SOUTH AFRICA: Beware Motshwere Safaris & Outfitters

Philip Glass

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I do believe there is a point to be had here. That is the complete failure of so many outfitters once your trophies are at the taxidermist to follow up on anything. I have said it before this is one of the biggest problems in the safari industry. Sometimes taking well over a year, all dip and pack taxidermy does is salt, dry, and insecticide your trophies and apply for export paperwork. They are very lazy and wait until they have a big batch to do anything and months go by. I have PROOF that it can be done expeditiously! My last safari with @Westfalen Hunting Safaris , after a stern discussion of my displeasure with the dip and pack process of most, John van der Westhuizen got those people off their hind ends and my trophies arrived exactly 30 DAYS from my departure from Africa! Now tell me what can't be done...
Regards,
Philip
 

sbox

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Hey sbox. I stand corrected. You are the guy I've seen at the booth but apparently you aren't the one that got Werner to start coming. My point still stands...

Nope 50by50, sorry again and I'm surly not trying to be rude, but you're mistaken on the year. In 2014, he had two guys, I believe from northern Utah, and I think he brought one of his PHs from RSA that year but I don't recall if he did or if he came alone. So if you talked to me there in 2014 it was during the 10- 15 minutes that my wife and I stopped by to visit with him before continuing on thru the expo.

I've only helped him in his booth the last two years. In 2016, and this year, 2017. And, I certainly wouldn't have been annoyed that someone didn't book because I don't book for him, never have, and probably never will. I'll that I do when there, is visit with people and let them know of my experience's on my two hunts which were fantastic, show them the show packages and tell them some options, tell them my experiences with transporting guns, bow etc , buying airline tickets and all the same questions I had before our first trip. Then if they're interested, I refer them to the PH who explains everything else and does the booking.

And I'm certainly not trying to discredit Mr Courville. He is honestly one of the reasons that I booked in 2013 after talking to him and his wife about their hunt. And then we talked to them both again when we ran into them in 2014 while walking thru the expo. But..... the fact is I did seen him this year, I think on Friday looking at the booth from a distance five different times in a 1-2 hour period, I even waved at him once, not sure if he saw since he turned and walked away, and then after seeing this post last night I just wondered why he didn't come talk to the PH since he had these issues.

And last but not least I notice you live in Highland, so I'm only a few miles north of you and would certainly rather talk in person if you'd like, rather than get in a mud slinging contest. so PM me if you'd like.
 
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sbox

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It looks like you've already emailed them. That's the only email address I have for them.
 
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LivingTheDream

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@sbox thank you for the clarity on role with the organization and you being in the booth with/for Werner.

I still hope the outfitter will reply.
 

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Nope 50by50, sorry again and I'm surly not trying to be rude, but you're mistaken on the year. In 2014, he had two guys, I believe from northern Utah, and I think he brought one of his PHs from RSA that year but I don't recall if he did or if he came alone. So if you talked to me there in 2014 it was during the 10- 15 minutes that my wife and I stopped by to visit with him before continuing on thru the expo.

I've only helped him in his booth the last two years. In 2016, and this year, 2017. And, I certainly wouldn't have been annoyed that someone didn't book because I don't book for him, never have, and probably never will. I'll that I do when there, is visit with people and let them know of my experience's on my two hunts which were fantastic, show them the show packages and tell them some options, tell them my experiences with transporting guns, bow etc , buying airline tickets and all the same questions I had before our first trip. Then if they're interested, I refer them to the PH who explains everything else and does the booking.

And I'm certainly not trying to discredit Mr Courville. He is honestly one of the reasons that I booked in 2013 after talking to him and his wife about their hunt. And then we talked to them both again when we ran into them in 2014 while walking thru the expo. But..... the fact is I did seen him this year, I think on Friday looking at the booth from a distance five different times in a 1-2 hour period, I even waved at him once, not sure if he saw since he turned and walked away, and then after seeing this post last night I just wondered why he didn't come talk to the PH since he had these issues.

And last but not least I notice you live in Highland, so I'm only a few miles north of you and would certainly rather talk in person if you'd like, rather than get in a mud slinging contest. so PM me if you'd like.

Hey sbox-

I just sent you a PM with my phone number but I hope you don't mind if I respond here as well since i may have made some wrong accusations publically earlier.

I booked in 2013 so if that was not you with Werner in the booth that year, then I'm confusing you with someone else. It was the year he had that huge banner of the croc hanging by his booth. From your last message, it sounds like it wasn't you...?

If that's the case, I apologize for linking you to two incidents I found distasteful with that individual, which, if I'm being honest with myself, has made me more willing to call you out on what I perceived as an overstep on a public forum.

You may have seen him 5 times and waved at him but your telling of that in your first message came across as a slight to his courage, credibility and appeared like an attempt to make him look silly to everyone in this forum so his complaint would carry less validity.

You may not have meant it that way and I don't know the guy but after reading his experience I don't know that I disbelieve him.

Werner is a nice guy. He's personable, remembers my wife every time we talk, and I do think he wants to keep all his commitments and run a good operation.

After hunting with him however, I don't know that I would personally recommend him.

This deserves an explanation. Ive never share this before.

In 2013, besidss a killer deal, I booked with him over another outfitter because he told me four things: (That pushed me over the edge)

1- he would be my personal PH

2- my dad and I would be the only guys in camp and we would have exclusivity to 75,000 acres of tribal land

3- he would have my hunt video'd so he could make a bow hunting advertising video (I would be able to piggy back off this and get the footage)

4- anything I shot that wasn't Roland ward I didn't pay for (yes- this was on the contract signed by Werner although I wasn't planning on holding him to that unless he, as my PH, told me to shoot something super small. But it IS on my contract)

Sbox, not ONE of those commitments happened.

Here's what did happen:

1- he was my PH for the last two days because I was missing so many of my primary animals and was rather... pissed.

2- when my dad and I arrived there was a group in camp. They left two days later and the next day a HUGE family group from Idaho came in. They were rifle hunting and Werner was putting me in blinds for the afternoon hunt that had been hunted with a rifle (with shots fired) in the morning!

A day or two later ANOTHER group (2 hunters from UT) came in to hunt!

I spoke to Werner about our agreement and how I didn't want to be bow hunting over water that had been hunted by a rifle that morning or the previous day and he listened and tried to make it better by organizing ME to go hunt other neighbors little concessions.

This was not the agreement but Werner couldn't take his big group anywhere else (and they were shooting a grundle of animals so on a financial level- it made sense to keep them happy).

I felt like I had been bait and switched.... Okay- let's be honest. Regardless of his intention- I had been bait and switched.

3- With everything else going on I didn't even bring this up... neither did Werner.

4- Werner didn't bring it up and neither did I until the end of the hunt when I got the bill and didn't agree with some things that were surprises. At that point I did bring it up and we went the rounds a bit before coming to an agreement.

I know this message is way too long but I did want to say Werner did some kind things as well. My dads PH yelled "shoot" at some gemsbok running flat out at 150 yards and when he drew blood the owner of the little concession charged Werner for it. But Werner let my dad go on his big concession and shoot another one. He lucked out BIG time and shot a 41" gemsbok!

Werner allowed me to stay and hunt longer than the original 11 days so I was there a full 2 weeks hunting without paying any additional daily rate. (This was negotiated at the time of booking but still cool)

He had great quality on his big concession. I took a 14" warthog and 31" waterbuck before getting shunted to the small neighboring properties.

About the time I was moved off the tribal land, the full moon hit so the screeching halt of my hunt is likely due, in part, to that although at the time I could only see the correlation of moving to tiny neighbors parcels as the reason. At least I got some action on the animals that sleep at night because they were the only things coming in to water!

All in all- I would have hunted with someone else had I had the choice over and I do think Werner says things sometimes that he either doesn't remember or later feels he has to go back on-

But that doesn't make it okay. And for that reason I doubt I would refer a friend to hunt with him.

I know my experience isn't everyone's but to your original comment about some people you just can't make happy- I've since been to Africa 2x and both those experiences were fabulous- so my opinion is that an outfitter can make nearly all their clients happy if they keep their commitments.
 

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Why would anyone book with this guy after reading this. There are 100s of guys on the sidelines who would love a chance to have clients and treat them properly.
 

sbox

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Hey sbox-

I just sent you a PM with my phone number but I hope you don't mind if I respond here as well since i may have made some wrong accusations publically earlier.

I booked in 2013 so if that was not you with Werner in the booth that year, then I'm confusing you with someone else. It was the year he had that huge banner of the croc hanging by his booth. From your last message, it sounds like it wasn't you...?

If that's the case, I apologize for linking you to two incidents I found distasteful with that individual, which, if I'm being honest with myself, has made me more willing to call you out on what I perceived as an overstep on a public forum.

You may have seen him 5 times and waved at him but your telling of that in your first message came across as a slight to his courage, credibility and appeared like an attempt to make him look silly to everyone in this forum so his complaint would carry less validity.

You may not have meant it that way and I don't know the guy but after reading his experience I don't know that I disbelieve him.

Werner is a nice guy. He's personable, remembers my wife every time we talk, and I do think he wants to keep all his commitments and run a good operation.

After hunting with him however, I don't know that I would personally recommend him.

This deserves an explanation. Ive never share this before.

In 2013, besidss a killer deal, I booked with him over another outfitter because he told me four things: (That pushed me over the edge)

1- he would be my personal PH

2- my dad and I would be the only guys in camp and we would have exclusivity to 75,000 acres of tribal land

3- he would have my hunt video'd so he could make a bow hunting advertising video (I would be able to piggy back off this and get the footage)

4- anything I shot that wasn't Roland ward I didn't pay for (yes- this was on the contract signed by Werner although I wasn't planning on holding him to that unless he, as my PH, told me to shoot something super small. But it IS on my contract)

Sbox, not ONE of those commitments happened.

Here's what did happen:

1- he was my PH for the last two days because I was missing so many of my primary animals and was rather... pissed.

2- when my dad and I arrived there was a group in camp. They left two days later and the next day a HUGE family group from Idaho came in. They were rifle hunting and Werner was putting me in blinds for the afternoon hunt that had been hunted with a rifle (with shots fired) in the morning!

A day or two later ANOTHER group (2 hunters from UT) came in to hunt!

I spoke to Werner about our agreement and how I didn't want to be bow hunting over water that had been hunted by a rifle that morning or the previous day and he listened and tried to make it better by organizing ME to go hunt other neighbors little concessions.

This was not the agreement but Werner couldn't take his big group anywhere else (and they were shooting a grundle of animals so on a financial level- it made sense to keep them happy).

I felt like I had been bait and switched.... Okay- let's be honest. Regardless of his intention- I had been bait and switched.

3- With everything else going on I didn't even bring this up... neither did Werner.

4- Werner didn't bring it up and neither did I until the end of the hunt when I got the bill and didn't agree with some things that were surprises. At that point I did bring it up and we went the rounds a bit before coming to an agreement.

I know this message is way too long but I did want to say Werner did some kind things as well. My dads PH yelled "shoot" at some gemsbok running flat out at 150 yards and when he drew blood the owner of the little concession charged Werner for it. But Werner let my dad go on his big concession and shoot another one. He lucked out BIG time and shot a 41" gemsbok!

Werner allowed me to stay and hunt longer than the original 11 days so I was there a full 2 weeks hunting without paying any additional daily rate. (This was negotiated at the time of booking but still cool)

He had great quality on his big concession. I took a 14" warthog and 31" waterbuck before getting shunted to the small neighboring properties.

About the time I was moved off the tribal land, the full moon hit so the screeching halt of my hunt is likely due, in part, to that although at the time I could only see the correlation of moving to tiny neighbors parcels as the reason. At least I got some action on the animals that sleep at night because they were the only things coming in to water!

All in all- I would have hunted with someone else had I had the choice over and I do think Werner says things sometimes that he either doesn't remember or later feels he has to go back on-

But that doesn't make it okay. And for that reason I doubt I would refer a friend to hunt with him.

I know my experience isn't everyone's but to your original comment about some people you just can't make happy- I've since been to Africa 2x and both those experiences were fabulous- so my opinion is that an outfitter can make nearly all their clients happy if they keep their commitments.



50by50,
I just got your PM and will give you a call today, thanks for sending your number. The year they had the big croc poster hanging from the pillar, I believe was the same year that my wife and I booked with him, which was Feb 2013.

We’ll talk about this on the phone, so I’m typing this for the others following this tread since this will probably be my last post on this thread.

As I’ve mentioned earlier, I didn’t mean to sound like I was discrediting Mr Courville. I just thought it very strange, that the same day I personally observed him so close and so many times looking at the booth but never coming by to talk. And then it struck me even more strange when I read his posting that same night about his complaints. I rarely come to this website and did so only when a guy at the expo, suggested I post the three SCI animals we shot, and that's when I found his thread. If it were me, I repeat, this is just what I personally would have done. I would have been standing at the expos doors that first day and the minute they opened it to the public I would have been the first one at their booth to talk with him, and it’s a fair bet that most of you would have done the same.

And last but not least, I can’t comment on your your hunt since it’s not my business to do so. But as a fellow hunter, I feel bad that you have not received your stuff back from the dip and pack. They’re the same people handling our trophies, and we’re expecting them sometime this summer. I know that another friend of ours, who hunted with him last April 2016, have theirs back and they told me that everything was in great shape. Which is what one, should expect. They also rebooked this weekend to go back and hunt with him.

Both of my experiences with Werner have been more than what my wife and I could have ever expected. I wish I could afford to go back numerous times like the majority of his clients do and my wife feels the same way. I also know that in the past two years at the expo I have talked to an amazing large number of his clients who are obviously been 100% satisfied with their hunts, as well as their returned trophies because they're rebooking hunts with him.

I’m at work but will give you a call this morning after a short meeting I have, lets say by 1030am.
 

Lrntolive

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Thanks @BRICKBURN and @Jerome for contacting the outfitter and posting as you did.

I feel this posting is being hijacked by two other people that shouldn't have any business going back and forth about an experience at some show. Let's get back to the original post and have the outfitter respond to it.

The purpose of this post is being lost and attention being redirected.
 

50by50

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Thanks @BRICKBURN and @Jerome for contacting the outfitter and posting as you did.

I feel this posting is being hijacked by two other people that shouldn't have any business going back and forth about an experience at some show. Let's get back to the original post and have the outfitter respond to it.

The purpose of this post is being lost and attention being redirected.

Okay... ouch
 

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Sadly, @50by50 has had the almost identical experience as the OP. That is pretty well spot on.
The devil is in the details....
 

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Sadly, @50by50 has had the almost identical experience as the OP. That is pretty well spot on.
The devil is in the details....

Yep and the old thread Royal referenced doesn't reflect highly on this outfitter either. Everyone should read that one as well.

@50by50 I appreciate the detailed explanation you have made as to why you could not recommend Werner. Your list of reasons was big and in my opinion reason enough to warn others. Let the buyer be ware!
 

Lrntolive

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Okay... ouch
@50by50

Not trying to put you down, but the original poster nor the outfitter has posted since the discussion started about the meeting at the show.

If you have a report to post, then by all means post it in another thread. Everyone will get the picture as the threads will be back to back.

I think you posting another hunt report has more weight than adding to this one.
 

Royal27

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I've got no issue with @50by50 posting here. Not only do I think it's appropriate, but if this is where he's comfortable then awesome.

I'd much rather the post be here than not at all. I often wonder for everyone of these that gets posted how many don't , simply because of concern over criticism.
 

Lrntolive

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I've got no issue with @50by50 posting here. Not only do I think it's appropriate, but if this is where he's comfortable then awesome.

I'd much rather the post be here than not at all. I often wonder for everyone of these that gets posted how many don't , simply because of concern over criticism.
I didn't have a problem with the original posting of disappointment with his hunt, but then it turned into this discussion about who saw who at some show. Let's stick to the original topic.

Anyway, I've had much to drink. Let's get on with it.
 
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Royal27

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50by50

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@Lrntolive-

Your last post made me laugh! Now I know where the filter went! :whistle:

No problem man. I'm not offended and I wish my posts hadn't annoyed you. We've had some good comments to each other in the past and I think of you guys as friends.

Royal hit in on the head- I wouldn't have brought it up on my own so an additional thread would never have happened. After reading about the other guys issues, I felt like I needed to speak out, as a regular guy on here (vs a guy that potentially just signed up to make this one post and for all we know hasn't been back on here) to be another voice of caution.

I can see where it did degrade a bit when I made an ass of myself with sbox by attributing to him some things he didn't do and because of that I felt I needed to keep it on the public forum to kind of clear his name.

(Incidentally he lives about two miles from me and I know exactly what house he loves in! Small world. We don't agree perfectly on motshwere but we had a great conversation today)

Anyway- drink up Lrntolive! I'm glad we're still friends!
 

Lrntolive

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@50by50, never ever be worried about starting your own thread on here with all of us, good or bad.

If there's one thing we're all good for, it's two cents! Ha!
 

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My apologies to Sbox.....my post was directed towards 50by50!

Sorry for any misunderstanding!
 

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My apologies to Sbox.....my post was directed towards 50by50!

Sorry for any misunderstanding!

You pointed out your mistake and I am happy to give you a mulligan.

You can quote the person's post you are trying to reply to and then go from there.
 

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Hey sbox-

I just looked up the 3 animals you posted and I remember you quite well from 2014 when I booked the hunt. I don't know if you remember but I came by several times to chat until you got a bit annoyed I wasn't signing up. It was early on in the show and up to that point I don't think you had sold many safaris. I did end up booking with Werner in spite of how you were acting.

If I remember correctly you told me you were the one that convinced Werner to come to the SLC show and it was your and your buddies trophies on display. I remember the neat carvings you had someone do in the tusks from your warthog It has sure worked out well for Werner so I'm sure he appreciates that you got him to come. Your "testimonial" on behalf of Motshwere makes me wonder what you get out of this help.

Regardless- my issue on this message is not with Werner. I am cautiously optimistic Werner will take care of my issue IF some of my trophies have been damaged in the 2.5 years I've been waiting for them to come. Hopefully it's as upfront as it appears and not like the other fellow on here that got invited back and then upsold. At this point, I don't have a problem there. I do have a problem with it taking 2.5 years....

And I'll admit I have a big problem with how you are attempting to discredit Mr. Courville in your post above. To share your story and your great experience is one thing and, appropriate, even if you only get on here once every 3 years when Motshwere is under attack (I read your other post a few years ago when Motshwere was getting blasted... I think it was on this site... where you stuck up for him).

What is inappropriate and offensive (and can I say "more than odd"), at least to me, is your comments about Mr. Courville being seen by you on 5 different occasions hiding and slinking around your booth, watching, hiding, but too afraid to come address his problem.

If someone painted me as a coward on a public forum I would take serious offense. Probably enough to look you up. So to keep things on the up and up can I suggest you stick to facts and not apply intent to what you think you see?

50x50:

I am the one you should have been referring to in the above post. I am glad to clarify a few things, and dispute some of your assumptions.

I am the person who initially invited Werner to the Expo several years back. To clarify, you said that I was a "bit annoyed" with you. I will take you for your word and if I was annoyed, I apologize. This is not how I generally am in these types of situations.
You also stated that I "convinced" Werner to come to Salt Lake. I made the invitation, as a friend who appreciated his hunt with Motshwere.
As far as my "Testimonial" on behalf of Motshwere, I do not really appreciate you making the assumption that I am getting something out of this. I have never asked for
any payback from Werner. I have been twice and hunted with him, and paid in full to our agreement.

You suggested in the above post for the said person to "stick to the facts". This is actually some great advice.

I have hunted twice with Werner and have had a great time.

I am more than happy to respond to a PM.
 

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