Vintage German Versus British Batteries?

WebleyGreene455

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Good morning everyone.

So this is just something I've been musing over a little.

Let's say the year is around 1924 or so. How comparable are the following batteries in terms of energy and velocity, particularly the last two?

Br: .303 Lee-action sporting rifle
De: 7mm Mauser 1895/96 sporting rifle

Br: (This one I'm not sure of but maybe a .375 H&H built on a P14 action given the year.)
De: 9.3x62 Mauser 98 sporting rifle

Br: .404 Jeffery Mauser 98 sporting rifle (modified standard length action)
De: 10.75 Mauser 98 sporting rifle (standard length action)

And as a follow-up, what would be an American equivalent to these at the time? M1903 Springfield in .30-06, ditto in .35 Whelen, and... what?

~~W.G.455
 

Von Gruff

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with the 404 Jeffery for the British the German would have been the 10.75x73 (so same/same) rather than the x68 - IF - that was your intent with that 10.75 M designation.
The US category may well have been the 30-06 coupled with the 405 IE Roosevelts Big Medicine
 

WebleyGreene455

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with the 404 Jeffery for the British the German would have been the 10.75x73 (so same/same) rather than the x68 - IF - that was your intent with that 10.75 M designation.
The US category may well have been the 30-06 coupled with the 405 IE Roosevelts Big Medicine
Oh I knew I was forgetting something with the .405 Winchester.

Yeah, I meant the x68 with the 10.75 Mauser compared with a .404 Jeffery.
 

Hunter-Habib

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I’m going to answer your question in reverse order.

A purely American battery in 1924 would have to be:
Light- A Winchester Model 24 in .25-35 Winchester
Medium- A Griffin & Howe sporterized Springfield 1903 in .30-06 Springfield
Heavy- A Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester

Your British medium bore could also be a .318 Westley Richards. This was an EXTREMELY popular medium bore during the 1920s. Post World War I, Cogswell & Harrison built these for several years on modified Pattern 14 Enfield actions.

Also, your German big bore magazine rifle could potentially be an August Schuler Model 34 in 11.2x72mm Schuler. Since it used a 400 grain bullet, it would be far more of a fair comparison against the .404 Jeffery.

The 10.75x68mm Mauser has only ONE thing common with the .404 Jeffery: The .423 caliber bullet diameter. It would be like comparing the .45-70 Government with the .458 Lott, simply because their bullet diameter is similar. The 10.75x68mm Mauser was always designed as an economic option for farmers and settlers in Germany’s African colonies, who weren’t interested in seriously hunting dangerous game. But just needed a handy general purpose bush rifle, which could afford some degree of fair protection against the odd livestock killing lion or rogue elephant or crop raiding hippopotamus.

My preferred British three rifle battery in 1924 would comprise:
Light- Holland & Holland Mauser 98 action magazine rifle in .240 Apex
Medium- Holland & Holland Mauser 98 action magazine rifle in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum
Heavy- George Gibbs Mauser 98 action magazine rifle in .505 Gibbs

My preferred German three rifle battery in 1924 would comprise:
Light- Original Mauser Oberndorf in 7x57mm Mauser
Medium- Original Mauser Oberndorf in 9.3x62mm Mauser
Heavy- August Schuler Model Jumbo in 12.7×70mm Schuler
 

mark-hunter

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Let's say the year is around 1924 or so.
Br: (This one I'm not sure of but maybe a .375 H&H built on a P14 action given the year.)
De: 9.3x62 Mauser 98 sporting rifle



For the year of period "or so": you can also consider 9.3x64, introduced in 1927, which is ballistic twin of 375 H&H.
 

WebleyGreene455

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I’m going to answer your question in reverse order.

A purely American battery in 1924 would have to be:
Light- A Winchester Model 24 in .25-35 Winchester
Medium- A Griffin & Howe sporterized Springfield 1903 in .30-06 Springfield
Heavy- A Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester

Your British medium bore could also be a .318 Westley Richards. This was an EXTREMELY popular medium bore during the 1920s. Post World War I, Cogswell & Harrison built these for several years on modified Pattern 14 Enfield actions.

Also, your German big bore magazine rifle could potentially be an August Schuler Model 34 in 11.2x72mm Schuler. Since it used a 400 grain bullet, it would be far more of a fair comparison against the .404 Jeffery.

The 10.75x68mm Mauser has only ONE thing common with the .404 Jeffery: The .423 caliber bullet diameter. It would be like comparing the .45-70 Government with the .458 Lott, simply because their bullet diameter is similar. The 10.75x68mm Mauser was always designed as an economic option for farmers and settlers in Germany’s African colonies, who weren’t interested in seriously hunting dangerous game. But just needed a handy general purpose bush rifle, which could afford some degree of fair protection against the odd livestock killing lion or rogue elephant or crop raiding hippopotamus.

My preferred British three rifle battery in 1924 would comprise:
Light- Holland & Holland Mauser 98 action magazine rifle in .240 Apex
Medium- Holland & Holland Mauser 98 action magazine rifle in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum
Heavy- George Gibbs Mauser 98 action magazine rifle in .505 Gibbs

My preferred German three rifle battery in 1924 would comprise:
Light- Original Mauser Oberndorf in 7x57mm Mauser
Medium- Original Mauser Oberndorf in 9.3x62mm Mauser
Heavy- August Schuler Model Jumbo in 12.7×70mm Schuler
Thanks very much for your reply/input!

A lever-action .405 combined with a British "light" rifle (in my case the .303, as I said) and a German 9.3x62 "medium" would certainly round out the trio, and for an American, having a Winchester seems an obvious choice. A pity it was mostly found in the '95 or in single/double-shot rifles, with the only bolt-action I know of for it being the Remington-Lee. I suppose there might have been some others out there but I suspect those are few and far between and likely didn't work as well as their owners would've liked. If we're restricting the "heavy" rifle to bolt-action magazine rifles, though, we'll turn to your other suggestions...

Good God, the "Jumbo" action is an odd-looking thing! I went and had a look at some on google and they certainly fit in with my idea of blunt German practicality. Aesthetics (or at least sleekness) seem to have been sacrificed somewhat when that action was designed, but I wouldn't expect any less from them. I'm now given to understand that the 12.7mm Schueler was designed to (barely) fit into a standard M98 action, hence the rebated rim? I imagine you'd only be able to pack two or three rounds into the magazine for that. Was the 11.2mm Schueler designed for that too?

A .505 Gibbs would need a magnum-length action, right? So if one only had a standard M98 and didn't want to remove any metal or worry about modifying it, one would want to go with the Schueler round over the Gibbs or the .404 Jeff or .416 Rigby, presuming it fits?

But really, a heavy rifle like we're talking about is geared towards something like elephant and rhino and as extra-power on lions and tigers and bears; if none of those were on the plan or if your medium rifle was strong enough to take them cleanly, having a heavy rifle would be a bit superfluous, no?
 

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A better date for comparison would have been 1914. In 1918, Germany lost all of its African colonies. It also entered a period of economic chaos which lasted until 1933. Relatively few Germans were headed to Africa, while at the same time, the British caliber solutions were becoming predominate in East Africa. I have always believed had WWI had never happened or ended differently, our DG rifles would have been OU's and chambered in metric calibers.
 
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WebleyGreene455

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A better date for comparison would have been 1914. In 1918, Germany lost all of its African colonies. It also entered a period of economic chaos which lasted until 1933. Relatively few Germans were headed to Africa, while at the same time, the British caliber solutions were becoming predominate in East Africa. I have always believed had WWI had never happened or ended differently, our DG rifles would have been OU's and chambered in metric calibers.
The original version of the question was nonspecific about where this hypothetical expedition was taking place. A archaeological/paleontological/treasure-hunting/animal-hunting expedition to Africa, Asia, South America, Skull Island, what-have-you. 1924-ish was chosen because it was the setting for the 1999 version of The Mummy, and during the interwar exploration period without going too close to the 1930s. Plus it would allow for some of the later big-bore cartridges to be around. German vs British was just for a comparison of calibres and actions, not necessarily country of origin. I ended up editing the question to omit that and just ask for a straighter comparison.

But 1912-1914 would be just fine and admittedly in my mind I was leaning closer to that timeframe than the '20s.
 

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