Rifles Used For Royal Bengal Tigers

Kawshik Rahman

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Correctly, sir.




It can be each of that three (or even some other of the 9,3 famely).
But it should be the 9,3 x 62 for 99%.
(Exspecialy from your decribing it as a "bolt action" and a "mauser")
Bull Hunter
Your knowledge and your ability to analyze and pinpoint a calibre just by hearing it's description is most impressive . I believe you actually are correct. Do you not also own a rifle in this beautiful calibre ?
 

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Love stories of the past and the pics to go with them! Thanks for sharing another one!
 

Kawshik Rahman

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That is the point.There was no other manufacturer of Big Game ammunition for these double rifles .
In the 60's it was quite popular in Germany and Austria to build double rifles (over and under system) in this "safe" caliber, as there were sometimes difficulties with the powder that clumped and did not burn completely . But the time is long gone and I claim that none of us has ever shot a cartridge like this.
I have this Ferlach double rifle in the often reviled .458 Win Mag. like and do in the year about 150 -200 shots with it on the range at " running boar" mostly.Never had the problem to remove the empty cartridge,never.
Only the CCI 250 primers are not optimal for this weapon.
I take now RWS primers 5341 and everything is good. A few short data and then I disappear again:
.450 Nitro Express 480 gn bullet-2150 feet per second
.450 No. 2 -500gn bullet-2150 feet per second
.470 NE 500gn bullet -2150 feet per second
.458 Win mag 480- 500gn bullets-2150 feet per second.

The two .450s and the .470 are praised like Mother Theresa and the .458 is said to be bad ?
A nonsense, isn't it ?

Foxi
loving the .458 :)

Foxi
This is a most interesting comment . Does German sportsmen typically favor the over and under system over the side by side system ? I had noticed something about many of my respected German clients which l found most fascinating .
Their bolt operation mauser rifles , almost always had double triggers .
I have had both one good experience and one bad experience with a .458 Winchester Magnum calibre armament.
The good experience is related in my article " A double barrel rifle , a Gaur and a very unpleasant surprise ".
The bad experience is related in the story " The Gaur Shikar which went very terribly wrong " .
Since , l had two very different experiences these two times a client brought a .458 Winchester magnum calibre weapon , l have always been intrigued about the love and hate relationship regarding this cartridge.
 
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Foxi

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Oh KR and the other guys,
I have so much work on my desk and it's very hard not to look into this forum all the time :whistle:
About the German "Stecher" system and other things, the members HWL,Kurpfalzjäger, and bull hunter can certainly say smarter than me.
 

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That is the point.There was no other manufacturer of Big Game ammunition for these double rifles .
In the 60's it was quite popular in Germany and Austria to build double rifles (over and under system) in this "safe" caliber, as there were sometimes difficulties with the powder that clumped and did not burn completely . But the time is long gone and I claim that none of us has ever shot a cartridge like this.
I have this Ferlach double rifle in the often reviled .458 Win Mag. like and do in the year about 150 -200 shots with it on the range at " running boar" mostly.Never had the problem to remove the empty cartridge,never.
Only the CCI 250 primers are not optimal for this weapon.
I take now RWS primers 5341 and everything is good. A few short data and then I disappear again:
.450 Nitro Express 480 gn bullet-2150 feet per second
.450 No. 2 -500gn bullet-2150 feet per second
.470 NE 500gn bullet -2150 feet per second
.458 Win mag 480- 500gn bullets-2150 feet per second.

The two .450s and the .470 are praised like Mother Theresa and the .458 is said to be bad ?
A nonsense, isn't it ?

Foxi
loving the .458 :)

Yes Foxi...it is pure nonsense as the rounds you list have pretty much the same ballistics..
However, in a double rifle, the .458Win. chamber pressure is high….so high that I doubt the classic sxs double rifles so calibred will stay on face with much shooting….but perhaps an over/under with the strong Kersten Lock will cope with the pressure..as yours seem to do..?


I have shot several elephant with .458Win....it works well with modern loads and bullets….that said there are better choices out there..
 

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Mr. Granger's .375 Holland and Holland magnum double barrel rifle in that film.
I have in my archive the true guns of mister Grangers.
He was in real life an great hunter. Also in Africa.
Im not sure - I must have an look - , but I think he had hunted in India also.

cpr0312
Thank you so much for your kind words and support. I have decided to continue writing here.
That is good.
You have mutch great content for us.

About the German "Stecher" system and other things, the members HWL,Kurpfalzjäger, and bull hunter can certainly say smarter than me.
In my opinion it is very easy:
If you can handle it, if the trigger funcional saftey - and the hunter use it only as an special option - it is an great tool.
I have one also, but my is called an "french rück stecher", even then the ground-construction is german.

Bull Hunter
Your knowledge and your ability to analyze and pinpoint a calibre just by hearing it's description is most impressive . I believe you actually are correct. Do you not also own a rifle in this beautiful calibre ?
Thank you sir.
Yes.
My hunting rifle, witch I use around the world, is an Heym SR 30 B.H. royal, straight bold, custom-made, in 9,3 x 62.
But i use the amo witch you dont like...
 

Kawshik Rahman

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I have in my archive the true guns of mister Grangers.
He was in real life an great hunter. Also in Africa.
Im not sure - I must have an look - , but I think he had hunted in India also.


That is good.
You have mutch great content for us.


In my opinion it is very easy:
If you can handle it, if the trigger funcional saftey - and the hunter use it only as an special option - it is an great tool.
I have one also, but my is called an "french rück stecher", even then the ground-construction is german.


Thank you sir.
Yes.
My hunting rifle, witch I use around the world, is an Heym SR 30 B.H. royal, straight bold, custom-made, in 9,3 x 62.
But i use the amo witch you dont like...
Bull Hunter
I am curious . You are among my many favorite European forum members here .
How do you personally feel about the .458 Winchester magnum calibre as a journalist ?
 

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How do you personally feel about the .458 Winchester magnum calibre as a journalist ?
(Disclaimer: I / We dont want to start a fight. For Insider: The II. AR-Caliber-War. ;))

I personal had used them only as a hired gun, on some self-guided hunts in africa, where I cant bring own rifles and of course for testing. Amo and / or guns.
I personaly "dont like it".

The .458 had an bad call in Africa, but for reasons, witch are long gone...
E.g. "Fights" between USA and English-based writers in the past, not so functional extractors on the first guns and on special series from Winchester and Co. and some bad amo.
I my expirience this caliber is also used in Africa by "poor PH" (nothing against them), and then they have money, they will sell it and buy quick an other rifle, in an other caliber.
 

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That is the point.There was no other manufacturer of Big Game ammunition for these double rifles .
In the 60's it was quite popular in Germany and Austria to build double rifles (over and under system) in this "safe" caliber, as there were sometimes difficulties with the powder that clumped and did not burn completely . But the time is long gone and I claim that none of us has ever shot a cartridge like this.
I have this Ferlach double rifle in the often reviled .458 Win Mag. like and do in the year about 150 -200 shots with it on the range at " running boar" mostly.Never had the problem to remove the empty cartridge,never.
Only the CCI 250 primers are not optimal for this weapon.
I take now RWS primers 5341 and everything is good. A few short data and then I disappear again:
.450 Nitro Express 480 gn bullet-2150 feet per second
.450 No. 2 -500gn bullet-2150 feet per second
.470 NE 500gn bullet -2150 feet per second
.458 Win mag 480- 500gn bullets-2150 feet per second.

The two .450s and the .470 are praised like Mother Theresa and the .458 is said to be bad ?
A nonsense, isn't it ?

Foxi
loving the .458 :)

Hard to argue with a 500 gr bullet at 2150. I have chronographed my .458 Lott with 500 gr bullets at 2300 fps. I have taken a number of buffalo with it. I would have no qualms with the same bullet at 2150. Have you chrono’d your loads? I understand that the early criticism came from factory loads at well below advertised velocities. However this is based solely on what I have read as my experience in this cartridge class is with the Lott.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Foxi
This is a most interesting comment . Does German sportsmen typically favor the over and under system over the side by side system ? I had noticed something about many of my respected German clients which l found most fascinating .
Their bolt operation mauser rifles , almost always had double triggers .
I have had both one good experience and one bad experience with a .458 Winchester Magnum calibre armament.
The good experience is related in my article " A double barrel rifle , a Gaur and a very unpleasant surprise ".
The bad experience is related in the story " The Gaur Shikar which went very terribly wrong " .
Since , l had two very different experiences these two times a client brought a .458 Winchester magnum calibre weapon , l have always been intrigued about the love and hate relationship regarding this cartridge.

I have no experience with the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum , so I find it difficult to comment on it. Nevertheless , I read about it regularly, and that already 50 years , and always the same comments. You love this cartridge or you don't love it. She has a miserable ballistics , but she cannot be so bad because a lot of game have been shot with it in the last 60 years. It seems to be enough for hunting DG up to 50 yards , and is therefore in all cases suitable for backup. If you have to shoot at long range , you will probably reach the limits of this cartridge very quickly. IMHO we have a better choice nowadays when it comes to cartridges for hunting DG.

Both kind of double rifle , O/U or S/S , are used as well in Germany as in France , predominantly caliber 8x57IRS or 9.3x74R , mainly for the drive hunting , but not only. They are expensive rifles so the bolt action rifles are more used.

The German double trigger is no longer an topic today. It is no popular by the younger hunters for practical reasons. For big game rifles with strong recoil it is not at all recommended. There is a risk of injury at both ends if the shot is too early.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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I have no experience with the cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum , so I find it difficult to comment on it. Nevertheless , I read about it regularly, and that already 50 years , and always the same comments. You love this cartridge or you don't love it. She has a miserable ballistics , but she cannot be so bad because a lot of game have been shot with it in the last 60 years. It seems to be enough for hunting DG up to 50 yards , and is therefore in all cases suitable for backup. If you have to shoot at long range , you will probably reach the limits of this cartridge very quickly. IMHO we have a better choice nowadays when it comes to cartridges for hunting DG.

Both kind of double rifle , O/U or S/S , are used as well in Germany as in France , predominantly caliber 8x57IRS or 9.3x74R , mainly for the drive hunting , but not only. They are expensive rifles so the bolt action rifles are more used.

The German double trigger is no longer an topic today. It is no popular by the younger hunters for practical reasons. For big game rifles with strong recoil it is not at all recommended. There is a risk of injury at both ends if the shot is too early.
Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for explaining this to me in so much detail. During my time , all the double barrel rifles were of side by side configuration. I have always been mystified by these new over under double barrel rifles l see on my visits to Europe.
Aside from the calibres mentioned by you , l have also seen a beautiful one in 7 millimeter caliber.
Regarding the German double trigger configuration , l whole heartedly agree. Clients were very successful with them against Sambhar deer and boar , but a gentleman from Norway almost got hit in the femoral artery by a charging boar because he could not operate those two triggers in his 9.3 millimeter mauser rifle fast enough when it decided to charge.
The .458 Winchester magnum calibre was the largest calibre ever brought by my clients to India , although l certainly always wanted some one to bring a .460 magnum Weatherby to see how it would crumple a Royal Bengal tiger. During my career , we all heard stories how it was the most powerful cartridge ever designed by man.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for explaining this to me in so much detail. During my time , all the double barrel rifles were of side by side configuration. I have always been mystified by these new over under double barrel rifles l see on my visits to Europe.
Aside from the calibres mentioned by you , l have also seen a beautiful one in 7 millimeter caliber.
Regarding the German double trigger configuration , l whole heartedly agree. Clients were very successful with them against Sambhar deer and boar , but a gentleman from Norway almost got hit in the femoral artery by a charging boar because he could not operate those two triggers in his 9.3 millimeter mauser rifle fast enough when it decided to charge.
The .458 Winchester magnum calibre was the largest calibre ever brought by my clients to India , although l certainly always wanted some one to bring a .460 magnum Weatherby to see how it would crumple a Royal Bengal tiger. During my career , we all heard stories how it was the most powerful cartridge ever designed by man.

I have experience with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum , but one should not overestimate their working. She has a superb ballistic , but shot placement also remains important.

This cartridge is certainly suitable for tiger hunting , on condition that you select the right bullet for this purpose , soft or thin jacketed.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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I have experience with the cartridge 460 Weatherby Magnum , but one should not overestimate their working. She has a superb ballistic , but shot placement also remains important.

This cartridge is certainly suitable for tiger hunting , on condition that you select the right bullet for this purpose , soft or thin jacketed.
Kurpfalzjager
When l go to the United States of America , next year , Hoss Delgado will let me shoot a .460 Weatherby magnum rifle called a Zkk 602 . I am most excited .
 

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Sorry, but I have to say this to honor the .458:
I don't know a single elephant hunter who shot the caliber of the last 20 years and wasn't satisfied with it (except for his shooting performance).
What does miserable ballistics mean? Is the .470 used to shoot at other distances ?
Poor people caliber ?OK,this is the .375 also,they are the cheapest cartridges for DG,but when it works? -..458 is simply the most common Big Game caliber in Africa (category .450 up).
My friends and their colleagues in Zimbabwe have shot thousands of elephants as Game Controllers in Hangwe and their connected National parks (Gonarezou, Manapools, Matusadona and what else do I know), the other half with the .375.What can a modern PH say who has only 10 elephants to shoot in his education,if at all ?And a European or American guest with 2 elephants on his list with other calibers ?
It is only spoken badly by people they have never shot, but everyone knows one who knows one ,who again has a brother-in-law and a colleague of them.............
 
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CoElkHunter

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Kawshik,
Thanks so much for sharing another GREAT personal hunting account to all of us here on AH! I found your article on tiger rifles very interesting! I noticed both in this account and your other many personal hunting experiences in India, that the .416 Rigby caliber isn’t mentioned much or at all (unless I missed it?). I’m wondering if the rifles/ammo in that caliber at that time were too expensive, too obscure, relegated to Africa, or a combination of all three? Just curious? Thanks, and keep your articles coming!
CEH
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Kawshik,
Thanks so much for sharing another GREAT personal hunting account to all of us here on AH! I found your article on tiger rifles very interesting! I noticed both in this account and your other many personal hunting experiences in India, that the .416 Rigby caliber isn’t mentioned much or at all (unless I missed it?). I’m wondering if the rifles/ammo in that caliber at that time were too expensive, too obscure, relegated to Africa, or a combination of all three? Just curious? Thanks, and keep your articles coming!
CEH
Co Elk Hunter
That is most observant of you . Infact , in my career , l had never seen a .416 Rigby calibre rifle in action. I only had seen a few of them being sold in auction house near Sirguja in 1955 and 1958 , which used to belong to a few local Zamindaars ( land lords ) from the English colonial period.
During my time , American cartridges had largely pushed most traditional English and European sporting cartridges from the scene. I was talking to Hoss Delgado , Pondoro and Mark Hunter about this issue . They all subscribe the reason to the fact that the English firm , ICI Kynoch had discontinued all the English central fire cartridges during the time span of my career ( 1962 to 1970 ) .
However , l do know that during this time , Eley ( Kynoch's alternate name ? ) was still manufacturing .22 Long Rifle calibre cartridges and shot-gun cartridges.
Take a look at this .
IMG_20190920_113326_01.jpg

I still possess many vintage boxes of .22 Long Rifle calibre cartridges from Eley from that time , unopened .

It will also interest you in knowing that my client with the .458 Winchester magnum calibre Holland and Holland double barrel rifle , was a repeat client .
He initially used to come to India with a double barrel .400 bore rifle made by the English firm , Jeffery . It had two triggers , and was an excellent weapon , but l did not think too highly of the 28 inch long muzzles and the automatic safety mechanism . For this weapon , he was using an old stock of cartridges from ICI Kynoch of 400 grain weight ( metal envelope variety for Gaur and soft head variety for Royal Bengal tiger and leopard ) . It was only when he completely exhausted his stock of .400 bore Kynoch cartridges , that he had Holland and Holland build him that beautiful double barrel rifle calibrated for .458 Winchester magnum , regulated for Remington ammunition ( l originally posted here that the gun was regulated for Winchester brand ammunition , but l was talking with my friend , Captain Newaz over the telephone a few days ago , and he reminded me that it was Remington brand ammunition . You will forgive me for the slight error ) .
For me , that double barrel rifle had all the features of a good double barrel rifle for dangerous animals :
Two triggers
No automatic safety mechanism
26 inches long muzzles.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Sorry, but I have to say this to honor the .458:
I don't know a single elephant hunter who shot the caliber of the last 20 years and wasn't satisfied with it (except for his shooting performance).
What does miserable ballistics mean? Is the .470 used to shoot at other distances ?
Poor people caliber ?OK,this is the .375 also,they are the cheapest cartridges for DG,but when it works? -..458 is simply the most common Big Game caliber in Africa (category .450 up).
My friends and their colleagues in Zimbabwe have shot thousands of elephants as Game Controllers in Hangwe and their connected National parks (Gonarezou, Manapools, Matusadona and what else do I know), the other half with the .375.What can a modern PH say who has only 10 elephants to shoot in his education,if at all ?And a European or American guest with 2 elephants on his list with other calibers ?
It is only spoken badly by people they have never shot, but everyone knows one who knows one ,who again has a brother-in-law and a colleague of them.............

Partly true , but don't forget that the hunting conditions in Africa change too. The times where you could shoot at 20 paces a buffalo or a elephant are no longer always available , so the cartridges with better ballistic are already advantageous. I could not have shot more than a third of my buffalos with a cartridge like the 458 Win Mag. Unfortunately , this also applies to cartridges like the 450NE or 470NE. But that does not mean that you cannot shot game with it , It's all a matter of circumstances of the shot. There are cartridges that allow more.

I have to stop because it's not the topic of this posting.
 

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