Should I Fire This SxS Shotgun

That is very nice case color work. If the rifle was not an original 85% plus gun, then dressing it up with case color is a neat idea. Doug Turnbull has created a cottage industry doing exactly the same thing to beater Winchesters of that period.
This is the rifle in always wanted as the wall hanger, collectors value be damned!

I believe @rookhawk has a thread about the ridiculousness of handling Winchesters with white gloves to preserve their value.

Mr Turnbull sure did a number on your No1
 
I will have to re-title this thread “If you have to ask, you already know the answer!”
That's almost EXACTLY what went through my head when I read the title of your thread! Almost word for word! LOL
 
well its your rifle, so do what you want. but do not look for a ok from me. this win 1892 in 25 wcf-aka 25-20 was owned by a relitive of mine who helped feed his familey thru the depression and is a reminder to me of how hard things were at that time.

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well its your rifle, so do what you want. but do not look for a ok from me. this win 1892 in 25 wcf-aka 25-20 was owned by a relitive of mine who helped feed his familey thru the depression and is a reminder to me of how had things were at that time.
Beautiful
 
It would have been around the booming metropolis of Killam, Alberta. That’s where he and his brother farmed. I don’t think Bert was much of a hunter though.

Along with this shotgun I also came into possession of a Model 92 .32 win, which some are going to crucify me for sending to Oskar Kob to have colour case hardened, a cooey .22 and and Ithaca pump.
Neat project! I inherited a 32-20 from my Grandfather and hope to send it off to Doug Turnbull one day so he can work his magic on it. It’s in rough shape.
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Nope....hang it on the wall....
 
if thats factory nickel finish its worth more left alone. my 1873 in 44-40 with factory nickle finished action.
Very nice! I’m not a hundred percent sure but I’m pretty certain the nickel finish on mine isn’t original. Most of the stampings are only partially legible including the serial number. Also the stock looks like it was the victim of a terrible attempt at a refinish. When I first acquired it I had a local gunsmith look at it and he pronounced it mechanically sound and safe to fire but the rifling is almost nonexistent. I fired it just a few times at 50 and 25 yds and it honestly scared me. Horrible accuracy.
 
I assume it’s nitro proofed and locks up securely… curious why everyone was eager to jump on the wall hanger label? Once the chamber length is determined and no chamber flaws detected, should be no reason to pronounce it unsuited to shoot normal field loads of correct length. Of course the safe and easy answer is: “ohhhh, nothing but a wall hanger” . :)
 
Barrels with a rattle....action with a rattle....stock broken.....chamber size unknown chamber size....doesnt close right......and some say it looks little used.....

Send it to fourfive8 for a test shoot and take it from there....
 
:) I'd shoot it in a heartbeat. It got that way from shooting and using. If the wrist hasn't already been properly repaired or is unknown and flexes or is an old stress crack- either pin it and re-glue it or take to a gunsmith who knows stocks to do it. He can inspect the chambers for flaws because if there is a failure to worry about it is the chambers not the lock up. Those things don't catastrophically fail because of the action or breech lock up failure. If the chambers haven't failed after countless rounds of unknown pressure smokeless shots, chances are pretty good they are not going to fail at a target or field load count of +1 or 100 or 1000 more shots. But, to be perfectly safe, kind of like being triple masked with a level 75AAA biohazard suit just to go outside, alone, in the age of covid, just put a kiddy lock through the action and hang it on the wall. :)
 
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Of course you can blow a shot gun up. Bad reloads maybe. A bore obstruction is probably the most common cause. A bad reload that leaves a wad in the bore will usually just dog knot the barrel at the point of the obstruction. A glob of snow or mud in the muzzle will banana peel the muzzle very nicely. Those shotguns are neat conversation pieces and will usually stand on their muzzles after that :) A 20 ga loaded under a 12 ga will usually rupture the chamber as will a 28 ga under a 16 ga.

A slam firing or out of battery firing Remington 1100 or 870 is particularly nasty to anyone standing on the port side of it. Usually not catastrophic, but small particles of brass head, hull or carbon spewing out the port not to mention the high velocity gas... not good things. But rattly hinge, break action shotguns don't fail the way of the malfunctioning auto loaders or pumps do. About the only way they catastrophically fail is by something that causes a very high pressure/kinetic event, commonly a substantial bore obstruction near the chamber.

In a previous life I tested and documented some of the ways guns fail, including some shotguns. One of the most difficult to purposefully blow up was a hinge break action shotgun. We are talking smokeless/nitro proofed guns here, not soft iron black powder designs with laminated/twist steel barrels. For smokeless/nitro proofed shotguns with hinge actions, the barrel may set back from the breech face and spew gas with extremely high pressure loads, but compared to other types of actions that could shear breech locking mechanisms, it is very difficult to make the hinge actions fail catastrophically before the chamber ruptures.

Additionally, a smokeless proofed .410 hinge action common factory gun built on a full sized platform was nearly impossible to blow up... at least up to pressure levels that I could produce with any possible overload or load combination. These likely exceeded 100kpsi. They would spring the actions open enough to relieve gas pressure but neither the hinge system nor the chambers would come apart (catastrophically fail).

Anecdotally, I grew up shooting a rattly hinge action single shot 16 ga I found. Factory records indicate it was made between 1898 and 1915. I found it in rusty and somewhat pitted condition behind our farm when I was 9 years old. My dad took it to the only gunsmith available and I was given the ok to shoot and hunt birds with it. It was just as rattly when I found it 62 years ago, as it is today. It has shot upwards of a couple thousand rounds over the years. In about 1961, IIRC, It's firing pin broke and it was the first real gun I fixed by myself. At age 12, I made a new firing pin from scratch and it still has that firing pin today. I shoot it once a while and took it to the range a couple of weeks ago and fired 4 shots into a large paper backer to check pattern.... I hadn't done that in a long time. Why shoot it?... just because. :)

This is a true anecdote, as so many stories are on internet forums, which doesn't prove a thing about the Belgian double in the OP. But I am much more leery of getting hit by shrapnel of a failed gun fired by some idiot reloader on the bench next to me testing his new mega hypersonic loads in his boomer rifle than I am shooting regular factory ammo in a proofed, hinge action shotgun, rattly or not.

Here's the Hopkins and Allen 16 ga in the anecdote. Note the small gap in breech- bottom pic :)

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I can’t believe I just saw this thread for the very first time! Fairly dubious and hazardous advice being thrown around for this poor fellow. @Red Leg gave the honest truth regarding the gun of the OP.

Is it safe to shoot? It sound like it is not.

Could it be made safe to shoot vintage, low pressure, 2.5” lead shells? Maybe.

How to know? Drop a grand on a wall thickness gauge. Drop $300 on a bore diameter gauge. See if the barrels ring true. Spend $75 on a chamber depth gauge to see if they’ve been altered. Determine if the top lever is closing properly. Take the forend off and shake the gun by the barrels to see if its off face or not.

It’s easy to give advice for someone to go give it a whirl when its not your face, hands, and mortal coil that is wagered in the process. Take it to a properly trained, skilled shotgun gunsmith that has all the aforementioned gauges, or buy your own set if you cannot find a skilled gunsmith within a 1000 miles. (I could not, the amount of skilled double gun mechanics in North America could be counted on two hands and a couple of spare toes)
 
Looks like it needs some work done on it but i dont see why you can't shoot it.
 
I can’t believe I just saw this thread for the very first time! Fairly dubious and hazardous advice being thrown around for this poor fellow. @Red Leg gave the honest truth regarding the gun of the OP.

Is it safe to shoot? It sound like it is not.

Could it be made safe to shoot vintage, low pressure, 2.5” lead shells? Maybe.

How to know? Drop a grand on a wall thickness gauge. Drop $300 on a bore diameter gauge. See if the barrels ring true. Spend $75 on a chamber depth gauge to see if they’ve been altered. Determine if the top lever is closing properly. Take the forend off and shake the gun by the barrels to see if its off face or not.

It’s easy to give advice for someone to go give it a whirl when its not your face, hands, and mortal coil that is wagered in the process. Take it to a properly trained, skilled shotgun gunsmith that has all the aforementioned gauges, or buy your own set if you cannot find a skilled gunsmith within a 1000 miles. (I could not, the amount of skilled double gun mechanics in North America could be counted on two hands and a couple of spare toes)
For the once a year I may shoot some clays, I’ll stick with my semi!
 
So the good points. It's nitro proofed in Liege and it's a known chamber length. That's not a bad start.

The bad points. Rattly barrels mean the solder has probably gone and as Red Leg notes, based on the age and condition, it's almost certainly off the face (take the forend off and see how much side to side play there is between action and barrels to confirm).

Other factors to consider would be what's the barrel wall thickness and is there pitting?

A cracked stock isn't really a consideration for me honestly. It might be indicative of the overall quality of fit and finish, it may just be a dud piece of wood. For all we know someone just fell and cracked the stock at some point, repaired it, and it was otherwise fine.

Personally, I've shot similar guns in similar visual condition in the past with no concerns. HOWEVER, I cannot in good conscience advise you to shoot this without getting it looked over in person by someone who knows what they're doing.

The most likely outcome would be that it'd be fine for a shot or two of low power 21g loads if that's what you want to do, BUT IT MIGHT NOT and that'd be too much risk, sight unseen, for me personally to fire a couple cartridges right next to my face...

Al.
 
It would have been around the booming metropolis of Killam, Alberta. That’s where he and his brother farmed. I don’t think Bert was much of a hunter though.

Along with this shotgun I also came into possession of a Model 92 .32 win, which some are going to crucify me for sending to Oskar Kob to have colour case hardened, a cooey .22 and and Ithaca pump.

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please tell me you didn’t do that to a pre 64 Winchester?
Why not? Looks great. Being a pre 64 doesnt really mean anything with that rifle, they all are.
 
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”looks good to me” spitballing a subjective safety call with a shotgun is a way to get somebody killed.

Still can’t believe what I’m reading from friends on this forum.

I’ve seen shotguns, very, very expensive shotguns that looked ”perfect” that measured only .030” thickness 6” (it’s supposed to be .065”-.085”) from the breech face with a minimal wall thickness near the end of the forend of only .013”. (It’s supposed to be .025”+ for 2.5” and .030” for 2.75” shells) But it “looked good to someone” and it should have been a $30k shotgun, and it was only $7k. And it would mortally wound you upon firing.

You have no way of telling if a shotgun is safe to shoot via the internet. You have no way to tell if a shotgun is safe to shoot if you get to handle it all night sitting on a sofa. The human eye cannot measure the elements of safety of a shotgun’s barrel. In Europe, the proof laws make it a crime to sell an unsafe firearm or to alter the bore dimensions via honing or filing without sending it back to the proof house with a 1.5x to 2x maximum load. No such laws exist in the USA and no licensure was required to tamper with an old Belgian shotgun. This one clearly has had repairs already by a shadetree gunsmith so extra caution is advised.

I find it best practice to not provide encouragement to the safety of an object on speculation, especially if it could lead to someone’s injury or death. If you don‘t have the tools to assess a double gun’s condition, you cannot make any judgments that mean anything substantive. A shotgun is a far more complicated weapon to determine safety compared to a rifle.
 
I try not to live in a world dominated by strawman arguments and imaginary Bic lighters. If I hear yadayada, "you need to do this or should do that or shall do something else out of an abundance of caution", one more time, I think I'll blow an aorta. Might as well say something like, "to prevent getting hit by a car while crossing the road, you shouldn't cross the road". Good grief! Might as well also recommend not going outside without a kevlar helmet, might get hit in the head by a small meteoroid. I even get in my pu and drive on a highway, everyday, knowing that some idiot I have no control over might cross the centerline and kill me! Imagine that!

No one is demanding or forcing anyone to shoot something they are not comfortable shooting! Please read for comprehension. I said I would shoot that shotgun without hesitation. I'd make sure the ammo was correct length- 2 1/2" or whatever. Already covered adequately in this thread. Measuring the chamber length is not rocket science! That gun did not get worn by not shooting! :) My chances are pretty darn good it won't blow up on the next shot :)

Here's some pics of one I shoot occasionally. It has a cannibalized East India Co 1806 Brown Bess lock. It has a twist steel, pattern welded barrel. It is a fairly typical jezail from Afghanistan. And I will guarantee it was not proofed. It is about 55-56 caliber. I load with about 35 gr FF black and shove a cloth patched 54 caliber ball to top of powder and pull the trigger. It sparks, ignites the main charge through the touch hole and goes boom! Kind of fun to shoot and more historically educational than yapping on the anonymous internet :)
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I try not to live in a world dominated by strawman arguments and imaginary Bic lighters. If I hear yadayada, "you need to do this or should do that or shall do something else out of an abundance of caution", one more time, I think I'll blow an aorta. Might as well say something like, "to prevent getting hit by a car while crossing the road, you shouldn't cross the road". Good grief! Might as well also recommend not going outside without a kevlar helmet, might get hit in the head by a small meteoroid. I even get in my pu and drive on a highway, everyday, knowing that some idiot I have no control over might cross the centerline and kill me! Imagine that!

No one is demanding or forcing anyone to shoot something they are not comfortable shooting! Please read for comprehension. I said I would shoot that shotgun without hesitation. I'd make sure the ammo was correct length- 2 1/2" or whatever. Already covered adequately in this thread. Measuring the chamber length is not rocket science! That gun did not get worn by not shooting! :) My chances are pretty darn good it won't blow up on the next shot :)

Here's some pics of one I shoot occasionally. It has a cannibalized East India Co 1806 Brown Bess lock. It has a twist steel, pattern welded barrel. It is a fairly typical jezail from Afghanistan. And I will guarantee it was not proofed. It is about 55-56 caliber. I load with about 35 gr FF black and shove a cloth patched 54 caliber ball to top of powder and pull the trigger. It sparks, ignites the main charge through the touch hole and goes boom! Kind of fun to shoot and more historically educational than yapping on the anonymous internet :)
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You certainly don't seem to be adverse to a lot of "yapping on the anonymous internet...." Just saying.

But let's take your handgun as a case in point. No Western gunmaker would have advised firing that thing in the early 19th century. The fact that you have not won the Russian roulette prize to date and lost several fingers or perhaps an eye, is not what I would call a particularly helpful recommendation that the OP should use that old Belgian gun.

There are a number of technical steps a properly trained gunsmith can go through to see what is needed, if anything, to insure the gun can be safely used. I believe to recommend anything else is at least foolhardy - anonymously or not. But to say he should shoot it because you haven't blown your hand off yet is ridiculous.
 

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