Small and fast or big and slow?

[Betterinthebush]

Sounds like you got a lot on the line. You nervous or feeling good right about now?

I took the under. I’m nervous.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Is the pelvic girdle shot like a Texas heart shot? If so it works with a bow to

Not exactly, think of it like ripping the handbrake on a car. You’re removing their means of locomotion since the pelvis supports a majority of the weight and body’s core. Even hitting/disabling one side breaks a target down stability wise anchoring them in place.

It’s essentially what you or your PH tries to do when taking a going away shot on an elephant, buffalo or other animal. You’re aiming to hit the ball of the hip socket and/or the pelvic bone removing all function. Many times in doing this you also strike the femoral artery, or the bone fragments from the hip/femur sever it. Whereas a Texas Heart shot is intended to send the bullet through the muscles of the rear end, the stomach/guts into the vitals without hitting bone or anything solid that could impede penetration.

To go down the rabbit hole
Death (human or animal) from a bullet or broadhead will be a result of exsanguination, central nervous system failure/shutdown, asphyxiation (hemopneumothorax), organ failure, or sepsis/infection. Aside from a CNS all of the others take time and allow for the target to move or hide. A shot like this stops or anchors the target in place often allowing for rapid exsanguination.

A bow shot to the ham/hip is very effective due to striking/severing the femoral and/or breaking a major limb needed for walking and body support. Big bullet/broadhed = big hole and more blood loss. Whit it’s so effective on a deer with a bow, if you ever watch when a deer or other animal ducks the string on a bow shot, their chest and front legs drop to the ground first, while their rear legs often stay planted so they can load-up and pivot off them. Handguns and archery for example create no hydrostatic shock. Rifles lose that effect after velocities drop below a certain point. Hydrostatic shock is the theory that Roy Weatherby was chasing.

 

[DLSJR]

How much wider is the bull then the cow? That is the test of the bullet, not the weight and height.

The bullet doesn't go through total mass, it goes should to shoulder.

@AckleyHunter Do you like to debate simply to argue? You’re either debating to amuse yourself, or you’re kinda dense

 

[mark-hunter]

In my opinion, the main quality of a hunter is the skill he possesses. It does not matter whether he is hunting in Africa or Lapland, or whether it is the first or last day of hunting.

The hunter is the weakest point in the chain of safari business.

There are hunters with skill and hunters without skill.
And no vetting.

Everybody on safari is proffesional: Outfitter, PH, tracker, skinner, cook, and laundry lady.
If they were lousy in their job, they would loose the job.
They are filtered and vetted by practice and experience.

A newbie safari hunter, comes in, and buys his first safari.
He is maybe educated on his local deer hunts and you tube high velocity frenzy.

He comes in camp, and PH sees him for the first time.
This is the picture.

What do you think, where the risk rests?
On PH or on the hunters skill and his choice of firearm?

Luckily, there are laws these days that evolved with historically developed collective knowledge and common sense.
In simplified terms, those laws evolved in "bigger is better" (John Pondoro Taylor theory), rather then smaller and faster is better (WDM Bell, and Roy Weatherby theory).

And those laws will define minimum calibers for specific animal.
That defines the rifle.

Then, comes the skill:

After the laws, then there is good business practice where PH will take a new client to the range, to check his skill.

It is not only the target they will look at, but entire process of gun handling till shot is fired.

Then, PH will determine, how to manage the hunt with client in following days, shooting distances, approach, and stalk. And even the gun carry.
"Sir, my tracker will carry a rifle for you". means client is not too skilled in safe gun handling. etc... But it is polite, and non offensive.
Cannot be taken in bad way.

Now, these days - when we really know everything about terminal ballistics, there are stories that are recycled from generation to generation, proving velocity effect is limited.

Two stories come to mind. Nosler and moose strory. And mr Grey and lion story.

Here is moose story.

And here is mr Grey and the Lion story. 280 Ross, high velocity cartridge. This is short version from rifle magazine. This ended tragically and had nothing to do with skill.

Those two stories are the ones most oftenly described and most repeated by modern authors (who love to recycle the old truths), becasue it involved famous characters in history, and infulenced the industry.

Nosler started the first premium bullet production in USA.
And mr Grey and the lion story ended the 280 Ross rifle as sporting rifle.

Moral of both stories, speed does not always penetrate and skill, does not always help.
Both hunters hit their animals. The animals were LARGE AND TOUGH.

Yes, today there are better bullets, premium bullets. But somehow, the laws tend to follow bigger is better for various types of animals, especially on DG list.

Bigger hole bleeds better.

Now what the professionals use (read: profis with skill)?

I put on this forum somewhere an article about PH and their guns.
The article was published in Gun Digest annual edition few years ago.
Most common calibers used by professionals: 375 H&H, 458 win mag, 404 jeff, plus few others in break action double rifles.

Try to find that article on the forum. Use the advanced search function with key words and my nick.

 

[Carcajou]

Hello, my grandfather used to tell me that on the farm, we’d kill the pig with a heavy hammer—and definitely not with a glazier’s hammer. He wasn’t wrong.


If we look at the work of major projectile manufacturers—whether using monometallic or lead bullets—the optimal velocities range from 650 to 450, or even 400 m/s. It’s up to you to determine, based on the caliber you’re using, at what distance this equation holds true—of course, depending on the game you’re hunting and the habitat. That’s my humble opinion. So, since I only hunt on Earth—I haven’t been teleported to another world yet—here are my calibers: .22 LR for the backyard, .308 from 100 to 900 m for target practice. 9.3x62 and .74R for anything that moves from 5 to 250 meters, and .338 for European game, but from 150 to 450 meters.

 

[Miletic]

I’m

sure all of the above probably matter. But what I’m saying is if you use a solid on a small thin skinned animal and don’t hit bone it will zip straight through. Big thick animals that need deep penetration is the main reason for using solids to hunt certain dg. And many ph’s don’t recommend them for anything but pachyderms with the modern bullets available. Spomer tried to use the example of his possible bad shot on an impala with a 375 300gr solid as a reason that energy is not important. There is a video on YouTube is two guys hitting a coyote at exactly 1000yards at the same time one used a 243 with a 115 dtac and the other a 338 lapua with a 300gr smk and they hit the kill zone on one shot with the lapua and the front shoulder with the 243 and he ran like hell. They had to shoot again to finish him. I’d imagine if they had hit a mule deer or elk that bullet would have dropped them or atleast killed them quick. But a 30lb song dog the speed was low enough and the animal thin enough to let the bullet pass right through. A hole in the vitals will result in a dead animal one way or another. But as you said many factors contribute to a animal dying quickly.

I absolutely agree

 

[Miletic]

The hunter is the weakest point in the chain of safari business.

There are hunters with skill and hunters without skill.
And no vetting.

Everybody on safari is proffesional: Outfitter, PH, tracker, skinner, cook, and laundry lady.
If they were lousy in their job, they would loose the job.
They are filtered and vetted by practice and experience.

A newbie safari hunter, comes in, and buys his first safari.
He is maybe educated on his local deer hunts and you tube high velocity frenzy.

He comes in camp, and PH sees him for the first time.
This is the picture.

What do you think, where the risk rests?
On PH or on the hunters skill and his choice of firearm?

Luckily, there are laws these days that evolved with historically developed collective knowledge and common sense.
In simplified terms, those laws evolved in "bigger is better" (John Pondoro Taylor theory), rather then smaller and faster is better (WDM Bell, and Roy Weatherby theory).

And those laws will define minimum calibers for specific animal.
That defines the rifle.

Then, comes the skill:

After the laws, then there is good business practice where PH will take a new client to the range, to check his skill.

It is not only the target they will look at, but entire process of gun handling till shot is fired.

Then, PH will determine, how to manage the hunt with client in following days, shooting distances, approach, and stalk. And even the gun carry.
"Sir, my tracker will carry a rifle for you". means client is not too skilled in safe gun handling. etc... But it is polite, and non offensive.
Cannot be taken in bad way.

Now, these days - when we really know everything about terminal ballistics, there are stories that are recycled from generation to generation, proving velocity effect is limited.

Two stories come to mind. Nosler and moose strory. And mr Grey and lion story.

Here is moose story.
View attachment 785664



And here is mr Grey and the Lion story. 280 Ross, high velocity cartridge. This is short version from rifle magazine. This ended tragically and had nothing to do with skill.


View attachment 785665

Those two stories are the ones most oftenly described and most repeated by modern authors (who love to recycle the old truths), becasue it involved famous characters in history, and infulenced the industry.

Nosler started the first premium bullet production in USA.
And mr Grey and the lion story ended the 280 Ross rifle as sporting rifle.

Moral of both stories, speed does not always penetrate and skill, does not always help.
Both hunters hit their animals. The animals were LARGE AND TOUGH.

Yes, today there are better bullets, premium bullets. But somehow, the laws tend to follow bigger is better for various types of animals, especially on DG list.

Bigger hole bleeds better.

Now what the professionals use (read: profis with skill)?

I put on this forum somewhere an article about PH and their guns.
The article was published in Gun Digest annual edition few years ago.
Most common calibers used by professionals: 375 H&H, 458 win mag, 404 jeff, plus few others in break action double rifles.

Try to find that article on the forum. Use the advanced search function with key words and my nick.

Dear Mark, I agree with most of what you said. As a hunter who has several safaris behind him and hunted big five animals, you are one of the most experienced on this forum, so your opinion must be respected. But...
First of all, I thank you for these two stories. Although I knew them from before, I think they have a place in this story.
However...
I personally think that the 300 H&H with a regular SP 180gr projectile will not stop any mud on the animal's body. Likewise, I do not dispute that a lighter grain of SP will be less effective because it will lose weight as it passes through all the obstacles to the vital organs.
But that brings us back to the skill of the one who hunts. I also consider the selection of equipment for hunting a particular animal to be a skill.
I don't know the .280 Ross caliber, and I don't like to talk about things I'm not sure about. But…
A lion charging at a hunter is not easy to hit, so even if it is at 10yds. I strongly doubt that the 280 Ross with any grain would not stop the lion if it was hit in the head (logically, it runs towards the hunter), so I think that Mr. Gray did not hit the animal at all, or he did with some peripheral shots.

We clearly differ in approach, you and Mr. Pandoro are supporters of heavier and wider, Roy and me are supporters of speed.

 

[mark-hunter]

You will see my dear, you will see.

 

[mark-hunter]

Here it is, mr Miletic.

On this thread, post number 39. Link below.
I am sure you did not try to find.

Simple question for you, find me one "fast and light" caliber used by most famous professional hunters.
There is only between 100 and 200 options, easy to scroll through the list,

Find me one!

Professionals chose reliable.
Some clients chose fashionable.

But, when necessary PH cleans up their mess. (or die trying)

Here is the list of proper tools, post no 39.
Find me one, fast and light.

Easy peasy.

Post in thread 'What gun do Professional Hunters like to use?'

Oct 17, 2021

Ok, boys (and gals), the question what gun PH's use, is no longer a mistery.

They run a research on that and published an investigative article in next issue of Gun digest 2022.

So here is the inventory of rifles of most renown professional hunters.
458 win mag is most common, as it looks like.

Sorry for blurred pictures but this is best I could do. It is still readable.

(unfortunately there is no more function for forum member to enlarge photos, as if was before on previous forum setting when attaching them to post - or maybe I am just missing something )...

• mark-hunter

• 
• 

 

[mark-hunter]

Now, mr Miletic, since the day of your safari is approaching faster then you think, I take it my duty and obligation to correct the errors of your ways.

So, you made me to dig into my library, to bring more historical cases.

In next case, in the following, this is the story of Hyena, 220 swift, 470 double, Robert Ruark and Harry Selby.
Book, "Horn of the hunter"

And here, we are talking about Hyena, not buffalo.

I urge you to read in full, especially harry Selby Comments on fashionable clients with pee shooters:

 

[AZDAVE]

Chose what you want. But don't be surprised if the light and fast bullet blows up on a eland, wildebeest, zebra, gemsbok and you HAVE Now STARTED A VERY LONG TRACKING JOB FOR YOUR PH and Tracker.

I always find it interesting that folks really don't do the external ballistics on their setup.
Example.
26 nosler, 140 gr accubond, 3200 FPS drop at 200 2.35inches
375 H&H, 270gr hornaday, 2700fps drop at 200 3.6 inches
458 WM, 450gr CEB, 2300 fps drop at 200 6.3inches

Every one from above examples 0-200 you are aiming at hair.

In my opinon
26 nosler great for blesbok and smaller and long range shots
375, anything in the PG and Buffalo
458, anything that walks

More modern bullets have improved and made rifles more effective. However many of the small cal bullets are more designed for paper and steel and just aren't tough enough for game. So if you are using a smaller cal (30 and less) pick a true hunting bullet that is up to the job. Have helped track and put down to many animals that friends sot with the Great wiz bang stuff the latest gun writer touts as the new miracle round or bullet.

 

[Miletic]

Here it is, mr Miletic.

On this thread, post number 39. Link below.
I am sure you did not try to find.

Simple question for you, find me one "fast and light" caliber used by most famous professional hunters.
There is only between 100 and 200 options, easy to scroll through the list,

Find me one!

Professionals chose reliable.
Some clients chose fashionable.

But, when necessary PH cleans up their mess. (or die trying)

Here is the list of proper tools, post no 39.
Find me one, fast and light.

Easy peasy.

Post in thread 'What gun do Professional Hunters like to use?'

Oct 17, 2021

Ok, boys (and gals), the question what gun PH's use, is no longer a mistery.

They run a research on that and published an investigative article in next issue of Gun digest 2022.

So here is the inventory of rifles of most renown professional hunters.
458 win mag is most common, as it looks like.

Sorry for blurred pictures but this is best I could do. It is still readable.

(unfortunately there is no more function for forum member to enlarge photos, as if was before on previous forum setting when attaching them to post - or maybe I am just missing something )...

• mark-hunter

• 
• 

Ok, here we see the calibers, but the bullets weights they use are not listed

 

[Miletic]

Now, mr Miletic, since the day of your safari is approaching faster then you think, I take it my duty and obligation to correct the errors of your ways.

So, you made me to dig into my library, to bring more historical cases.

In next case, in the following, this is the story of Hyena, 220 swift, 470 double, Robert Ruark and Harry Selby.
Book, "Horn of the hunter"

And here, we are talking about Hyena, not buffalo.

I urge you to read in full, especially harry Selby Comments on fashionable clients with pee shooters:

View attachment 785708View attachment 785709View attachment 785710

I don't know about the .220 Swift, but I don't think there is a hyena that my 243win wouldn't kill reasonably quickly (or instantly).

 

[mark-hunter]

Oh, my god!
Hope @Bob Nelson 35Whelen will not see this!

 

[grand veneur]

Ok, here we see the calibers, but the bullets weights they use are not listed

The vast majority of the older PH used factory loads, which in the past were consistently loaded with the same heavy, somewhat slower bullets. The British, in particular, were always concerned about overpressure in hot climates and therefore placed great importance on so-called "tropical loads." The only choice back then was between SP and FMJ bullets, but many things were not viewed as strictly as they are today, and the bullets were also not comparable to that we use nowadays. Everything from the past needs to be viewed with a degree of critical distance, especially what is reported in the various books. None of us was there to verify and confirm any of it.

We can often nowadays achieve similar results with slightly smaller calibers and lighter, but strong designed bullets with a higher muzzle velocity, like the PH in the past who used very big bore rifles in the past. You have to form by experience your own opinion about which cartridges are involved, because for many reasons no discussion on a Forum will lead to a consensus. Far too often, things are asserted with absolute conviction, and no other opinions or even personal experience are accepted.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

I don't know about the .220 Swift, but I don't think there is a hyena that my 243win wouldn't kill reasonably quickly (or instantly).

With the right bullet such as bonded fusion or TSX for example, I would expect the 243 to work as well. However, the 220 Swift running a 110g bullet is not any faster than a 90g 243 and might even be a few fps slower depending on the load. Ruark's and Selby's poor results with the 220 Swift is driven in part by the bullets available in the 1950's being only traditional cup n core type and the fact that the 220 swift was developed as a varmint round and as such the jacket thickness was very light and the bullets very frangible. I would not hunt true big game with either one using varmint bullets.

All that said, I have been toying with booking a hunt for croc. This would require a precise shot at 100y or a bit longer into the reptile's brain. I had considered my 243 as one available option for this job since it is the most accurate centerfire rifle that I own due in part to being equipped with a 5-25x scope. But, I also have a 7mm mag that is almost as accurate which would have to do a better job. I also have a 30-06 with similar accuracy which would also be suitable. Finally, one of my 375's is capable of sub moa precision as well and would work. I do not buy the BS argument that the 243 is most accurate because it is the lightest of recoil. I am not very recoil sensitive and shoot the 375 almost as well but it has only a 1-6x scope which is a small handicap to long range precision shooting. The 243 is best because it is in a very well set up Sako S20 precision rifle with a quality precision optic using high grade ammo. If it was a Mossberg hunting rifle with a old Leupold VXII 3-9x it would be lucky to print 2" groups at 100y instead of the 1/2" groups at 200y that I usually see from the Sako.

Hyena is not a timid animal and are very tough but they are still flesh and bone and do not possess armor plated shoulders. Shoot it with a proper bullet and it will die.

As a final aside - I once shot a deer with a 130g Nosler ballistic tip from my 270 and hit it poorly. It was a frontal shot that went high to the left and impacted the tip of the shoulder joint and blew up causing a gruesome wound that skirted above the ribcage along the side of the spine and never penetrated the vitals except for one small fragment of copper jacket material that pierced one lung. The deer died but only after having ran for more than 400y and required a 3hr tracking job to recover. In my book it was a total failure. Up to that point the Noslers had produced a perfect record of 1 shot kills on deer for me but were all nicely placed broadside shots. I have since learned a lot about bullet design and applications and would never deploy a Ballistic tip cup and core bullet for that sort of shot ever again. Not saying a better bullet would have worked better in my case but it would not have fragmented like the Nosler did.

 

[Miletic]

The vast majority of the older PH used factory loads, which in the past were consistently loaded with the same heavy, somewhat slower bullets. The British, in particular, were always concerned about overpressure in hot climates and therefore placed great importance on so-called "tropical loads." The only choice back then was between SP and FMJ bullets, but many things were not viewed as strictly as they are today, and the bullets were also not comparable to that we use nowadays. Everything from the past needs to be viewed with a degree of critical distance, especially what is reported in the various books. None of us was there to verify and confirm any of it.

We can often nowadays achieve similar results with slightly smaller calibers and lighter, but strong designed bullets with a higher muzzle velocity, like the PH in the past who used very big bore rifles in the past. You have to form by experience your own opinion about which cartridges are involved, because for many reasons no discussion on a Forum will lead to a consensus. Far too often, things are asserted with absolute conviction, and no other opinions or even personal experience are accepted.

I totally agree. With all you wrote here

 

[Miletic]

With the right bullet such as bonded fusion or TSX for example, I would expect the 243 to work as well. However, the 220 Swift running a 110g bullet is not any faster than a 90g 243 and might even be a few fps slower depending on the load. Ruark's and Selby's poor results with the 220 Swift is driven in part by the bullets available in the 1950's being only traditional cup n core type and the fact that the 220 swift was developed as a varmint round and as such the jacket thickness was very light and the bullets very frangible. I would not hunt true big game with either one using varmint bullets.

All that said, I have been toying with booking a hunt for croc. This would require a precise shot at 100y or a bit longer into the reptile's brain. I had considered my 243 as one available option for this job since it is the most accurate centerfire rifle that I own due in part to being equipped with a 5-25x scope. But, I also have a 7mm mag that is almost as accurate which would have to do a better job. I also have a 30-06 with similar accuracy which would also be suitable. Finally, one of my 375's is capable of sub moa precision as well and would work. I do not buy the BS argument that the 243 is most accurate because it is the lightest of recoil. I am not very recoil sensitive and shoot the 375 almost as well but it has only a 1-6x scope which is a small handicap to long range precision shooting. The 243 is best because it is in a very well set up Sako S20 precision rifle with a quality precision optic using high grade ammo. If it was a Mossberg hunting rifle with a old Leupold VXII 3-9x it would be lucky to print 2" groups at 100y instead of the 1/2" groups at 200y that I usually see from the Sako.

Hyena is not a timid animal and are very tough but they are still flesh and bone and do not possess armor plated shoulders. Shoot it with a proper bullet and it will die.

As a final aside - I once shot a deer with a 130g Nosler ballistic tip from my 270 and hit it poorly. It was a frontal shot that went high to the left and impacted the tip of the shoulder joint and blew up causing a gruesome wound that skirted above the ribcage along the side of the spine and never penetrated the vitals except for one small fragment of copper jacket material that pierced one lung. The deer died but only after having ran for more than 400y and required a 3hr tracking job to recover. In my book it was a total failure. Up to that point the Noslers had produced a perfect record of 1 shot kills on deer for me but were all nicely placed broadside shots. I have since learned a lot about bullet design and applications and would never deploy a Ballistic tip cup and core bullet for that sort of shot ever again. Not saying a better bullet would have worked better in my case but it would not have fragmented like the Nosler did.

I would love to see a pic of you catching a crocodile with the 243. I totally agree with the 220 Swift story. At the time when the story that Mark Hunter published takes place, the 220 was exclusively a varminter and with such ammunition it was by no means suitable for hunting large game. It happens that projectiles break up to high speeds, but this is rare. As you just said, you caught a lot of deer with the Ballistic tipuntil you hit this one badly. It happens to all of us. There isn't a single bullet design in the world that hasn't reacted badly when hit

 

[Miletic]

Oh, my god!
Hope @Bob Nelson 35Whelen will not see this!

I'm just waiting for you to write:
“you have to grow up!!
Strat using the weapons that the big boys have for hunting”

 

[mark-hunter]

Nay....

I am.just waiting for my chance to tell you, 'I told you so, but yiu wouldnt listen"

haha

Eventually you will grow up one day, and come to my terms.
Haha