Threat to African Hunting?

[375Fox]

When costs of the hunts themselves go up I wonder what some of the reasons are. Obviously there’s travel, government fees, etc that are a different matter. There are certain things that will obviously make operating costs go up, such as fuel prices, inflation and so forth. But when prices are going up “because people will pay them” I feel like it’s not only bad for the community but it can’t be that much better for the outfitters themselves.

In a thread I saw a few days ago it was mentioned that an Alaskan outfitters never raised prices because it wasn’t necessary, but was eventually convinced by other outfitters to raise them because he could. The thought process being that instead of booking 20 hunters you could make the same amount of money booking 5 who would pay the insane amount.

Is it not better for outfitters to have a larger clientele to cater to? If 1 out of 20 cancels, that’s a lot larger hit than if 1 out of 5 cancels. And someone spending $100k on a hunt probably isn’t in a financial situation where losing a deposit affects him.

With the attack on hunters in American media, it’s always highlighted about the cost of the trip and that the guy was wealthy in an attempt to dehumanize whoever is being highlighted in the article. It’s not seen as Average Joe on trip of a lifetime, it’s portrayed as some rich asshole who loves slaughtering animals because he’s wealthy (which to be fair is another problem altogether).

It seems to me that there has to be a happy medium where outfits are still profitable but the prices don’t exclude guys who are passionate about hunting and conservation. Maybe a few big name outfits and taxidermy studios try to set an example and drop prices. Airlines and governments aren’t gonna make it easier on hunters, so we have to help ourselves.

I could be missing something, but there’s got to be some way to save it for ourselves and future generations

How eager would you be to cut prices for work you do? If you were running business would you rather have 10 very good clients that simply pay their bill or 20 clients looking for the best deal? How many part time guides (with their own set of problems) and other staff would you like to employ? How well do you know their skills and how they are with clients? I think the goal of every business is to maximize profit, but there is also a cost to put on frustration. Smaller is easier to manage and can better focus on quality. The outfitter’s catering to more serious hunters likely have a lot less cancellations. The outfitter’s trying to get business by offering a better deal than their competition have a lot less loyal client base and less loyal employees.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

How eager would you be to cut prices for work you do? If you were running business would you rather have 10 very good clients that simply pay their bill or 20 clients looking for the best deal? How many part time guides (with their own set of problems) and other staff would you like to employ? How well do you know their skills and how they are with clients? I think the goal of every business is to maximize profit, but there is also a cost to put on frustration. Smaller is easier to manage and can better focus on quality. The outfitter’s catering to more serious hunters likely have a lot less cancellations. The outfitter’s trying to get business by offering a better deal than their competition have a lot less loyal client base and less loyal employees.

I think you missed my point. I don’t think a majority of the people paying those prices are serious hunters. Just like serious car guys don’t buy lambos or Bugattis. Those prices are reserved for the rich looking for things to spend money on because they can. We haven’t reached the level to alienate those dedicated to hunting and conservation…yet

 

[375Fox]

I think you missed my point. I don’t think a majority of the people paying those prices are serious hunters. Just like serious car guys don’t buy lambos or Bugattis. Those prices are reserved for the rich looking for things to spend money on because they can. We haven’t reached the level to alienate those dedicated to hunting and conservation…yet

So what is your point? Wealthy individuals can’t be serious hunters? The negative hunt reports here are generally from the lowest cost hunts and those looking for the best deal at the other end of the spectrum. Like it or not, the market hasn’t priced itself out yet. Jealously creates new problems and a lot of ridiculous ideas. It’s a free market. No one is going to lower their prices as a charity.

 

[coreydb]

It would be interesting to see the reasons for the cancellations. What I can see is the high petrol costs impacting hunting costs and airline travel. Trickle-down effect from the Iranian debacle.

 

[deewayne2003]

So what is your point? Wealthy individuals can’t be serious hunters? The negative hunt reports here are generally from the lowest cost hunts and those looking for the best deal at the other end of the spectrum. Like it or not, the market hasn’t priced itself out yet. Jealously creates new problems and a lot of ridiculous ideas. It’s a free market. No one is going to lower their prices as a charity.

You mention the bad reviews on cheaper options....

I submit another thing to consider, most of the people I know that will drop $100K+ for experiences also have massive egos that will not allow them to admit that something sucked or they got duped into paying way more than they should have or at least not in public.

Example - Just a few years ago in wealthy circles people were bragging endlessly about the NFT's they bought and how much they paid for them; now when is the last time you heard anything about paying tens if not hundreds of thousands for an NFT?

How eager would you be to cut prices for work you do? If you were running business would you rather have 10 very good clients that simply pay their bill or 20 clients looking for the best deal?

We all love the big clients in business, but bottom line is that if it were not for my smaller accounts I'd be shutting the doors on my business; also, I understand full and well that my smaller accounts are MUCH more loyal to using my business for the quality customer service and attention to detail I offer versus the bottom dollar Indian telecommuters.

My big money clients on the other hand are constantly looking for a cheaper option and if they could hire a $5hr engineer from India to do the work - They can, have and WILL!

No loyalty from the big money world and that's why I have no shame in skinning them alive when $5mil+ of equipment is shut down because the discount India techs screwed up and until the issue is resolved the jobsite is hemorrhaging money.

I never thought I would say this but for the first time in almost 40 years I am NOT planning a trip to Africa. My reasons, I'm tired of being treating like an unlimited ATM machine by everyone involved in the trip.
If I'm going to hunt, I want to bring my trophies home. Shipping, dip/pack, transfer fees, inspection fees, etc etc etc. On top of that, I am told how much to tip and it has been crazy numbers. The 15% extra on daily rate and now trophy fees is the killer card for me.
Simply state how much a hunt daily rate and trophy fees are and if it fits I will go. When I have to end up paying more for the add ons than the trip then time to check out. I've seen this snowballing for the last ten years and I sucked it up but no more, I'm done with BS.

I hear yah on the other fees, I'm set for Zim in 2027 and I'll be taking a break after that and focusing on Australia while I......
1. Give time for boomers to exit the hunting market.
2. Decide just how important that leopard hunt really is to me.

Yes you pay money to hunt in Australia, however there are things working in it's favor like......
1. It's a first world country with appropriate infrastructure.
2. Much lower population densities so you can still find wild areas.
3. Upfront pricing, none of this Daily+Animals+VAT+ ranger expense+ transport ++++++
4. You can actually walk around the cities and towns without an escort
5. TIPPING - You pay and you're done; tips are always appreciated but you don't get the.....

"Tips are completely discretionary..... Now that will be $2K to the PH, $200 to each tracker, $400 for the camp manager, $150 for the laundry woman, $150 for the cook, ect, ect, ect......."

 

[375Fox]

You mention the bad reviews on cheaper options....

I submit another thing to consider, most of the people I know that will drop $100K+ for experiences also have massive egos that will not allow them to admit that something sucked or they got duped into paying way more than they should have or at least not in public.

Example - Just a few years ago in wealthy circles people were bragging endlessly about the NFT's they bought and how much they paid for them; now when is the last time you heard anything about paying tens if not hundreds of thousands for an NFT?


We all love the big clients in business, but bottom line is that if it were not for my smaller accounts I'd be shutting the doors on my business; also, I understand full and well that my smaller accounts are MUCH more loyal to using my business for the quality customer service and attention to detail I offer versus the bottom dollar Indian telecommuters.

My big money clients on the other hand are constantly looking for a cheaper option and if they could hire a $5hr engineer from India to do the work - They can, have and WILL!

No loyalty from the big money world and that's why I have no shame in skinning them alive when $5mil+ of equipment is shut down because the discount India techs screwed up and until the issue is resolved the jobsite is hemorrhaging money.


I hear yah on the other fees, I'm set for Zim in 2027 and I'll be taking a break after that and focusing on Australia while I......
1. Give time for boomers to exit the hunting market.
2. Decide just how important that leopard hunt really is to me.

Yes you pay money to hunt in Australia, however there are things working in it's favor like......
1. It's a first world country with appropriate infrastructure.
2. Much lower population densities so you can still find wild areas.
3. Upfront pricing, none of this Daily+Animals+VAT+ ranger expense+ transport ++++++
4. You can actually walk around the cities and towns without an escort
5. TIPPING - You pay and you're done; tips are always appreciated but you don't get the.....

"Tips are completely discretionary..... Now that will be $2K to the PH, $200 to each tracker, $400 for the camp manager, $150 for the laundry woman, $150 for the cook, ect, ect, ect......."

There’s definitely a middle ground. If I was an outfitter I think I’d want to target Individuals that worked for their money and are well off, but respect others who work for theirs. Some of the wealthy have an arrogance that bothers me, but at the other end of the spectrum those without money who think they worked harder for it than someone else or believe someone held them back bother me more. Someone had the nerve to ask for a blue collar discount for the working man here a few years ago. What do they think outfitters are? Someone might not like the extremely wealthy who can throw $100k+ around on a hunt like it’s no big deal, but those expensive hunts pay for areas in Africa. They allow other more reasonable hunts to exist beneath them to sell more common hunts like buffalo and Plains game. The idea to collectively drop pricing so an “average Joe” can afford is no different than any other failed socialist idea that’s been proposed.

For your specific example, I’d say there is a difference between a quality customer and a big customer. One doesn’t equal the other. The cheapest customer is one that will cause the problems. For hunts, except for some corporate hunts, we are all booking as individuals.

 

[Beck]

I wouldn't fly through the middle east on the way over, but other than that no concerns

 

[JPbowhunter]

You mention the bad reviews on cheaper options....

I submit another thing to consider, most of the people I know that will drop $100K+ for experiences also have massive egos that will not allow them to admit that something sucked or they got duped into paying way more than they should have or at least not in public.

Example - Just a few years ago in wealthy circles people were bragging endlessly about the NFT's they bought and how much they paid for them; now when is the last time you heard anything about paying tens if not hundreds of thousands for an NFT?


We all love the big clients in business, but bottom line is that if it were not for my smaller accounts I'd be shutting the doors on my business; also, I understand full and well that my smaller accounts are MUCH more loyal to using my business for the quality customer service and attention to detail I offer versus the bottom dollar Indian telecommuters.

My big money clients on the other hand are constantly looking for a cheaper option and if they could hire a $5hr engineer from India to do the work - They can, have and WILL!

No loyalty from the big money world and that's why I have no shame in skinning them alive when $5mil+ of equipment is shut down because the discount India techs screwed up and until the issue is resolved the jobsite is hemorrhaging money.


I hear yah on the other fees, I'm set for Zim in 2027 and I'll be taking a break after that and focusing on Australia while I......
1. Give time for boomers to exit the hunting market.
2. Decide just how important that leopard hunt really is to me.

Yes you pay money to hunt in Australia, however there are things working in it's favor like......
1. It's a first world country with appropriate infrastructure.
2. Much lower population densities so you can still find wild areas.
3. Upfront pricing, none of this Daily+Animals+VAT+ ranger expense+ transport ++++++
4. You can actually walk around the cities and towns without an escort
5. TIPPING - You pay and you're done; tips are always appreciated but you don't get the.....

"Tips are completely discretionary..... Now that will be $2K to the PH, $200 to each tracker, $400 for the camp manager, $150 for the laundry woman, $150 for the cook, ect, ect, ect......."

I agree on both parts.

While some small guys are a pain and some big guys are great, as a general rule the bigger guys are far more demanding, nowhere near as loyal and at least in my industry the tardiest when it comes to paying accounts on time.

On point 3, there’s no reason those prices can’t be included in the total. I hate hidden costs in anything.

I also agree Aus is an under valued destination, but it is getting more recognition. As I said earlier I’ve been quoted a hunt in usd here in Aus which is a joke. Once outfitters break into the US market they know they can jack prices through the roof, and do.
They can charge an Aussie $4-5k usd for a buff hunt and make money, or they can get big bulls mustered off a station, drop em on a flood plain and charge an American $15-20k and make a killing.

As you know, we have some awesome diy options.
Somehow though, I don’t think the ultra wealthy guys that hunt expensive places for “the experience” would like a 10 day back country sambar hunt.

I’d welcome more Americans coming here for diy sambar hunting, just leave your tipping culture in the states thanks!

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

So what is your point? Wealthy individuals can’t be serious hunters? The negative hunt reports here are generally from the lowest cost hunts and those looking for the best deal at the other end of the spectrum. Like it or not, the market hasn’t priced itself out yet. Jealously creates new problems and a lot of ridiculous ideas. It’s a free market. No one is going to lower their prices as a charity.

My point is that there has to be a middle ground where your average guy can actually see some of these trips as more than a once in a lifetime. A wealthy guy can be a serious hunter, but eventually prices will hit a point when it takes a certain amount of ego to pay it, and those customers will be insufferable. But way before that happens, you will hit a price point where the guys that have been loyal for years and years can no longer afford it. For your example of owning a business, if my prices have been affordable for years, and I’ve had the same 20 customers, why would I now jack my prices up to alienate 15 of them. You talk about customer loyalty, but there’s gotta be a certain amount of loyalty to customers. Companies prove time and time again that you can have reasonable prices and still turn a profit

 

[LivingTheDream]

My point is that there has to be a middle ground where your average guy can actually see some of these trips as more than a once in a lifetime

I actually think this will be a bigger issue with Western hunting in the US. The point schemes have caused a lot of premium areas to be once in a lifetime (and legally once in a lifetime for some). Definitely a lot of people saying the heck with it.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

I actually think this will be a bigger issue with Western hunting in the US. The point schemes have caused a lot of premium areas to be once in a lifetime (and legally once in a lifetime for some). Definitely a lot of people saying the heck with it.

I agree, my comment was not specifically about Africa. Outside looking in South Africa looks like the best deal in hunting. But I’m worried everyone will start heading the way that sheep outfitters have

 

[Huntforever]

Trading notes with a South African outfitter I know personally as well as have hunted with him three times.......he says hunt cancellations are running much higher so far this season than usual apparently due to concerns with flight scheduling / changing / costs as well as general concerns with mid east political / conflict issues. Is this likely to become a continuing concern?

I’m sure that’s some of it but I think part of it Africa is beginning to over price their hunts once you add in taxidermy. shipping, airline tickets and cost of the hunt. Once the covid hunters get their fill maybe hunt prices will go back down. Maybe.

I have seen a lot of State hunts showing up lately for deals.

 

[deewayne2003]

There’s definitely a middle ground. If I was an outfitter I think I’d want to target Individuals that worked for their money and are well off, but respect others who work for theirs. Some of the wealthy have an arrogance that bothers me, but at the other end of the spectrum those without money who think they worked harder for it than someone else or believe someone held them back bother me more. Someone had the nerve to ask for a blue collar discount for the working man here a few years ago. What do they think outfitters are? Someone might not like the extremely wealthy who can throw $100k+ around on a hunt like it’s no big deal, but those expensive hunts pay for areas in Africa. They allow other more reasonable hunts to exist beneath them to sell more common hunts like buffalo and Plains game. The idea to collectively drop pricing so an “average Joe” can afford is no different than any other failed socialist idea that’s been proposed.

For your specific example, I’d say there is a difference between a quality customer and a big customer. One doesn’t equal the other. The cheapest customer is one that will cause the problems. For hunts, except for some corporate hunts, we are all booking as individuals.

Reminds me of another forum member that asked for a …
“Senior Citizens Discount” - he got burned pretty good.

Can you imagine reaching the age of retirement and spending your time traveling and Safari hunting while expecting an outfitter to lower their prices because of your age?

It’s an international hunting outfit in remote Africa, not a breakfast at IHOP! If anything it’s much more work to accommodate an elderly person and also a greater liability that you’ll have to deal with a medical emergency for them as well; and sadly there is also an attitude of ….

“I’m old so you owe me”

That is not universal amongst elderly people but is quite common in American elderly; or so I’ve been told by tourism operators on 5 continents.

 

[Justbryan]

The rising cost of travel will certainly affect the amount of money a hunter has available to spend on the hunt itself. In my case, the $3,600 airfare for two people for my September hunt will reduce the hunt budget by the equivalent of one or two animals. This will, in turn, affect outfitters directly.

This is a real concern for African hunting. It will especially affect the first-time hunter who is trying to justify the cost of traveling to Africa versus hunting in the United States. When additional expenses such as shipping, taxidermy, and import taxes are added, many hunters may decide not to go at all.

For the hunter on subsequent trips, some costs can be reduced by skipping taxidermy and shipping and targeting only specific species. Even so, this shift in spending still affects outfitters, as overall on-the-ground revenue may decrease.

My wife has worked for a major airline for 38 years, and we have traveled extensively around the world. We book international flights on the first day tickets become available and recommend that others do the same. I also set up Google alerts to monitor price drops, and with some carriers, we receive an automatic refund when fares decrease. Going forward, we will reduce shipping, taxidermy, and expenses related to excursions.

But I am always concerned about the growing issue of flight cancellations. On my last trip to Africa, I was stranded for several days in Johannesburg which is not the ideal place to spend time.

 

[Philip Glass]

Trading notes with a South African outfitter I know personally as well as have hunted with him three times.......he says hunt cancellations are running much higher so far this season than usual apparently due to concerns with flight scheduling / changing / costs as well as general concerns with mid east political / conflict issues. Is this likely to become a continuing concern?

Americans are deathly afraid of international travel and especially Africa. Your guess is as good as mine as to why this is. Your friend is quite correct and the cancellations on offer are all over the web this year. The fears of these folks are unfounded. Other than the Arab carriers flights are all going as normal and the pathways to Africa are wide open.
Do we have a resident AH Psychologist? Maybe he or she could enlighten us as to why Americans fear International travel?

Side note: our Christian school takes a group on a mission trip to Guatemala annually. There is nothing going on in Guatemala yet each year there are some parents afraid to send their kids on a free international adventure to share the Gospel of Jesus to Central America!
Go figure!

 

[BRICKBURN]

....Do we have a resident AH Psychologist? Maybe he or she could enlighten us as to why Americans fear International travel? .....

Ignorance and fear are a combination that supports many phobias and anxieties.

• Anxiety and the unknown.
• Inability to read a map/globe and understand geography,
• Failure to differentiate/understand disease transmission and vectors,
• xenophobia,
• etc.

As an example:
The nurses in Dallas Texas (2014) that contracted EBOLA would have been in closer proximity to the fearful anywhere in the continental USA than those would be travelers landing in South Africa were to the Liberian EBOLA outbreak at the time.

Ebola is transmitted through direct contact with bodily fluid, not a cough.


Liberia to JNB

Dallas to Anchorage, AK.

 

[Muskox]

Americans are deathly afraid of international travel and especially Africa. Your guess is as good as mine as to why this is. Your friend is quite correct and the cancellations on offer are all over the web this year. The fears of these folks are unfounded. Other than the Arab carriers flights are all going as normal and the pathways to Africa are wide open.
Do we have a resident AH Psychologist? Maybe he or she could enlighten us as to why Americans fear International travel?

Side note: our Christian school takes a group on a mission trip to Guatemala annually. There is nothing going on in Guatemala yet each year there are some parents afraid to send their kids on a free international adventure to share the Gospel of Jesus to Central America!
Go figure!

I was in the military for 20 years, and then have another 12 years of mostly working with the DOW as a civil servant.

Something like 16-18 years of total overseas expat living.

The number of people that are here in the military, with some money in their pocket to burn and don't travel outside of the work to home to grocery store (always the on base commissary never the German stores ) is insane. They live in a triangle.

I spent 5 years in Las Cruces, NM before I came back overseas. I think it is the same in America. Live in a triangle. Home, grocery store, mountains on the weekend, work, Disneyland every other year. Still not really moving and shaking.

Traveling to Africa has to be terrifying for folks like that.

One of my father's greatest regrets is that he never went to Ireland. He is 85, and never really did much for himself. So I can see that as a negative. Had money lives in a big house on big property with a big shop. Wasn't his thing I guess.

People are funny.

 

[Philip Glass]

I was in the military for 20 years, and then have another 12 years of mostly working with the DOW as a civil servant.

Something like 16-18 years of total overseas expat living.

The number of people that are here in the military, with some money in their pocket to burn and don't travel outside of the work to home to grocery store (always the on base commissary never the German stores ) is insane. They live in a triangle.

I spent 5 years in Las Cruces, NM before I came back overseas. I think it is the same in America. Live in a triangle. Home, grocery store, mountains on the weekend, work, Disneyland every other year. Still not really moving and shaking.

Traveling to Africa has to be terrifying for folks like that.

One of my father's greatest regrets is that he never went to Ireland. He is 85, and never really did much for himself. So I can see that as a negative. Had money lives in a big house on big property with a big shop. Wasn't his thing I guess.

People are funny.

Yes surprisingly it has been several military folks who flatly stated "I would not go to XYZ country because of what I saw in the military". I'm scratching my head. What? What does that have to do with going on a mission trip to Guatemala or a safari to RSA?

 

[Philip Glass]

Ignorance and fear are a combination that supports many phobias and anxieties.

• Anxiety and the unknown.
• Inability to read a map/globe and understand geography,
• Failure to differentiate/understand disease transmission and vectors,
• xenophobia,
• etc.

As an example:
The nurses in Dallas Texas (2014) that contracted EBOLA would have been in closer proximity to the fearful anywhere in the continental USA than those would be travelers landing in South Africa were to the Liberian EBOLA outbreak at the time.

Ebola is transmitted through direct contact with bodily fluid, not a cough.


Liberia to JNB
View attachment 763190

Dallas to Anchorage, AK.
View attachment 763191

Funny. I remember my late aunt worrying about me going to RSA because of Ebola back in 2014!

 

[45-70guy]

I’m in SA as well speak, I could give two *** less of what’s going on in the Middle East. One thing is we won’t all grow old, but we all will die. Live your life.