Thoughts on the use of a Pederzoli Kodiak .50 sxs muzzle loader : 370gn Maxi-balls for plains game hunting?

[Daryl S]

Might depend on the barrel's composition. Whst steel was used. Of that I do not know.
Flash rusting was HARD on my 1970's TC barrel. WHAT steel do think those barrels were comprised of?
Calling me a liar is bad form, IT happened to me, my brother,and hundreds of other BP shooters.
Saying it didn't happen just shows your fucking ignorance.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Might depend on the barrel's composition. Whst steel was used. Of that I do not know.
Flash rusting was HARD on my 1970's TC barrel. WHAT steel do think those barrels were comprised of?
Calling me a liar is bad form, IT happened to me, my brother,and hundreds of other BP shooters.
Saying it didn't happen just shows your fucking ignorance.

Assuming you are replying to 458, I re-read what he said and he did not call you a liar and i wouldn’t call him ignorant. I tend to agree with him to a point, I’ve only been shooting black powder for about 50 years ( I started when I was a teenager with my now deceased BIL ) and we used warm soapy water, and rinsed with diluted soluble oil and patched dry before oiling for storage. These days I still do much the same though tend to shoot BP cartridge. You say you had rust, you may have, I can’t say you didn’t as I wasn’t there, could have been poor quality steel, I don’t know, my Proctor 14g shotgun is nearly 200 years old and doesn’t flash rust when I clean the Damascus barrels, neither do my handguns. Most of the people at my club have a cleaning regime much the same.
One thing that may be a contributing factor to what you say happened is atmospheric humidity.
Gumpy

 

[Gert Odendaal]

If you want to tighten the groups you could try using more powder. I found my Pedersoli 1:24” twist barrel liked 110-120 grains of 2F to push a 250grain hornady monoflex into reasonable groups.

JPbow hunter thank you for your reply and opinion, it is as usual very much appreciated. I think I will move up to 90gn of FFFG ZAR black powder. I still have ample flat base BushveldStalker 395gn and 425gn bullets to shoot..maybe the increase in weight and black powder loads will give me a smaller group out to 80 meters.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I’ve read about the “flash rust” theory for years. Stating no flash rust after cold water only cleaning yada yada yada. The chemistry of that theory escapes me. As does the aversion to using soap for cleaning a bp gun. I’ve been shooting blackpowder muzzleloaders since 1968, have used hot soapy water followed by hot rinse water followed by several dry, clean patches while barrel is still hot followed by aerorsol spray oil like WD .., etc. After that method, bores are completely void of powder residue and void of moisture and are protected by thin oil film so no flash rust (whatever that is?) and no rust of any kind over time when put in storage.

Some of the worst, sewer pipe bores I’ve ever looked at were a result of users’ poor/lazy cleaning habits after shooting subs like Pyrodex. I tried Pyrodex a few times when it first came out (about 1977) and still have the remainder of the 1/2 full cardboard can it came in. Hard fouling, super corrosive with zero advantage over real bp. If you use a bp sub like Pyrodex, be aware of the potentials.

fourfive8 , thank you kindly for your feedback it is much appreciated...

NO, NO I am using natural ZAR Black Powder, manufactured here in South Africa Witbank, Mpumalanga by the owner of JS Gunsmith Johan Greyling..

Johan Greyling is the only manufacturer of high quality natural black powder in all the different gn and weights/sizes...there is no other manufacturer in South Africa of high quality black powder ...

 

[fourfive8]

fourfive8 , thank you kindly for your feedback it is much appreciated...

NO, NO I am using natural ZAR Black Powder, manufactured here in South Africa Witbank, Mpumalanga by the owner of JS Gunsmith Johan Greyling..

Johan Greyling is the only manufacturer of high quality natural black powder in all the different gn and weights/sizes...there is no other manufacturer in South Africa of high quality black powder ...

Yes, I know you are using ZAR real black powder. Any real bp is much easier to manage than any of the subs similar to Pyrodex. My posts apply to any ml shooting/cleaning including the use of real bp. Still, no matter the propellant type, proper cleaning helps ensure lifelong, damage free shooting/maintaining. Also, I remove the nipple (s) before cleaning. After soapy hot water wash and hot water rinse and dry swabbing the hot barrel, I clean the nipple and nipple seat /flash channel separately. I spray a tiny bit of oil down flash channel using a straw (most aerosol cans have a straw). After the nipple is completely clean and dry, I put a tiny dab of anti-seize on the threads before snugging back into its seat in the breech. The breech plug area and nipple seat area of muzzleloaders are areas prone to accumulate corrosive fouling so need special attention for cleaning and storage prep. Simply swabbing a ml’s bore with cold water after shooting and doing little else, sooner or later, will lead to problems like rust and corrosion in a bore— especially in the breech and nipple seat area.

I own and for years have shot many original, very expensive and impossible to replace original muzzleloaders. I have never rusted, pitted or otherwise damaged one from shooting after doing the cleaning and storage prep as described.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Yes, I know you are using ZAR real black powder. Any real bp is much easier to manage than any of the subs similar to Pyrodex. My posts apply to any ml shooting/cleaning including the use of real bp. Still, no matter the propellant type, proper cleaning helps ensure lifelong, damage free shooting/maintaining. Also, I remove the nipple (s) before cleaning. After soapy hot water wash and hot water rinse and dry swabbing the hot barrel, I clean the nipple and nipple seat /flash channel separately. I spray a tiny bit of oil down flash channel using a straw (most aerosol cans have a straw). After the nipple is completely clean and dry, I put a tiny dab of anti-seize on the threads before snugging back into its seat in the breech. The breech plug area and nipple seat area of muzzleloaders are areas prone to accumulate corrosive fouling so need special attention for cleaning and storage prep. Simply swabbing a ml’s bore with cold water after shooting and doing little else, sooner or later, will lead to problems like rust and corrosion in a bore— especially in the breech and nipple seat area.

I own and for years have shot many original, very expensive and impossible to replace original muzzleloaders. I have never rusted, pitted or otherwise damaged one from shooting after doing the cleaning and storage prep as described.

fourfive8 excellent advice..for sure I will be following your recipe /procedures to clean the Pedersoli SxS muzzle loader....

What I noticed is the following:

While busy having the barrel end with the nipples in hot soap water and pumping the loading jag with a piece of cloth to clean the barrel from sooth the piece of cloth show small holes in a circle type of form....

I presume there are rifling in the left hand barrel that has become extremely sharp , thus the small puncture marks in the piece of cloth ??????

Johan Greyling suggested I use a grooved lead bullet..fit it to the end of the load stick smear it with grinding/buffing paste and work the barrel to smooth out those sharp part of the rifling ..????

Any advice in regards to this phenomenon????

 

[fourfive8]

Some basics I use for all gun maintenance including muzzleloaders. While similar in viscosity I prefer LPS-1 to WD 40 for those type uses, In addition, for maintaining an ml bore during a day’s shooting it’s hard to beat Ballistol based moose milk for swabbing. I even occasionally use Hoppes 9 when shooting a Russian duplex load Products like M-Pro7 that are normally used as a basic gun oil also do a pretty good job of cleaning fouling from bores.

 

[Daryl S]

Africahunting community. I apologise for my language.
Flash rusting happens when using HOT water. In the 70's this was THE recommendation in all BP publications.
I took H&H's recommendation of cold water as gospel and have used it ever since.
I have never used warm water.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Africahunting community. I apologise for my language.
Flash rusting happens when using HOT water. In the 70's this was THE recommendation in all BP publications.
I took H&H's recommendation of cold water as gospel and have used it ever since.
I have never used warm water.

Daryl I can not fault your opinion at all..the cold water with the sunlight liquid dish washing soap product here in South Africa is a effective method ....since the inside of the barrel only need to be rinsed out ...I want to purchase .50 caliber brass brushes to loosen anything that still remains after the washing process .

I am looking forward to the next round of shooting..I went through all the cast bullets in the 360gn weight on the 25meter and 50 meter distances ...now I will be shooting another 25 x maxiball 370gn cast bullets in the next round of shooting groups..I am starting to know my .50 Pedersoli really well and shooting out to 50 meters with the ghost ring really became second nature..I need to imprint the same at 80 meters , every time hitting the 50mm diameter target at 80 meters ..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I did shoot maxiballs and they were accurate but didnt expand

I will make use of softer lead mix casting the bullets

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Africahunting community. I apologise for my language.
Flash rusting happens when using HOT water. In the 70's this was THE recommendation in all BP publications.
I took H&H's recommendation of cold water as gospel and have used it ever since.
I have never used warm water.

Sorry Daryl, I did not see the post where you used foul language .. it seems only words like black powder and Pedersoli grabs my attention...I am sure no harm is done ..the members accept your apologies...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Some basics I use for all gun maintenance including muzzleloaders. While similar in viscosity I prefer LPS-1 to WD 40 for those type uses, In addition, for maintaining an ml bore during a day’s shooting it’s hard to beat Ballistol based moose milk for swabbing. I even occasionally use Hoppes 9 when shooting a Russian duplex load Products like M-Pro7 that are normally used as a basic gun oil also do a pretty good job of cleaning fouling from bores.

View attachment 792142

Yes, we do have WD40 as well as Q10 and Q20 penetrating oil ...I think gearbox oil will be suffice as well??? It is thin and really leaves a very thin layer of protection.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Members while on this subject..what type of lube mix is appropriate to use when you apply it with your fingers onto the cast bullet grooves and not press it through the lubresizing die press????

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I find it enjoyable to apply the lube to the bullet grooves with my hands and fingers. It is enjoyable ..and makes a great part of the nice experience shooting the muzzle loader

 

[Daryl S]

Gert, what are you using for bullet lube?
This can also make or break cast bullet shooting with black powder. Here in B.C. I found. 60%beeswax:40% Vaseline worked beautifuĺly in my BP ctg. rifles as well as in a .45cal. flintlock rifle when testing the 200gr. Lee R.E.A.L. bullets. I was using 80gr. 2F and fired 10shots, then loaded and fired a "cleaning" shot with a .445" round ball, .0215" denim patch lubed with spit(saliva). I was then able to shoot another 10 ACCURATE shots with the slugs. Although the rifle had a 60" rate of twist, these printed into 2, 1" groups of 5ea. at 50yards. I was using a rest, but held the forend in my left hand, the back of which was on a large sand bag.
I would think for African temps, perhaps 50:50 mix would work better.
Any of the comercial BP lubes like Lyman's Black Powder Gold or SPG would work as well. I have used these as well with BP rifles and smokeless powder loads in modern rifles.

 

[Dirtdart]

This is the best I have found at temperatures as low as -20F or in 100+F Namibian November.

 

[Daryl S]

I just saw your last couple posts, Gert.
I apply the BW:VAS lube by scraping the bullet base accross the top of the harened lube(in a plastic bullet box) then spread the lube into the grooves with my fingers. Body heat from the fingers allows the lube to be pushed into the grooves. I found this was easy to learn and didn't take long to become proficient with the method. A lube sizer would be easier, & i would suggest a .501" diameter might be best. The Maxiball's design of huge grease and grooves may be the reason for poor expansion. I have been told the huge grease grooves are the reason for poor expansion.
I would think the Lee R.E.A.L. bullet, with it's tapered design and smaller, finer grooves might be a better bullet, all round.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Gert, what are you using for bullet lube?
This can also make or break cast bullet shooting with black powder. Here in B.C. I found. 60%beeswax:40% Vaseline worked beautifuĺly in my BP ctg. rifles as well as in a .45cal. flintlock rifle when testing the 200gr. Lee R.E.A.L. bullets. I was using 80gr. 2F and fired 10shots, then loaded and fired a "cleaning" shot with a .445" round ball, .0215" denim patch lubed with spit(saliva). I was then able to shoot another 10 ACCURATE shots with the slugs. Although the rifle had a 60" rate of twist, these printed into 2, 1" groups of 5ea. at 50yards. I was using a rest, but held the forend in my left hand, the back of which was on a large sand bag.
I would think for African temps, perhaps 50:50 mix would work better.
Any of the comercial BP lubes like Lyman's Black Powder Gold or SPG would work as well. I have used these as well with BP rifles and smokeless powder loads in modern rifles.

Daryl, I love the SPG product..unfortunately it is easier to get two headed chickens here in South Africa than finding the SPG product....
I assume you heat the beeswax/vaseline and let it cool to a putty form??

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I just saw your last couple posts, Gert.
I apply the BW:VAS lube by scraping the bullet base accross the top of the harened lube(in a plastic bullet box) then spread the lube into the grooves with my fingers. Body heat from the fingers allows the lube to be pushed into the grooves. I found this was easy to learn and didn't take long to become proficient with the method. A lube sizer would be easier, & i would suggest a .501" diameter might be best. The Maxiball's design of huge grease and grooves may be the reason for poor expansion. I have been told the huge grease grooves are the reason for poor expansion.
I would think the Lee R.E.A.L. bullet, with it's tapered design and smaller, finer grooves might be a better bullet, all round.

All the cast bullets I am currently purchasing from The Quarter Master shop here n South Africa, their service is great and the cast bullets are of high quality for sure..the only change I am making to the flat base bullets is to press it through a groove die that Johan Greyling made so it slides better down the barrel..easier and shoots more accurate ..Johan greyling matched the grooves/rifling of the .50 cal Pedersoli barrel ...but I still like to fill the grease grooves by hand ..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Gert, what are you using for bullet lube?
This can also make or break cast bullet shooting with black powder. Here in B.C. I found. 60%beeswax:40% Vaseline worked beautifuĺly in my BP ctg. rifles as well as in a .45cal. flintlock rifle when testing the 200gr. Lee R.E.A.L. bullets. I was using 80gr. 2F and fired 10shots, then loaded and fired a "cleaning" shot with a .445" round ball, .0215" denim patch lubed with spit(saliva). I was then able to shoot another 10 ACCURATE shots with the slugs. Although the rifle had a 60" rate of twist, these printed into 2, 1" groups of 5ea. at 50yards. I was using a rest, but held the forend in my left hand, the back of which was on a large sand bag.
I would think for African temps, perhaps 50:50 mix would work better.
Any of the comercial BP lubes like Lyman's Black Powder Gold or SPG would work as well. I have used these as well with BP rifles and smokeless powder loads in modern rifles.

I like the round ball shooting to clean the barrel...