What is a trophy and what falls short?

[TokkieM]

To all the good folks here on AH I personally need some clarification on what everyone considers to be a trophy animal. I would like to know what you as the Hunter expects as minimum standards trophies should measure up to,pun intended.
Would you consider SCI minimum measurements as the yard stick? Or say 90% of SCI measurements?

The reasons for asking is that I have seen a few "trophy" animals on social media lately that I would consider cull animals.
Often you also see a post or hear a client say they would like to take another so and so trophy as the one they took the last time was not that great.
I know the experianced clients who have a few Safaris below their belt will have a pretty good idea of what they want on their wall.
I am not asking about chasing the tape hunters,just what the avarage Hunter expects when he hunts Africa.
Somehow I feel that clients are being short changed if I see a trophy I simply know I would not take with a client.
I also do not include the scrum cap Buff and scarface lion in this group as they have a diffrent type of charm to a diffrent type of Hunter.
I would like if some of the PH's and Outfitters would also chip in and give us a indication of what they set as their own standard.

If this type of post has come up before then I apologise and ask one of the moderators to remove it.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I would start with an older solid representative of the species. After that the tape measurements are gravy. Example if I take a 53" Kudu with broomed off ivory tips, teeth worn down, maybe even a few predator scars, that's a trophy. If that same Kudu went 57", well it's an even nicer trophy.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I see those pictures all the time to.
I say nothing. They are happy. Good enough for me.

I suspect, if they care at all, the hunter may see some other trophies that are larger and may question the trophy quality he was afforded. That may effect the return business!

To answer your question:

On my first hunt I asked the PH a simple question by email and then in the field before I pulled the trigger: "Is it SCI GOLD?"
I had no other basis for a decision at the time. I had never seen an Eland on the hoof before. I was truly clueless.
The PH was right in his estimation and I am still happy with that trophy to this day.

Now, Rowland is driving my hunting bus.

 

[TokkieM]

Brickburn nothing wrong with asking for what you want and getting that delivered. Good on you and the PH.

By my way of thinking a client gets shortchanged if he gets to shoot trophies that should make a cull list. PH's make mistakes and if one of 6 animals does not quite make it then it's not a problem to me,it's when things are the other way around that bothers me.
Mr. Ward is not a bus driver,he is a slave driver

I would start with an older solid representative of the species. After that the tape measurements are gravy. Example if I take a 53" Kudu with broomed off ivory tips, teeth worn down, maybe even a few predator scars, that's a trophy. If that same Kudu went 57", well it's an even nicer trophy.

Phil if it was a 42" EC Kudu would you feel the same way? Or if it was a 49"complete Limpopo bull as discribed by you would you still feel the PH delivered up to your expectations?

I don't mean to be rude or impolite,it's just a 53" bull any client should be happy with and it's pretty close to RW.

 

[ack]

All depends on the hunt and what you went through to take the animal...As I get older the "hunt"is more important than the size of animal..I would prefer that I'm not directed to shoot a cull unless a cull hunt..

 

[Timt]

I will have to agree with Phoenix Phil on this one. An old weathered representative of the species is on the absolute top of my hitlist. Measurements are an pleasing bonus for me.

 

[Waterguy631]

It is more about the hunt for me I'd rather shoot a smaller trophy that I had to work for then a big one I stepped out of the truck and shot now if I have to work for the big one more power to it. The ones I have on the wall that mean the most to me are not the biggest their the ones that represent some accomplishment be it a long stalk a solo adventure or who I was with I have a pronghorn that most wouldn't even think about mounting but it was my first hunt out of state with my 2 boy's they spotted it and planned the stalk I let them guide me to it . They already had bigger ones and were just out with me to enjoy our time.

 

[Nyati]

I will have to agree with Phoenix Phil on this one. An old weathered representative of the species is on the absolute top of my hitlist. Measurements are an pleasing bonus for me.

+1

 

[BRICKBURN]

.......
Mr. Ward is not a bus driver,he is a slave driver
................

I'm sure that is what the poor PH's think when I show up.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Brickburn nothing wrong with asking for what you want and getting that delivered. Good on you and the PH.

By my way of thinking a client gets shortchanged if he gets to shoot trophies that should make a cull list. PH's make mistakes and if one of 6 animals does not quite make it then it's not a problem to me,it's when things are the other way around that bothers me.
Mr. Ward is not a bus driver,he is a slave driver



Phil if it was a 42" EC Kudu would you feel the same way? Or if it was a 49"complete Limpopo bull as discribed by you would you still feel the PH delivered up to your expectations?

I don't mean to be rude or impolite,it's just a 53" bull any client should be happy with and it's pretty close to RW.

Tough question to respond to on the EC Kudu, not convinced they're a different species. Not trying to stir the pot with that comment as I don't have the expertise to say whether they are or not.

My first and only Kudu, hopefully not last, came out of Limpopo, 50". We hunted Kudu hard and that was the best opportunity presented, he's a trophy in my mind.

Two years ago when hunting with HartzView, I wanted an eland. And old blue bull that had seen his years and was coming out of his prime. And that is exactly what I got. His horns had big bases with worn down tips, lion scars all over his rear end. As I say, exactly what I wanted and thus a trophy to me. Later in the hunt my son killed a very nice bull. Not as old, longer horns but the bases not quite as heavy. It was a well earned trophy for him. It would score better than mine I'm sure. We don't know as we never taped any of the animals from that hunt.

Both are solid representatives and thus both are trophies.

I have no issues with someone wanting "bigger and better" however they define that for themselves. I can tell you I won't shoot another Kudu that isn't somewhere in the 53-54" range or better. But I would never look down my nose at someone who shot a 49" Kudu and was proud to have it on their wall. Just not my way to rain on someone's parade like that.

Regarding my expectations of my PH, I've hunted long enough to know that they're no guarantees when it comes to trophy sized or more specifically exceptionally large sized animals. If I tell my PH I only want to shoot a Kudu 55" or better, then I want him to only say that's your bull there Phil and it at the least come close to 55" or better. If the bull were to come in at 50", then the PH did not meet my expectations. If by the end of the hunt after seeing lots of kudu and some nice bulls, my PH never said there was one that met my requirements and I go home empty handed, that's okay. Provided my PH was in the game and working hard for me, he did not fail to meet my expectations. There's no guarantee that you'll shoot a particularly large version of any animal.

 

[gillettehunter]

As I look at some of my trophies from my first hunt they are not trophies. Nice representative animals. I still believe my PH probably should not of let me shoot a 18 inch Impala. Better should of been available or just not hunted. Last trip was the same. East Cape Kudu and springbuck. Just not what I was paying for. Taken to say they filled my wish list. On the other hand I have some animals that I worked very hard for. They have a special place in my heart. Both African and American animals. Sometimes the hunt is as important as the animal.
I have heard the argument that we pay "trophy fees" and should get trophies. Not just representative animals. I don't always agree with that. Sometimes the whole experience is worth more. Hopefully the trophy on the wall reminds one of a great hunt with good friends. Bruce

 

[jeff]

Trophy's are in the eye of the beholder, that said, Bronze medal SCI I think would make a good minimum for saying it's a trophy class animal. I've taken animals that didn't medal but are still trophy's to me! I have to say though that big horns are what I dream about!!!

 

[TokkieM]

Phil, by no means do I imply the EC Kudu is a subspecies, they just don't measure the way a Limpopo bull will on avarage.

We sometimes have a misconception that old battle scared animals will measure or because a animal is old it will measure. That cannot be further from the truth,good genetics,nutrition etc make for good measurements. A Kudu with poor genetics in a poor genetics pool will also become old and battle scard,he will however never become bigger.

I have no issue with what anyone puts on their wall and simply judging a trophy on a man's wall does not judge the man or his hunting experience or abillity.
My concern is that poor representative trophies are being taken knowingly by PH's and Outfitters to turn a few dollars.

 

[UKHunter]

I think it is hard to define a trophy as it is a personal thing and no two client's will have the same view on what is a trophy to them. As has been said you get the tape hunters, the experience hunters or a mixture of both.

I would not knock the man who had a 'cull' animal mounted if to him it was a trophy. He may have hunted days for the animal, both the PH and himself working hard to find the animal he wanted, walking miles in the hot sun and spent hours glassing with many busted stalks trying to get in range.If trned out not to live up to the tape then that may not matter to him. What he is left with is an experience and reward that he wont forget, he will be able to share and tell the tell for years to come and every time he looks at the beast mounted on his wall it will remind of what hunting in Africa is all about and how lucky he to have done so.

Should the animal live up to other measurements in length or award then that is an added bonus to the experience. Hunters may push themselves and the PH to find that animal that exceeds the standards and in doing so im sure will have had an experience not to forget.

However you raise an interesting point about clients being told to shoot animals that do not live up to the mark of the tape in terms of trophy award. I would always place my trust in my PH to find the animal I wanted and if it wasnt to be it wasnt to be. You have to have some reason to return! I wonder if prehaps the more experienced hunters of Africa would have recognised their trophy did not live up to the trophy standards for that animal, and instead pay the cull fee for the animal rather than the trophy fee? I have a feeling it would be inexperiencedand uneducated hunters of African game such as my self who may be told to shoot sub-standard trophy standard animals?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil, by no means do I imply the EC Kudu is a subspecies, they just don't measure the way a Limpopo bull will on avarage.

We sometimes have a misconception that old battle scared animals will measure or because a animal is old it will measure. That cannot be further from the truth,good genetics,nutrition etc make for good measurements. A Kudu with poor genetics in a poor genetics pool will also become old and battle scard,he will however never become bigger.

I have no issue with what anyone puts on their wall and simply judging a trophy on a man's wall does not judge the man or his hunting experience or abillity.
My concern is that poor representative trophies are being taken knowingly by PH's and Outfitters to turn a few dollars.

No issue taken by me, so don't sweat it. Good topic of conversation too.

There certainly is the possibility of a guy getting pushed into shooting what would be considered more of a cull animal especially if he's a new to Africa hunter. There is some responsibility on the hunter to educate themselves on what is and isn't a true trophy animal for the area he/she is hunting in. But the greater responsibility is certainly on the PH/Outfitter.

I would have to guess that in the end the types of PH's/Outfitters that are intentionally doing this will be exposed through hunt reports on AH and other places. Not everyone is going to post a report on the internet, but sooner or later one will and it will come into the light of day.

 

[Scott Slough]

5' 4" auburn hair with a few little freckles on her nose and married to me for 35 years this August!

 

[Bhfs300]

I have been on two safaris and when things are done I have had this thought. The first one I was hunting with a bow and my main animal was a kudu. We looked at a bunch of them for three days and my PH said that they had to be at least have tops that are pointing in. Finally one came in and he said it was a shooter so I took the shot when it cleared the other animals. I was happy with him thought it had great color on the mane etc. later when the skull and cape were salted the other hunter in camp wanted to measure it and it measured 45 inches. That was the only trophy that I had shoulder mounted form my original plan. Since then I haven't heard of to many shot that small.
What do you guys think. The other hunter decided to get a kudu also since he wasn't having any luck with two of his animals and the owner took him over to a different property and he got one that was 52".

 

[JimP]

Without going back and reading all the responses to this question here is my feed back.

A animal does not need to meet the guidelines that SCI, Boone and Crocket, or Pope and Young to be a trophy to me.

While I would like to be able to place a grand animal on my wall I understand that it isn't going to happen on every hunt and have found out that the hunt itself is the trophy in my mind. Being with good friend and making new friends on the trip is a primary goal that I set whenever I pick up my rifle, pistol, or bow and head out into the field.

I shot a large 5x6 bull elk last year on the muzzle loader hunt here in Colorado that was just as big of a trophy as my larger elk and I had no qualms about pulling the trigger on him and his horns are hanging on my wall and I am just as proud of him as any other animal that I have shot.

I actually think that a lot of hunters get caught up in the inch game and a lot of them go home disappointed when that 60" kudu doesn't show up on there hunt in Africa or that 400 pt bull elk when they are in the hills of a western state. I have also seen a lot of hunters do nothing but complain when all they are seeing are animals that won't make the top 10 of what ever book they are planning on putting it into.

Next month on my first and quite possibly only safari I am going with a open mind and a closed pocket book (ha ha on the pocket book) and any animal that I shoot is going to be a trophy to me and I could care less what the next guy is saying.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

First of all do I prefer a mature animal with no broken tips.
I am more picky when hunting with a gun than when hunting with a bow.
I couldn't care less how an animal will score.
It is the challenge and experience that is important to me.

When I went for the first time to South Africa to hunt, my PH got me to shoot a Kudu bull with my gun that was far from being a trophy and it was not mature either.
On top of that it had a broken tip.
I did the mistake to trust the judgement of my PH.

That time I didn't have much of a clue about it all and didn't complain about it even if I was not happy about the animal at all.
I was not offered to pay cull price for the animal and the outfitter counted it as taken as one of the animals in my package.
Today I would not have accepted it.

Here is a pic of the bull.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

First of all do I prefer a mature animal with no broken tips.
I am more picky when hunting with a gun than when hunting with a bow.
I couldn't care less how an animal will score.
It is the challenge and experience that is important to me.

When I went for the first time to South Africa to hunt, my PH got me to shoot a Kudu bull with my gun that was far from being a trophy and it was not mature either.
On top of that it had a broken tip.
I did the mistake to trust the judgement of my PH.

That time I didn't have much of a clue about it all and didn't complain about it even if I was not happy about the animal at all.
I was not offered to pay cull price for the animal and the outfitter counted it as taken as one of the animals in my package.
Today I would not have accepted it.

Here is a pic of the bull.

Younger animal it sure seems to be. Are you willing to share the name of outfit?