What makes a double go OUT of regulation???

[Deleted member 13924]

Hi Folks,

Here is a question for the double rifle experts...

What are the possible causes for a double rifle to go OUT of regulation?

I have a 1969 Franz Sodia 9,3x74R O/U, which is not shooting as I would like it to.
I am in the process of developing a load to get the two barrels to shoot to the same point of impact (or close enough) but you can read up and follow that in one of my other threads if you wish. My point is Franz Sodia was a highly respected Master gunsmith in his day, and I cant believe that any self respecting Master gunsmith would have sold this rifle to any customer shooting the way it currently does.
I believe that when it was new it would have been regulated beautifully.

So what has changed with this rifle in the last 51 years?
There are no visible dents or dings on the rifle, and each barrel can produce a lovely tight group, they are just not close to each other like they should be.

What are your thoughts?

HB.

 

[TTundra]

My initial thoughts lead to to asking if you are shooting the same projectile and load that is was originally designed to shoot? Have you matched the velocity of the regulation load and have an identical profile bullet and weight with your loads?

 

[IvW]

Velocity
Hand loads
Wrong bullet/weight
Wrong powder/primer
Loose barrel rib
With/without scope
Original regulated bullet and load?
Off face
Resting barrels on bench rest or sticks
Operator
Damaged barrel crown
Regulation distance
Etc. etc.

Too many variables

 

[CAustin]

Velocity
Hand loads
Wrong bullet/weight
Wrong powder/primer
Loose barrel rib
With/without scope
Original regulated bullet and load?
Off face
Resting barrels on bench rest or sticks
Operator
Damaged barrel crown
Regulation distance
Etc. etc.

Too many variables

Yep what he said! I never argue with @IvW

 

[bruce moulds]

another thing might be throat wear.
even with original regulating ammo this can be an issue.
as throats wear, velocities can and do change.
if you shoot 1 barrel more than the other the problem is worse.
of course this takes a fair few shots.
bruce.

 

[Foxi]

all of what LvW says is true.
I'm in the same situation as you.
I have tried a lot.
Double rifles are divas who change their lives by soldering.
The hit picture can change even if you don't shoot it for years.
The voltage of the barells is always present.
The bullets/ammunition from that time no longer exist.
We have a gunsmith who adjusts the barrels with a wedge (€ 1.500.-)
I would prefer soldering.
Give your experienced !!! gunsmith 40 rounds and € 1000.- (our prices in Germany f.e. ) and it will be good.

 

[bruce moulds]

should 2 barrels produce different recoil impulses, a stock with cast can produce sideways dispersion between the two.
your target no 4 in the other thread starts to look more promising.
however, 30 yds results will look a lot worse at 100.
bruce.

 

[Deleted member 13924]

all of what LvW says is true.
I'm in the same situation as you.
I have tried a lot.
Double rifles are divas who change their lives by soldering.
The hit picture can change even if you don't shoot it for years.
The voltage of the barells is always present.
The bullets/ammunition from that time no longer exist.
We have a gunsmith who adjusts the barrels with a wedge (€ 1.500.-)
I would prefer soldering.
Give your experienced !!! gunsmith 40 rounds and € 1000.- (our prices in Germany f.e. ) and it will be good.

Hi Foxi,
I'm not sure we have any gunsmiths with "suitable experiance" in regularing doubles here in South Africa.
Perhaps Ralph Bardenhorst, who builds doubles, but he wont work on any guns other then his own.
I would certainly consider having it done, if there was someone locally who I thought was competent and able to do it.
Then I would get them to regulate my rifle with that 286gr expanding monolithic I was testing that gave two shots touching from each barrel... What a pleasure that would be
HB.

 

[IvW]

Hi Foxi,
I'm not sure we have any gunsmiths with "suitable experiance" in regularing doubles here in South Africa.
Perhaps Ralph Bardenhorst, who builds doubles, but he wont work on any guns other then his own.
I would certainly consider having it done, if there was someone locally who I thought was competent and able to do it.
Then I would get them to regulate my rifle with that 286gr expanding monolithic I was testing that gave two shots touching from each barrel... What a p
leasure that would be
HB.

Wont regulate with a heavier load if the twist is for a lighter load to start with

 

[austrianhunter]

My point is Franz Sodia was a highly respected Master gunsmith in his day, and I cant believe that any self respecting Master gunsmith would have sold this rifle to any customer shooting the way it currently does.
I believe that when it was new it would have been regulated beautifully.

Franz himself was a master gunsmith - but Franz Sodia guns sell really cheap (or most of them), cause most of them are MASS PRODUCED guns and many of them still around never reached the hands of the master himself. These are mostly well made guns, but only a few of them were produced by the master.

Many of the old 9,3x74R guns from this period of time disperse both barrels a fair bit (not only height, but also horizontally). Most oft them are regulated for the old RWS TMR with 286grs or the Hirtenberger with a 270grs Sierra Bullet - but some were soldered for the KS or DK Bullets.

I think the chance is high, that your rifle ist no "treasure" of some kind - instead just a mostly well made working gun from yesteryear.

If it was long used in Africa as a working gun and not cared of - the dust lodged in the barrels and a shot every now and then may have wore the barrel down. a slight change in inside diameter and a slightly belled muzzle will alter it so far, that it is unserviceable without a new regulation of the barrelbundle. the same for long not cleaned guns - if the are rusty and dirty as hell and you have to clean them "mechanically" to get rid of all the crud inside - the same problem occurs.

just my 2 cts

 

[RayAtkinson]

The biggest problem I see today is the average gunny is a bolt action person trying t make a double shoot to POI by handloading, the chance of that is nilly willy..

You need to know what load the rifle was regulated with and the maker can tell you that and that's probably the only load that will print center the sights at 50 yards, if its an older gun try Woodliegh bullets and you might get lucky as they are Kynoch copies as a rule...

Probably best to determine what load you want to use and send a few boxes of bullets to a double rifle gunsmith and have your gun re-regulated to that load..

Trying different loads is guess work and it would be a miracle if you got lucky.

 

[HWL]

Hi Folks,

Here is a question for the double rifle experts...

What are the possible causes for a double rifle to go OUT of regulation?

I have a 1969 Franz Sodia 9,3x74R O/U, which is not shooting as I would like it to.
I am in the process of developing a load to get the two barrels to shoot to the same point of impact (or close enough) but you can read up and follow that in one of my other threads if you wish. My point is Franz Sodia was a highly respected Master gunsmith in his day, and I cant believe that any self respecting Master gunsmith would have sold this rifle to any customer shooting the way it currently does.
I believe that when it was new it would have been regulated beautifully.

So what has changed with this rifle in the last 51 years?
There are no visible dents or dings on the rifle, and each barrel can produce a lovely tight group, they are just not close to each other like they should be.

What are your thoughts?

HB.

I am not a gunsmith, I just pay them.... and a lot.

I am a proud owner of four doubles and a drilling with two rifled barrels, that HAD the same problem.

It does not make sense to speculate what are the reasons, because this will not fix the problem.

First of all, you have a barrel problem, not an ammunition problem.

So you will not fix it with reloading or burning hundreds of $ or thousends of SAR with factory ammunition.

You can try this,..... but it only will burn the money you need for regulation.

I believe in a muzzle regulation device, made by my gunsmith.

He takes 1500 € and the problem is gone for ever.

Once made, you can shoot every ammunition you want, just regulate the barrels with a screwdriver and an allen wrench.

I come to South Africa once a year.

Have prepaired the paper work for export/import, I can bring it to my gunsmith in Germany

https://www.fortner-waffen.de/jagd-...tellungen/jagd-doppelbuechsenbergstutzen.html

and back to RSA.

You will never look back.


HWL

 

[RayAtkinson]

Same old story on about every post concerning doubles..folks don't really understand the double rifle, regulation, and sight in?? In most cases they purchased a double and dont' know the regulation load, or even understand it..Its time consuming but do your homework, read up an study the double gun..In most cases, probably 90% on this forum the gun needs t be re-regulated to a known load..and use that load only, no handloading other than that regulation load, all this other stuff only applies t bolt, lever , autos and pumps etc..

 

[Red Leg]

Same old story on about every post concerning doubles..folks don't really understand the double rifle, regulation, and sight in?? In most cases they purchased a double and dont' know the regulation load, or even understand it..Its time consuming but do your homework, read up an study the double gun..In most cases, probably 90% on this forum the gun needs t be re-regulated to a known load..and use that load only, no handloading other than that regulation load, all this other stuff only applies t bolt, lever , autos and pumps etc..

Ray, I own and shoot doubles a lot so maybe I am not one of your "folks" who don't understand. So , let me say that I am not sure what you are saying.

An older double in good original condition almost certainly has a load that will fire as regulated in that gun. It goes without saying that it is extremely unlikely anyone will ever find that particular load sitting on a dealer's shelf. It is also extremely rare that the original regulating load can be found from the manufacturer of a rifle since very few manufacturers retain those records for long even should the original company still be in business. For instance, Franz Sodia has been reorganized several times since the OP's rifle was built. But if the rifle is in good original condition, that load likely can usually be replicated. I have a pre-WWI 9.3x74R guild gun built by some now unknown master craftsman. In relatively short order, Lance Hendershot and I discovered a load that shoots a 2.5" LxR/LxR composite group at 100 meters (yes - 100 - not 50 or 70). In fact, the older the rifle - again assuming good original condition - the more likely one is to decipher that load. Back in the golden age, far more time went into regulation than now. A relatively modern double will be lucky to leave the gunmaker with a 50-yard sub 3.5 inch test target.

That said - some defy discovery. In fact, I have a nearly brand new VC OU 9.3 x74R that shoots patterns even with the listed regulation load. It will soon go to JJ Perodeau with a load that shoots MOA from each barrel to be regulated. Thus far I can find no one in the States that knows about @HWL's regulating wedge. And as @IvW notes, a host of things can have happened to a rifle that are not immediately visible to an inexperienced eye - any of which could make finding a load that replicates regulation impossible.

 

[RayAtkinson]

I don't know what you are referring too, you are not one of the most folks apparently, and I have no disagreement with your post..I was trying to make the newbie to doubles life a bunch easier as they don't understand the processes of making a bad double shoot good. and actually re-regulating is the secret to that even with the experts imo..If I have a double scattering shots off it goes, if its a bit wide , high or low, maybe I'll get lucky and move them together with a grain or two up and down or sideways...I notice many using 3 shot groups, that's not good, use 4 shot groups with a double, and approach the problem as two separate rifles needing to shoot together with the goal of groups the size of the worst barrel..

 

[Red Leg]

I don't know what you are referring too, you are not one of the most folks apparently, and I have no disagreement with your post..I was trying to make the newbie to doubles life a bunch easier as they don't understand the processes of making a bad double shoot good. and actually re-regulating is the secret to that even with the experts imo..If I have a double scattering shots off it goes, if its a bit wide , high or low, maybe I'll get lucky and move them together with a grain or two up and down or sideways...I notice many using 3 shot groups, that's not good, use 4 shot groups with a double, and approach the problem as two separate rifles needing to shoot together with the goal of groups the size of the worst barrel..

Let's chalk it up to talking past each other. Always enjoy and appreciate your contributions.

 

[One Day...]

A look at the barrel flats may also be interesting. Many older doubles were actually stamped with the load for which they were regulated.