Westley Wildcat

[Cervus elaphus]

Among other classic big bore rifles, the Westley Richards .425 Magnum Express grabbed by attention.
A cartridge that initially delivered a 410gr bullet at 2350fps is worthy of respect.
Both Woodleigh and Hawk make bullets for this caliber.
Apparently good brass is hard to get in the original rebated rim so some handloaders roll their own from the parent cartridge, the 404 Jeffery (and others probably). I've read that the bolt face of the .425 can be opened up to fit the .404J base - I don't know of anyone who has done this.
Q. if the Jeffery was rebarreled to .425WR using the necked up .404J brass and no rebate, would anything else need modifying?. In theory the WR cartridge should feed and eject as it is has a shorter case and overall length compared to the Jeffery.
(WR case=2.64" overall length=3.30" Jeffery case=2.87" overall length=3.53")
If this was feasible, would this rifle now be a .404 Jeffery wildcat or a .425WR wildcat?

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I’m not trying to tell you what to do. It seems to me, that’s going a long way around the barn, to get the same ballistics.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I’m not trying to tell you what to do. It seems to me, that’s going a long way around the barn, to get the same ballistics.

I won't be doing anything Wyatt, I simply want to know if it is feasible from a gunsmithing pov.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I know how you feel. Sometimes a man just sits around and wonders about things.
I too wish the 425 WR had more “modern” success than it does.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I know how you feel. Sometimes a man just sits around and wonders about things.
I too wish the 425 WR had more “modern” success than it does.

Basically what I want to know is if a .404 Jeff can be changed to a .435

 

[nztimb]

I see no reason it cant be done (other than abhorence for the concept of course ) as any number of cartridges have been necked up with results ranging from questionable to exceptional. Action choice would be a factor but I see no reason it could not be done but if it had any realy world advantage it would have been done already.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I see no reason it cant be done (other than abhorence for the concept of course ) as any number of cartridges have been necked up with results ranging from questionable to exceptional. Action choice would be a factor but I see no reason it could not be done but if it had any realy world advantage it would have been done already.

Thanks Von. Like many other wildcat/conversions, not all were successful. I had a sneaky suspicion that it might be possible to just change the barrel/chamber to a .425/435 without altering the action and be able to swap back the .404 barrel if it didn't work out. I like the idea of forming the brass from the .404 (taking away the problem of good brass supply) by just shortening the neck and expanding it to take the .435 bullets which are getting more widely available from places like Hawk & Woodleigh. Hawk have 5 bullets on offer while Woodleigh have 2. I wouldn't feel sad about the concept as I believe the .425WR was around before the .404J. Another option that you may find more palatable would be to build a M17 30-06 and convert that to .425WR, what are your thoughts on that?

 

[nztimb]

My tounge in cheek comment was on the changing of the 404 Jeffery case away from its original use but that is because I built one and have a great deal of respect for the cartridge and while I did not have the opportunity to take it after DG I did do a great deal of testing with the cartridge.
Another alteration that may be needed for a rifle already chambered for the Jeffery Cartridge is the feed ramp for the marginally wider bullet, but building one from the likes of the P14 / M17 is likely only going to need the same attention that would be needed for any other build on an action that was designed for the 303 or 30-06.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

My tounge in cheek comment was on the changing of the 404 Jeffery case away from its original use but that is because I built one and have a great deal of respect for the cartridge and while I did not have the opportunity to take it after DG I did do a great deal of testing with the cartridge.
Another alteration that may be needed for a rifle already chambered for the Jeffery Cartridge is the feed ramp for the marginally wider bullet, but building one from the likes of the P14 / M17 is likely only going to need the same attention that would be needed for any other build on an action that was designed for the 303 or 30-06.

I understand that. Most good cartridges have been wildcatted, the .375H&H is a good example of that, look how many cals sprung from it, and the 404J as well. The Blaser R8 has interchangeable barrels, a follow on from that early rifle/shotgun hybrid that had a .22mag above and .410g in the barrel below. Like Bryson DeChambeau's scientific changes to golf, rifles are going the same way it seems. Cheers

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I won't be doing anything Wyatt, I simply want to know if it is feasible from a gunsmithing pov.

@Cervus elaphas
Mate anything is feasible If'n you have the $$$$.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Basically what I want to know is if a .404 Jeff can be changed to a .435

@Cervus elaphas
You could neck to anything from 17 cal to 470 if you want.
Bob

 

[Cervus elaphus]

@Cervus elaphas
You could neck to anything from 17 cal to 470 if you want.
Bob

A 404/17 sounds fantastic ! but it's the rifle I meant. Handloaders already form .425 brass from the Jeffery

 

[Cervus elaphus]

@Cervus elaphas
Mate anything is feasible If'n you have the $$$$.
Bob

haha, what else would one spend money on!. I wasn't trying to improve the 425WR, just seeing if it could be brought into a modern setting by removing the rebated rim from the parent case, which was created so strip clips could be used, like the Garand and Lee Enfield. To be true to the venerable old girl, the rifle would have strip guides, single stack mag, 410gr SN and FMJ (Woodleigh) at 2360fps, 28" barrel and open sights. Above all, I want to see this underrated caliber not just survive but flourish and if that means changing a thing or two, then I would be happy with that. Cheers

 

[bruce moulds]

i must be different than most guys.
for a gun in this class i would just have a 416 rem.
however other guys are too scared to own a 9.3x64 and i happily went to the trouble to try one.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

i must be different than most guys.
for a gun in this class i would just have a 416 rem.
however other guys are too scared to own a 9.3x64 and i happily went to the trouble to try one.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
Having a 9.3x64 makes you deffinatly different. How bout a 425 necked to 9.3.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

bob,
i would just neck down the 416 and go shooting.

@bruce moulds
Having a 9.3x64 makes you deffinatly different. How bout a 425 necked to 9.3.
Bob

 

[Cervus elaphus]

i must be different than most guys.
for a gun in this class i would just have a 416 rem.
however other guys are too scared to own a 9.3x64 and i happily went to the trouble to try one.
bruce.

Hi Bruce, I could walk into a shop tomorrow and buy a .416 with its range of bullets from 300gr to 500gr and it would flatten every animal on the planet except the Blue whale, but nostalgia does come into it and that's why we get attached to old guns and ammo, it's not what they can do so much as what they have done. The 9.3x64, being similar to the .375H&H is an excellent cartridge. Cheers

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Among other classic big bore rifles, the Westley Richards .425 Magnum Express grabbed by attention.
A cartridge that initially delivered a 410gr bullet at 2350fps is worthy of respect.
Both Woodleigh and Hawk make bullets for this caliber.
Apparently good brass is hard to get in the original rebated rim so some handloaders roll their own from the parent cartridge, the 404 Jeffery (and others probably). I've read that the bolt face of the .425 can be opened up to fit the .404J base - I don't know of anyone who has done this.
Q. if the Jeffery was rebarreled to .425WR using the necked up .404J brass and no rebate, would anything else need modifying?. In theory the WR cartridge should feed and eject as it is has a shorter case and overall length compared to the Jeffery.
(WR case=2.64" overall length=3.30" Jeffery case=2.87" overall length=3.53")
If this was feasible, would this rifle now be a .404 Jeffery wildcat or a .425WR wildcat?

Found some interesting discussions on other web sites, it seems my thoughts on this subject are certainly not new ones. One of the comments paraphrased ...

"It was not unusual to see 425's with the bolt face opened up to use the 404 brass, or rifles with an extra bolt with the opened bolt face. In fact, I thought about going with an extra bolt for my 425”

That's one way of getting around the expensive or poor quality brass supply.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

The 425 came around after the 404. It allowed standard actions with the standard bolt to be made into decent big-game rifles while keeping the original bolt and the bonus of using stripper clips. At a time when many manufacturers had proprietary cartridges and supplied the ammo for their rifles.

I understand nostalgia and 425WR is a pretty interesting cartridge I think but Keeping the 404’s rim diameter the same and changing the other dimensions to 425WR doesn’t make it a 425WR- the ability to use stripper clips is kind of a distinguishing characteristic for the 425WR. without that, it is just one of a number of more or less ballistically interchangeable cartridges. One with a fairly limited bullet selection.

Opening up a bolt face is fairly common and made perfect sense as a relatively easy and inexpensive way to keep your existing 425WR rifle running if you found yourself owning one somewhere at a time when it was obsolescent and you couldn’t otherwise keep the rifle fed. They had a functioning rifle and the problem was finding ammo, which opening up the bolt face solved. Rebarreling a 404 existing today to a new barrel diameter is creating a problem it didn’t have in the first place. But it doesn’t turn it into a 425 WR, it turns it into a 404-based wildcat. If it was a 404 in the first place there is no need to shorten the case. For that matter there is no need to rebarrel it to 435.

On the other hand if you are trying to recreate a 425 that had been modified to allow it to run on 404 brass, you’d want to shorten the case. And probably want to start with an Enfield or something other than an existing 404 because historically nobody would have reason to change a 404 to a 425. Surely the latter could be done if for whatever reason you want to change a dangerous-game rifle into a dangerous game rifle using a more challenging to find bullet diameter and you want to make it more difficult to take with you to Africa since the headstamp of the ammo isn’t going to match the rifle. But the main problem as I see it is that you’ll end up with a rifle that isn’t a 425WR when appreciation of the 425WR seems to be the motivation for the exercise in the first place.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

The 425 came around after the 404. It allowed standard actions with the standard bolt to be made into decent big-game rifles while keeping the original bolt and the bonus of using stripper clips. At a time when many manufacturers had proprietary cartridges and supplied the ammo for their rifles.

I understand nostalgia and 425WR is a pretty interesting cartridge I think but Keeping the 404’s rim diameter the same and changing the other dimensions to 425WR doesn’t make it a 425WR- the ability to use stripper clips is kind of a distinguishing characteristic for the 425WR. without that, it is just one of a number of more or less ballistically interchangeable cartridges. One with a fairly limited bullet selection.

Opening up a bolt face is fairly common and made perfect sense as a relatively easy and inexpensive way to keep your existing 425WR rifle running if you found yourself owning one somewhere at a time when it was obsolescent and you couldn’t otherwise keep the rifle fed. They had a functioning rifle and the problem was finding ammo, which opening up the bolt face solved. Rebarreling a 404 existing today to a new barrel diameter is creating a problem it didn’t have in the first place. But it doesn’t turn it into a 425 WR, it turns it into a 404-based wildcat. If it was a 404 in the first place there is no need to shorten the case. For that matter there is no need to rebarrel it to 435.

On the other hand if you are trying to recreate a 425 that had been modified to allow it to run on 404 brass, you’d want to shorten the case. And probably want to start with an Enfield or something other than an existing 404 because historically nobody would have reason to change a 404 to a 425. Surely the latter could be done if for whatever reason you want to change a dangerous-game rifle into a dangerous game rifle using a more challenging to find bullet diameter and you want to make it more difficult to take with you to Africa since the headstamp of the ammo isn’t going to match the rifle. But the main problem as I see it is that you’ll end up with a rifle that isn’t a 425WR when appreciation of the 425WR seems to be the motivation for the exercise in the first place.

Can't fault that logic. Opening the bolt face to fit the 404 base appears to be the easier of the two and you're correct that it is no longer a .425WR, it just uses the rifle, a different cartridge base and a modified bolt. So we could call it a 404/435. Performance-wise I can't see any difference from the rebated rim version with today's modern propellants. As far as bullets go, 5 from Hawk (300gr - 450gr) and 2 from Woodleigh (410gr) and that's enough options to cover everything a .425 is expected to do. I didn't have such a rifle in mind for Africa as there are some heavy big horned and ornery bovines here in Northern Australia. Such an enterprise would be a hobby rather than a necessity and wildcats have ensured there are no sacred cows in the gun business. Cheers