Red stag SCI vs CIC

[Chago]

I figured this would be the best forum to ask this. I am beginning to research a red stag hunt for 2020. I'm trying to compare value as I understand the European model is a trophy Fee based on size. Now I understand the CIC system has different bronze, silver and gold levels based on the country etc. But I have been finding bronze for 190 cic to 200 CIC. And silver 200 - 210 etc. That being said I also understand CIC also includes points for weight of the trophy.

My question is, and I know you can't give a exact comparison. But if I'm looking at 200 CIC. What would that translate into sci scoring? I'm ok with a ballpark, I'm just struggling to understand what I'm buying if I get a bronze, silver, gold etc. My brain is wired in sci style scoring so I know what a 300" stag looks like, 350 etc.

Thank you

 

[BRICKBURN]

Interesting questions.
I hope someone with experience with both can help out.
Looking at the score sheets certainly demonstrates the differences.

It looks like SCI measures mass/size by measuring every last tine while CIC leans toward weight. (factor 2x) etc.

 

[Chago]

What would be awesome is if someone has a CIC score card filled out. And some pics of their stag to post. This would help us understand. Because it's hard to compare blank scoresheets. As I have no idea what the average skull weighs or skull length etc. So I don't know how much to assume.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

What would be awesome is if someone has a CIC score card filled out. And some pics of their stag to post. This would help us understand. Because it's hard to compare blank scoresheets. As I have no idea what the average skull weighs or skull length etc. So I don't know how much to assume.

+1

 

[mark-hunter]

For European red deer ( Cervus Elaphus L)

CIC point scoring:

Bronze medal: 170 CIC - 189.99 CIC
Silver Medal: 190 CIC - 209.99 CIC
Gold medal: 210 CIC and up.

The strongest trophy in my Country ever recorded was 261.81 CIC.

Commercial price goes exponentially up, on top level trophy CIC points.

On economic scale "best buy" red deer should be in the level of 160 to 180 CIC points, where the trophy is not extremely strong, but it looks at least like "deer"... 8 or ten pointers with nicely developed antlers.

To give a clue of pricing, in my country, here is example on average trophy fees, other expenses excluded:

140 CIC - 810 EUR
150 CIC - 945 EUR
160 CIC - 1081 EUR
170 CIC - 1351 EUR
180 CIC - 1891 EUR
190 CIC - 2567 EUR
200 CIC - 3378 EUR (This is already price of average PG safari in namibia or RSA!!!)
210 CIC - 4324 EUR
220 CIC - 5675 EUR
230 CIC - 8378 EUR (above 230 CIC, every additional CIC point costs - 675 Eur)

Usually venison, trophy preparation - scull whitening, guide, lodging, rifle rental, etc - is not included in above price. This is only trophy fee.

I know for the cases where for the strongest trophies, full packaged prices have been in level between 20 to 30 k EUR.

If every CIC point above 230 cic is 675 EUR,
then as per this price list 260 CIC point buck would be 8738 EUR + 20,250 EUR = 28,988 EUR, only for trophy fee.

Then, when I imagine Africa... and 30k plus budget, imagine what I could get there for that money....

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Thanks for sharing Mark.

 

[Chago]

For European red deer ( Cervus Elaphus L)

CIC point scoring:

Bronze medal: 170 CIC - 189.99 CIC
Silver Medal: 190 CIC - 209.99 CIC
Gold medal: 210 CIC and up.

The strongest trophy in my Country ever recorded was 261.81 CIC.

Commercial price goes exponentially up, on top level trophy CIC points.

On economic scale "best buy" red deer should be in the level of 160 to 180 CIC points, where the trophy is not extremely strong, but it looks at least like "deer"... 8 or ten pointers with nicely developed antlers.

To give a clue of pricing, in my country, here is example on average trophy fees, other expenses excluded:

140 CIC - 810 EUR
150 CIC - 945 EUR
160 CIC - 1081 EUR
170 CIC - 1351 EUR
180 CIC - 1891 EUR
190 CIC - 2567 EUR
200 CIC - 3378 EUR (This is already price of average PG safari in namibia or RSA!!!)
210 CIC - 4324 EUR
220 CIC - 5675 EUR
230 CIC - 8378 EUR (above 230 CIC, every additional CIC point costs - 675 Eur)

Usually venison, trophy preparation - scull whitening, guide, lodging, rifle rental, etc - is not included in above price. This is only trophy fee.

I know for the cases where for the strongest trophies, full packaged prices have been in level between 20 to 30 k EUR.

If every CIC point above 230 cic is 675 EUR,
then as per this price list 260 CIC point buck would be 8738 EUR + 20,250 EUR = 28,988 EUR, only for trophy fee.

Then, when I imagine Africa... and 30k plus budget, imagine what I could get there for that money....

What country are you from?

 

[Hallgeir Gravråk]

Here is my Silvermadal stag from Poland:

The trophy fee was 3300 Euro

 

[Chago]

Here is my Silvermadal stag from Poland:

The trophy fee was 3300 Euro

That is exactly what I need. I would be ecstatic with a stag like that. Silver it is!!!!

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

You did have a good hunting Hallgeir. Trophy dream. I envy you.
Witold

 

[Buckdog]

I am a sci measurer and the sci system is all about getting a better score with more tines aka the emphasis is on number of tines to add up for a bigger score. the cic system appears to take in account weight and beauty points ??? Not familiar with CIC but beauty points WTF is that all about? I can put a tape on inches of tines, etc but how does one assign subjective beauty points fairly? I can see problems with that if a person give me a stag to measure and its 3 point shy of gold and I decide no not beautiful enough so no beauty points no gold for you or I say oh you seem nice the thing is ugly as hell but I will give you 4 beauty points anyhow so you get gold? don't like it.

 

[BRICKBURN]

What would be awesome is if someone has a CIC score card filled out. And some pics of their stag to post. This would help us understand. Because it's hard to compare blank scoresheets. As I have no idea what the average skull weighs or skull length etc. So I don't know how much to assume.

I'm with you.
They deduct .5 to .7 Kg off the weight for the skull. (depending on style of prep)

 

[BRICKBURN]

......... the cic system appears to take in account weight and beauty points ??? Not familiar with CIC but beauty points .........

They make sense but it is an odd system to us.

Pearling of the bases - usually very mature animals. They are prettier.
Colour - I guess older and darker is better.
Tines - ??
Bays - ??
Crowns - Looks like you get plenty of credit for those crown tines. Up to 10

It sure looks like mass is the big deal.

 

[mark-hunter]

What country are you from?

Croatia.

Check my introduction thread..

Anyway, now I am on my job, off-shore, when I get home in two weeks, I can take exact rules from CIC scoring system, then post them here. In case the question remains open, till then.

Above prices, are given in official country hunting organization web site. Many local outfitters use the same price lists.
In various offers can be different. Either more, or less.

Some outfitters even offer lumpsum payment, and you shoot what you get.

Local residents can hunt "fore free", by being member of local hunting club, they do various jobs, maintanence, collecting working hours, etc... But there are draw backs, for example when there is a quota of 3 bucks, and 100 members are issued a permit. Low chance... of getting a buck, due to competition

Most probably, if a trophy is guaranteed in gold medal - this will be taken in fenced property. Red deer bucks are not territorial.

The best hunting is during rut. (during fall)
Cheapest offers can be found before the season ends, january, february - in order to complete the quota, but it is not a rut. There are risks of not getting a deer, or the trophy size can be "variable".

The issue is pricing, because the deer is shot on approval of professional guide.
Guide can make an error in estimation of CIC points.

The price on strongest trophy can suddenly jump up with each CIC, over of what has been agreed / contracted.
How it is settled, depends from case to case, or contract.

 

[mark-hunter]

The trophy fee was 3300 Euro

Great trophy! Congrats.

Very similar price as per my posts!

 

[Chago]

Croatia.

Check my introduction thread..

Anyway, now I am on my job, off-shore, when I get home in two weeks, I can take exact rules from CIC scoring system, then post them here. In case the question remains open, till then.

Above prices, are given in official country hunting organization web site. Many local outfitters use the same price lists.
In various offers can be different. Either more, or less.

Some outfitters even offer lumpsum payment, and you shoot what you get.

Local residents can hunt "fore free", by being member of local hunting club, they do various jobs, maintanence, collecting working hours, etc... But there are draw backs, for example when there is a quota of 3 bucks, and 100 members are issued a permit. Low chance... of getting a buck, due to competition

Most probably, if a trophy is guaranteed in gold medal - this will be taken in fenced property. Red deer bucks are not territorial.

The best hunting is during rut. (during fall)
Cheapest offers can be found before the season ends, january, february - in order to complete the quota, but it is not a rut. There are risks of not getting a deer, or the trophy size can be "variable".

The issue is pricing, because the deer is shot on approval of professional guide.
Guide can make an error in estimation of CIC points.

The price on strongest trophy can suddenly jump up with each CIC, over of what has been agreed / contracted.
How it is settled, depends from case to case, or contract.

Hvala brate. Ja ću te poslat PM.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Croatia.

Greetings from Korčula! I’m on holidays with my wife here at the moment.

 

[mark-hunter]

Greetings from Korčula! I’m on holidays with my wife here at the moment.

O, man!

Isnt this a small world! You are even handling Croatian alphabet "č"...

Hope you enjoy hollidays!

Ever considered hunting in Croatia?
(now is roe deer season, possibly peak of rut, plus overall all boar hunts as prevention of African swine flu, which is spreading in Europe, then the quail season very soon...)

 

[Opposite Pole]

O, man!

Isnt this a small world! You are even handling Croatian alphabet "č"...

Hope you enjoy hollidays!

Ever considered hunting in Croatia?
(now is roe deer season, possibly peak of rut, plus overall all boar hunts as prevention of African swine flu, which is spreading in Europe, then the quail season very soon...)

I’m based in Poland now and hunt fee less so it’s hard to justify paying for hunting the same species though I am thinking about Bear hunt in your beautiful country as back home they are protected. BTW what’s with Korčula, everybody here seems to be either from Australia or Poland. I mean everybody. We arrived from Dubrovnik yesterday and are gonna catch a ferry to Brač on Wednesday, then 3 days later to Split for a day and last night and day in Zagreb. Then back to work. Loving it so far.

 

[mark-hunter]

I am glad you like it!
Crystal clear seas, and good sunny weather! islands attract more and more tourists every year.
For the yachting tourism, there is 1200 islands, and 90% of them uninhabited, so true Mediterranean wilderness.
I go boating island to island every summer, with family!

For bears, you have two seasons:
Spring and fall. Bears hunted in fall, are considered better trophy due to good winter hides.

With official overall numbers of bear population of around 1200 bears, we are one of the richest "bear countries" in EU.
Real numbers of bears are probably a bit higher, because in recent years they have been spreading to areas not inhabbited by them before.
About 10% of that number is annual qouta, (cca 110-120 tags issued annualy), and 90% of that number is usually successfully hunted.

Most of this tags, are hunted in Gorski Kotar, area of mountains and hills. (halfway between Rijeka and Zagreb, if you follow main interstate highway)

Bears are usually pre-baited, and hunting is from high stands.
Legal requirement for rifle is minimum 3500 joules power at 100 meters, bullet 11.50 grams, minimum.
Bear is dangerous game, so classic walk and stalk is not practiced.

Few hints, to plan for future!