) is still OK for buff...
However, shooting responsibly a .30 (Win, Wby, RUM, Nosler, etc.) or a 33 (Win, Wby, RUM, Lapua, Nosler, etc.) at 300 or 400 yd requires sticking to more or less 1 MOA.

Fear
If you are afraid of the gun, whether it be a short range stopper or a long range killer, you will inevitable flinch and yank the trigger. Some even instinctively close their eyes. At this point, accuracy is not measured in inches at 100 yd but in feet at 50 yd. If you fear the gun, stop right there and learn to not fear it (see below).

Pain I
Unless you hold the rifle wrong (see technique below), or you had shoulder surgery, recoil from even the most powerful rifles is not really painful. If your physical condition prevents it, you may not be able to shoot high recoil rifles. Period. If you are in standard physical condition, there is a right way and many wrong ways to hold a high recoil rifle. This one never really hurt me or scared me.

Pain II
The scope kiss is one of the most painful (and potentially dangerous) shooting experiences. And you do not need a big gun to get one. Many sheep or goat hunters have been surprised by a scoped .270 when shooting 60 degrees uphill when the scope is positioned so close to the forehead... Happened to me, it was painful, and ever since the scope has been MY fear.
On really big guns (say .40 and up) you want no scope; a long eye relief scope ('scout' scope); a barrel mounted red dot; or a standard scope mounted as faaaaar forward as mechanically possible. A longer stock is also a grand classic. Never mind seeing a scope ghost ring when you shoot, it does not affect accuracy.

Equipment
Yeah, there is a real difference between a steel butt plate and a 1" decelerator or Kick EEz pad. 'nough said. As to stock design, some folks see a major difference between the traditional stock (say Win 70 for example) and the high comb stock (say Weatherby for example). Interestingly some say the Wby style recoils less, and some say it recoils more. I personally can't see a difference and I suspect that it comes done to shooting technique (see below).

The height of folly is the somewhat recent trend for ultra light rifles, in big calibers. For example, I consider pure stupidity to build a 8 lbs .416 or .458. My own Lott on a Mauser 66 is 8 lbs 13 oz and it is way too light. It gives me 79 ft/lbs of free recoil. Pouring 2 lbs of lead into the stock and bringing the gun to 12 lbs. would lower the recoil to 56 ft/lbs. But it would ruin the balance. I cling to it because of sentimental value, but it is ridiculous... Anything under 11 lbs is in my ind too light for big recoil. Truth be told, I also cling to the Lott because I rarely shoot it anymore. My big hammer is a 11 lbs 6 oz Krieghoff double .470 that is infinitely more pleasant to shoot...

Technique
Assuming you do not fear the gun and do not flinch and/or yank the trigger, the real issue of recoil is to control the gun enough during recoil so that it still points at the target by the time the bullet leaves the muzzle. This is why high recoil calibers and faster recoil calibers are harder to shoot, they generate so much recoil that they have already moved back, upward and sideways significantly before the bullet is out of the pipe. Controlling the gun so that it recoils straight and predictably (i.e. always the same way) is the key to accuracy.
  1. Have the rifle deep in the shoulder pocket, close against your chest, not on the ball of the shoulder. Under recoil the rifle will roll off the shoulder ball into the shoulder pocket. Not only is it painful but inevitably the barrel will point sideways by the time the bullet leaves it. This accounts for a lot of misses.
  2. Have the rifle high in the shoulder pocket. This will prevent the rifle from sliding up under recoil and slap your face. Not only is it painful but inevitably the barrel will point even more upward by the time the bullet leaves it. This accounts for a lot of misses. Different stock designs may fit your body differently. In my mind, this is how recoil from different stock designs may be felt as "more" or "less" recoil. Of course, this is always the same recoil, but you likely have the stock in a different place in your shoulder pocket.
  3. Press the gun back into your shoulder pocket as hard as you comfortably can. Under recoil the rifle wants to jump back. If you give it a quarter or half inch free start it will not push you back but wack you back after gaining considerable speed. Ouch!
Learning & experience
Anyone can grab a .22 or an AR and shoot with horrible technique without much pain (nor accuracy ;-) but one must LEARN to shoot high recoil rifles and experience is critical to make the learning an unconscious muscle memory. First order of business with a big gun, whether a 'stopper' or a 'killer' is: purchase and shoot 200 rounds of ammo.

In conclusion...

Assuming that fear and pain have been taken out of the equation by proper equipment, learning good technique, and enough experience, it is amazing what most people can do.

True 1 to 2 MOA (2" groups at 100 yd) are common with folks who know how to shoot their (take your pick: .404, .416, .425, .458, etc.) low power scoped rifle from the sticks, or resting on a convenient tree stump etc.

As to myself, I commonly shoot 1 MOA from my .257 Wby and I commonly shoot 1 MOA from my .340 Wby IF (big IF) I remember that I am shooting the .340 Wby, i.e. if I place the stock carefully deep and high in my shoulder pocket, close to my chest, and if I pull it rearward really tight. Doing so, I consistently and predictably ring the 12" plate (i.e. the vital area on an elk, moose, wildebeest, hartebeest, kudu, etc.) to 400 yd from a field rest virtually every time. However, if I forget that I am shooting the .340 and I hold it as if it were the .257, I can miss the same 12" plate at 100 yd with the gun jumping all over the place under recoil before the bullet leaves the tube...

As to the .458, even at 8 lbs 13 oz it never scared or hurt me since I never had a scope on it, and when the dang front bead started to get invisible despite being increased in diameter twice, I put a red dot on the barrel on it and I shoot it with no negative consequence ... other than a full box of full power ammo will give me a head heck, thereby demonstrating that recoil and blast create a small concussion...
 
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Just out of curiosity, if you have never fired a round this big, why are you going for it?
If you can shoot a .375 without issue, why dive into the unknown and spend time and money on the application and acquisition of a rifle and calibre you aren't entirely sure will be suitable to you?
Recoil is a different thing to different people.
I've seen big blokes flinch to a .300 WinMag yet small guys shoot a .416 like it was a .22.
It will be hard to get an accurate perception of how the recoil will affect you without actually shooting a few rounds.
 
Crikey, that's a bit to take in. I'm going to read it all again after I've posted this, apologies if I miss anything. Thanks though, some of these replies obviously took quite a bit of time and thought to type out and I really appreciate it.

Loading down sounds good. Not as much as I was thinking I would maybe, but it's good to know a couple of hundred fps makes a difference. I'll try working up to that quite quickly. If it helps me get a better grouping and allows me to shoot more before getting tired and sore, all the better!

The rifle I have gone for is a CZ550 American Aramid composite. It weighs 9.4lbs. Not heavy, not light. Apparently the stock is good for absorbing some of the recoil... We'll see! Hopefully it has a nice recoil pad but if not I can fit one. It's not scoped but I do have a 1-5x20 Leupold VX3 that I'm considering putting on there, if I do it will be on quick detach mounts and probably not used that much.

I like to think I can shoot fairly well. MOA or just over isn't difficult from sticks, I can do that all day long with my 6.5x55 or 7STW. I've never feared a rifle, but I know I'll need to respect this one. I've been scoped before and I don't want to experience it again! I do a pretty physical job that can beat me around a bit at times - throwing and catching sand bags, getting the occasional whack in the chest from a fence post that snaps when I pull on it etc. I'm not delicate and I'm reasonably fit. No sprinter but I can swing a sledge hammer all day and push barrows of concrete up hills!

Me and my shooting friends have a good method for catching a flinch - let your friend load the rifle for you whilst you look the other way. It will either go bang or click on an empty chamber, highlighting any issue and allowing it to be worked on. During that time more ammo can be put down the gun before repeating the process until it is sorted. I plan on shooting a lot more than 200 rounds, although they will be home loaded rather than bought to keep the cost sensible. I will most likely need to refine my technique a bit, but I will only know for sure once I've fired the gun at something and know A. Whether I hit what I was aiming at and B. If it hurt!

I'm quite excited about getting the rifle and trying it out. I just wish I had some idea of what to expect!
 
Why am I going for it? I suppose the answer to that is why not? I know I can shoot a .375H&H well, I've done it hundreds of times. I've owned a lot of calibres in the small centrefire group and a couple of medium bores. .17 Hornet, .22 Hornet, .223, .22-250, .243, 6.5x55, 7x57R, 7-08, 7STW, 8x60R, .338 Win Mag, .375H&H, .45-70... I like guns and I like learning what the various calibres can do. If I don't like it I'll sell it and buy something else! .375H&H is a bit small for buffalo. Well it isn't, but it kind of is. It sounds like one shot kills are far more common with a .40+ and the way I see it I owe it to the animal to put it down as quickly as I'm able.
 
I believe that it depends on where you are in your firearms journey.
When I was 12 a Winchester '94 in 30-30 was all I could ever imagine shooting well.
Fast forward a few years and it was a bolt action 30-06, then when I was 16 a 300WM.
Currently I've only shot up to a 375H&H but none of us know what the future holds.
I hope to continue my firearms journey and be shooting a larger caliber down the road.
Hope you all do as well.
 
Crikey, that's a bit to take in. I'm going to read it all again after I've posted this, apologies if I miss anything. Thanks though, some of these replies obviously took quite a bit of time and thought to type out and I really appreciate it.

Loading down sounds good. Not as much as I was thinking I would maybe, but it's good to know a couple of hundred fps makes a difference. I'll try working up to that quite quickly. If it helps me get a better grouping and allows me to shoot more before getting tired and sore, all the better!

The rifle I have gone for is a CZ550 American Aramid composite. It weighs 9.4lbs. Not heavy, not light. Apparently the stock is good for absorbing some of the recoil... We'll see! Hopefully it has a nice recoil pad but if not I can fit one. It's not scoped but I do have a 1-5x20 Leupold VX3 that I'm considering putting on there, if I do it will be on quick detach mounts and probably not used that much.

I like to think I can shoot fairly well. MOA or just over isn't difficult from sticks, I can do that all day long with my 6.5x55 or 7STW. I've never feared a rifle, but I know I'll need to respect this one. I've been scoped before and I don't want to experience it again! I do a pretty physical job that can beat me around a bit at times - throwing and catching sand bags, getting the occasional whack in the chest from a fence post that snaps when I pull on it etc. I'm not delicate and I'm reasonably fit. No sprinter but I can swing a sledge hammer all day and push barrows of concrete up hills!

Me and my shooting friends have a good method for catching a flinch - let your friend load the rifle for you whilst you look the other way. It will either go bang or click on an empty chamber, highlighting any issue and allowing it to be worked on. During that time more ammo can be put down the gun before repeating the process until it is sorted. I plan on shooting a lot more than 200 rounds, although they will be home loaded rather than bought to keep the cost sensible. I will most likely need to refine my technique a bit, but I will only know for sure once I've fired the gun at something and know A. Whether I hit what I was aiming at and B. If it hurt!

I'm quite excited about getting the rifle and trying it out. I just wish I had some idea of what to expect!
A whole lot of good points in your post njc110381, but first and foremost: welcome to the africahunting.com community. I am happy to welcome you on behalf of the inmates, and I hope that you will be able to find some mild value in our collective delirium :)

Your rifle and scope selections are dang near perfect. The action will likely be a little rough off the factory but no worries, this is easy to fix. See other posts in this blog or send me a personal message (PM) for some pointers if you want. I will gladly help.

As to what to expect:

Here is the baseline data:
  • A 8 1/2 lbs 7 mm STW shooting 160 gr at 3,185 fps produces 27.9 ft/lbs of free recoil at 14.6 fps.
  • A 10 lbs .458 Lott shooting 500 gr at 2,300 fps produces 70.4 ft/lbs of free recoil at 21.3 fps.
In so many words, your scoped .458 Lott will recoil 2.5 times more than your 7 mm STW. It will not kill you, but you will for sure notice it ;-) hence the advice in previous post about recoil management techniques etc.

Note that said recoil management techniques are not designed to make recoil acceptable, it is or it is not to you, but are designed to allow you to continue to group 1 to 1.5 MOA with over twice as much recoil.

For comparison, the .375 H&H is logically in between:
  • A 9 lbs .375 H&H Mag. shooting 300 gr at 2,530 fps produces 37.3 ft/lbs of free recoil at 16.3 fps.
Note that the recoil increase is not linear but exponential as you climb the caliber ladder, and that the .458 Lott essentially recoils almost twice as much as the .375 H&H. Does that get your attention?

Note also that the slow push vs. fast recoil is a myth, as, factually, recoil speeds increases along with recoil force. I speculate that more generous stock dimensions and less drop in high recoil rifle stocks may be (?) at the origin of this myth...

Here are the recoil baseline rules of thumb:
  • increasing rifle weight by 10% decreases recoil by 10%
  • decreasing bullet weight by 10% decreases recoils by 20%
  • decreasing bullet velocity by 10% decreases recoils by 20%
It is easy to see why most big bore start at 9 1/2 lbs without scope (i.e. 10 1/2 lbs with scope) and why so many folks who buys a 500 gr / 2,300 ft/lbs capable .458 Lott, end up shooting most of the time mild 400 gr / 2,050 fps .458 Win loads (in either Win or Lott brass, by the way, because the Lott chamber fires perfectly well the shorter Win cartridge).

Three more advises if you can bear:
  1. Start shooting without the scope. The CZ has among the best factory iron sights in the market anyway.
  2. Start shooting light and mild Win Mag loads: 400 gr at 2050 fps will produce 'only' 41.7 ft/lbs of free recoil in your unscoped CZ.
  3. Fire a box of 3" 12 gauge duck shells (1-5/8 oz at 1,280 fps) at a ground target. They produce about 52 ft/lbs of free recoil from a 7 1/2 lbs shotgun. The light Win Mag load will feel pretty innocuous after that, and the Lott full house loads will be less of a shock.
I hope this helps :)
 
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My experience with larger caliber rifles is that the average shooters accuracy, is directly related to the rifles trigger weight, and felt recoil.
I am a average shot. Attached is a photo of using a .375 H&H with 300 grain barnes X bullets (and a 2 lb Jewell trigger) on Geese in the Caprivi, shot at 250-300 yards off of shooting sticks. Please note the suppressor!!
Happy New Year!

2016-09-20 004.JPG
 
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I believe that it depends on where you are in your firearms journey.
When I was 12 a Winchester '94 in 30-30 was all I could ever imagine shooting well.
Fast forward a few years and it was a bolt action 30-06, then when I was 16 a 300WM.
Currently I've only shot up to a 375H&H but none of us know what the future holds.
I hope to continue my firearms journey and be shooting a larger caliber down the road.
Hope you all do as well.
My crystal balls shows a .500 Jeffery intersecting BeeMaa's path LOL
 
My crystal balls shows a .500 Jeffery intersecting BeeMaa's path LOL
Thanks for the vote of confidence but my narrow little backside isn't quite ready for "half-incher".
Although my PH has a 500 (I can't remember if it's a Gibbs, Jeffery or NE) that he wants me to take a poke with.
We will see...and the wife is sure to have a video...for more LOL's.
 
Well is kind of subjective, but I will consider it MOA. I have a 300 RUM in a 7lbs rifle, without a break, it is all I can handle. I'm not sure who the numbers shake out, but I can shoot my 375 H&H significantly more in a single range session. I believe the heaviest recoiling rifle I have shot is a 416 Weatherby Mag, that was far beyond what I could ever get used to shooting.
 
Thanks for the vote of confidence but my narrow little backside isn't quite ready for "half-incher".
Although my PH has a 500 (I can't remember if it's a Gibbs, Jeffery or NE) that he wants me to take a poke with.
We will see...and the wife is sure to have a video...for more LOL's.
In a bolt action I would definitely go for the .505 Gibbs myself, especially since the CZ action can digest it.
The Jeff has a short case with rebated rim that was designed to somehow make it fit in the standard Mauser K98 action, which it did, but with so many feeding issues that most English makers ended up building their rifles with a single column 2 shot magazine.
Why CZ (and/or others) would even bother with it is beyond me. The Gibbs is by far a better design in my opinion, not to mention that it operates at lower pressure and extracts much better (that rebated rim again!).
 
Well is kind of subjective, but I will consider it MOA. I have a 300 RUM in a 7lbs rifle, without a break, it is all I can handle. I'm not sure who the numbers shake out, but I can shoot my 375 H&H significantly more in a single range session. I believe the heaviest recoiling rifle I have shot is a 416 Weatherby Mag, that was far beyond what I could ever get used to shooting.
An 8 1/2 lbs scoped .300 Ultra Mag. shooting 180 gr. at 3,230 fps produces 32.8 ft/lbs of free recoil at 15.8 fps. If yours is truly 7 lbs when you shoot it, it kicks back in the 37 ft/lbs range.

By the numbers, this makes it similar to a 9 lbs .375 H&H Mag. shooting 300 gr at 2,530 fps and producing 37.3 ft/lbs of free recoil at 16.3 fps. However, if your .375 is scoped, it is likely in the 10 1/2 lbs range therefore it kicks back in the 32 ft/lbs range, 15% less than a 7 lbs .300 RUM.

As to the .416 Wby, it is a beast producing 83 ft/lbs of recoil at 22.8 fps in a 10 1/4 lbs rifle shooting 400 gr at 2,700 fps.

PS 1: I also note the consistent (therefore possibly statistically significant ?) perception from most shooters that the math does not tell the entire story, especially when it comes to hyper-velocity calibers like the RUM, Wby, etc. These are generally perceived to kick back out of proportion with what the math says. Hmmm...???

PS 2: I am told that real men shoot 500 gr at 2,600 fps out of their 11 1/4 lb .460 Wby for an even 100 ft/lbs of free recoil, but this is just a cheap shot at the real pros: they shoot .577 NE 750 gr slugs at 2,050 fps out of their 12 lbs doubles with 127 ft/lbs of free recoil, and the real brave ones shoot .600 NE 900 gr slugs at 1,950 fps out of their 12 lbs doubles with 154 ft/lbs of free recoil... More men than I am :)
 
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An 8 1/2 lbs scoped .300 Ultra Mag. shooting 180 gr. at 3,230 fps produces 32.8 ft/lbs of free recoil at 15.8 fps. If yours is truly 7 lbs when you shoot it, it kicks back in the 37 ft/lbs range.

By the numbers, this makes it similar to a 9 lbs .375 H&H Mag. shooting 300 gr at 2,530 fps and producing 37.3 ft/lbs of free recoil at 16.3 fps. However, if your .375 is scoped, it is likely in the 10 1/2 lbs range therefore it kicks back in the 32 ft/lbs range, 15% less than a 7 lbs .300 RUM.

As to the .416 Wby, it is a beast producing 83 ft/lbs of recoil at 22.8 fps in a 10 1/4 lbs rifle shooting 400 gr at 2,700 fps.

PS 1: I also note the consistent (therefore possibly statistically significant ?) perception from most shooters that the math does not tell the entire story, especially when it comes to hyper-velocity calibers like the RUM, Wby, etc. These are generally perceived to kick back out of proportion with what the math says. Hmmm...???

PS 2: I am told that real men shoot 500 gr at 2,600 fps out of their 11 1/4 lb .460 Wby for an even 100 ft/lbs of free recoil, but this is just a cheap shot at the real pros: they shoot .577 NE 750 gr slugs at 2,050 fps out of their 12 lbs doubles with 127 ft/lbs of free recoil, and the real brave ones shoot .600 NE 900 gr slugs at 1,950 fps out of their 12 lbs doubles with 154 ft/lbs of free recoil... More men than I am :)

You caused me to question myself on the RUM, so I just weighted it, it is 7lbs 2oz without a scope. So probably a little over 8lbs total when it is set up. It still knocks the spit out of you without a brake.
 
Njc,

What is it that you plan on killing with a weapon that is so powerful that makes you ask people the question of what piece of shoulder artillary they can accurately handle so you can attempt to narrow down your choices?
 

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