Range Report --- Now I don't know what to do

[Rez Exelon]

So I took a rare day off yesterday to head to the range and check some stuff out, and what a mixed bag that turned out to be! I have a 375 H&H that I was putting for sale so I felt I needed to test that after a few years of storage. Then was the Ruger No 1 in 416 Rem I'd tried to test before when I got it, but had issues. Finally was a 338 Lapua that was new to me and I wanted to play with.

So the day started on the 375. This is a 1917 converted to 375, probably long before I took breaths on this planet. I had some loads worked up for it in the past and just setup at 25 yards to check the scope I had on it (scope was a recent add as I repurposed the one that had been on it). Four rounds in, four rounds in a nice tight group. Made scope adjustments, queued 4 more. Bang. Fail to chamber? Turns out that the round apparently didn't get under the extractor claw on the bolt went into the chamber and then got wedged when I unknowningly tried to close the bolt. No amount of trying to mortar it would move it, couldn't get extractor on it. Had to call that one a day.

Next up was the Ruger 416. Now, when I got it, I made some rounds, tried to test and everything just went "click" rather than "bang". Looking into it, I decided that maybe it didn't like the CCI primers I used, so I remade the rounds with Federals. However, to be complete I started off using some of my few factory loads. Figured I'd get Chrono data on those one way or the other for comparison. So 5 shots with federal primers and all went off, all happy. Then the reloads... 3 in, all good. 4th and 5th "click". Retried 4th and 5th and on second strike they went off. Then I switched to the same rounds in CCI. The first of those fired, the second didn't. No amount of restriking worked on that. So mixed results.

The Lapua on test was a Savage 110 with a Nikon FX1000 6-24 I picked up locally at a stupid good price. I just wanted to play and check it. I already have one so figured it'd be interesting to see how it did since it was probably zero'd better than my current. Threw some loads I'd made with Hornady ELD's over 82gr of H1000 and at 100 yards got about 3/4 groups. Velocity was a bit lower than I wanted, but the groups showed a lot of promise to work from. From a new to me rifle, with scope I didn't know and using a new bipod style I was happy.

So now the question is how do I unscrew the first two rifles.

The easiest is the No.1 which I think I just need to get a higher power hammer spring. I did a full disassembly and cleaning on it after my last range session with it down to cleaning the firing pin and hole and all that jazz. So maybe it's just needing 20 bucks of Wolf spring. IIRC Neumrich has that and some other things to get for a spare parts kit pretty cheap at the moment, so I think I'm going to pick them up and then take on the adventure of changing that spring. (If you've never accidentally popped the spring from the strut and wanted to get it on, 1/10 don't recommend).

The 1917 is much tougher. I immediately reached out to the guy I was talking to and basically said "sorry, I can't let this go because I discovered issues" because of integrity and all that. But how to fix. I did the highly NOT recommended dowel-in-the-barrel-and-whack-it method without results. So that basically means next option is gunsmith and take the barrel off and get some speciality tools involved (though I guess I could always just buy those). Based on the grouping I got before failure, and previous notes, the barrel is a great shooter and unless there is damage, doesn't need to be replaced. But maybe it's time to barrel swapto 458 Lott since I already have ammo and dies? Then I could just keep the barrel for later if I wanted I suppose. I've never swapped a barrel on a bolt action, let alone a 1917 that are supposed to be somewhat of a challenge but it'd be a good skill to learn. Or I could keep it simple, and just get the barrel off and sell the action, I dunno.

So what sayeth the group??

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Removing the barrel from military configuration 1917 is the challenge but this one has already been rebarreled once so you wouldn't be dealing with that particular issue.

Was the jammed case loaded from magazine or snapped over (i.e. cartridge dropped in empty chamber and bolt closed)? I presume the extractor didn't break. If you can't knock it out of the barrel pounding on a long dowel, it sounds to me to be more likely a problem with the ammo, possibly brass came apart. Not sure why you'd be concerned about trying to push the case out that way. A wooden rod could never damage rifling. It's much softer than the bullets forced down the gun's throat every time it's fired.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Jammed case was loaded from the magazine, but I think it just didn't snap in under the ejector. As far as I can tell there's no damage to the ejector. That may be a slightly conditioned statement in that the ejector isn't the prettiest to start anyways, but nothing new ugly that I haven't seen before.

If I recall correctly, the danger to trying to smack the round out is the possibilities of impact detonating the primer, or causing heat from compression of the components.

I did soak the entire thing in liquid wrench overnight and then gave it another couple of thwacks this morning with no difference but didn't work on it too much. I figure I might take some AR500 plate and 2x6 to make a slightly "safER" cage around the action if I'm going to try to keep smacking it because of those possibilities.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Depending on why the case is stuck, hammering on the projectile can make it stick tighter, The bullet compressing the powder and forcing the brass tighter against the chamber. And then there is always the chance of a detonation, which can get messy. A cartridge puller would be the safest option, like a slide hammer with a collet on the end that tightens on the rim, if you have access to a lathe they are easy to make. The easiest option for someone who doesn’t have a lathe would be to unscrew the barrel
Gumpy

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Oh, my mistake. Didn't realize the cartridge didn't fire. Should have read it more carefully. Yeah, I wouldn't pound on it too much.

 

[Rez Exelon]

I think I may have to break down and buy the action wrench. There's a good guy I know of an hour away but price of gas and all it might be cheaper to just buy the thing. Especially if I choose a different barrel on my other 1917 based 416/404 project that is still festering, then it could be handy. It's just that with a live round in there I'm unable to actually ship the action/barrel combo anywhere either.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I think I may have to break down and buy the action wrench. There's a good guy I know of an hour away but price of gas and all it might be cheaper to just buy the thing. Especially if I choose a different barrel on my other 1917 based 416/404 project that is still festering, then it could be handy. It's just that with a live round in there I'm unable to actually ship the action/barrel combo anywhere either.

You will still need a barrel vice of some sort
Gumpy

 

[coreydb]

You're faced with a number of possibilities, but won't know until the round is removed. The possibilities can be either a dirty or pitted/rough chamber; bad brass casing is another possibility, maybe a bad extractor.

 

[coreydb]

Another thing; you may seriously consider taking your rifle to a gunsmith to remove the round. Also ask to have the chamber polished just in case the problem is a rough chamber, and replace the extractor.

 

[BryceM]

Stuck live round in the chamber? When I first read your description, "bang" sounded you had a failure to extract a fired case. That's not that hard. Yikes. That's a trip to the gunsmith for me. The bolt is not closed? Am I reading that correctly? If it isn't in battery, it really isn't all that dangerous. Without the bolt closed there isn't a way to generate all that much pressure. If the bolt is closed, that's something to be very, very careful with, obviously.

But..... getting the case out is only half of your problems. Why is it doing that to start with? If you're not going to solve that on your own, just let a good smith work it out.

As for the Ruger...... that's also concerning. I've been reloading for 40 years and I've only had one failure of a primer to ignite. That was a VERY light firing pin impact, probably caused by some Kalahari sand where it shouldn't have been. If you're getting good indentation of the primer, a stronger spring isn't the fix. I'd suspect oil contamination around the primer, a bad batch of primers, or some other issue with your reloading process. On a dangerous game rifle, I would zero confidence until that was COMPLETELY sorted out. When the buffalo is stomping on your buddy, it's a bad time to get nothing but a click......

On the other hand, if you're getting weak impacts on the primer, the bolt either needs a good cleaning, better lube, or a stronger spring.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

So I took a rare day off yesterday to head to the range and check some stuff out, and what a mixed bag that turned out to be! I have a 375 H&H that I was putting for sale so I felt I needed to test that after a few years of storage. Then was the Ruger No 1 in 416 Rem I'd tried to test before when I got it, but had issues. Finally was a 338 Lapua that was new to me and I wanted to play with.

So the day started on the 375. This is a 1917 converted to 375, probably long before I took breaths on this planet. I had some loads worked up for it in the past and just setup at 25 yards to check the scope I had on it (scope was a recent add as I repurposed the one that had been on it). Four rounds in, four rounds in a nice tight group. Made scope adjustments, queued 4 more. Bang. Fail to chamber? Turns out that the round apparently didn't get under the extractor claw on the bolt went into the chamber and then got wedged when I unknowningly tried to close the bolt. No amount of trying to mortar it would move it, couldn't get extractor on it. Had to call that one a day.

Next up was the Ruger 416. Now, when I got it, I made some rounds, tried to test and everything just went "click" rather than "bang". Looking into it, I decided that maybe it didn't like the CCI primers I used, so I remade the rounds with Federals. However, to be complete I started off using some of my few factory loads. Figured I'd get Chrono data on those one way or the other for comparison. So 5 shots with federal primers and all went off, all happy. Then the reloads... 3 in, all good. 4th and 5th "click". Retried 4th and 5th and on second strike they went off. Then I switched to the same rounds in CCI. The first of those fired, the second didn't. No amount of restriking worked on that. So mixed results.

The Lapua on test was a Savage 110 with a Nikon FX1000 6-24 I picked up locally at a stupid good price. I just wanted to play and check it. I already have one so figured it'd be interesting to see how it did since it was probably zero'd better than my current. Threw some loads I'd made with Hornady ELD's over 82gr of H1000 and at 100 yards got about 3/4 groups. Velocity was a bit lower than I wanted, but the groups showed a lot of promise to work from. From a new to me rifle, with scope I didn't know and using a new bipod style I was happy.

So now the question is how do I unscrew the first two rifles.

The easiest is the No.1 which I think I just need to get a higher power hammer spring. I did a full disassembly and cleaning on it after my last range session with it down to cleaning the firing pin and hole and all that jazz. So maybe it's just needing 20 bucks of Wolf spring. IIRC Neumrich has that and some other things to get for a spare parts kit pretty cheap at the moment, so I think I'm going to pick them up and then take on the adventure of changing that spring. (If you've never accidentally popped the spring from the strut and wanted to get it on, 1/10 don't recommend).

The 1917 is much tougher. I immediately reached out to the guy I was talking to and basically said "sorry, I can't let this go because I discovered issues" because of integrity and all that. But how to fix. I did the highly NOT recommended dowel-in-the-barrel-and-whack-it method without results. So that basically means next option is gunsmith and take the barrel off and get some speciality tools involved (though I guess I could always just buy those). Based on the grouping I got before failure, and previous notes, the barrel is a great shooter and unless there is damage, doesn't need to be replaced. But maybe it's time to barrel swapto 458 Lott since I already have ammo and dies? Then I could just keep the barrel for later if I wanted I suppose. I've never swapped a barrel on a bolt action, let alone a 1917 that are supposed to be somewhat of a challenge but it'd be a good skill to learn. Or I could keep it simple, and just get the barrel off and sell the action, I dunno.

So what sayeth the group??

@Rez Exelon
Sound like you should have just stayed home that day. Murphy definitely didn't like you.
You had the Midas touch in reverse everything you touched turned to crap not gold.
Seriously just get that case taken out of the 375 load up some dummy round and try cycling at slow speed and high speed. As it had been stored for sometime sounds like the extractor may have got some crap under it or possibly a bit.
The Enfield can have the extractor beveled to slip over a chambered round but it can weaken the extractor in occasion.
A P14 extractor will pop straight on and be a lot better
Bob

 

[Rez Exelon]

Stuck live round in the chamber? When I first read your description, "bang" sounded you had a failure to extract a fired case. That's not that hard. Yikes. That's a trip to the gunsmith for me. The bolt is not closed? Am I reading that correctly? If it isn't in battery, it really isn't all that dangerous. Without the bolt closed there isn't a way to generate all that much pressure. If the bolt is closed, that's something to be very, very careful with, obviously.

But..... getting the case out is only half of your problems. Why is it doing that to start with? If you're not going to solve that on your own, just let a good smith work it out.

As for the Ruger...... that's also concerning. I've been reloading for 40 years and I've only had one failure of a primer to ignite. That was a VERY light firing pin impact, probably caused by some Kalahari sand where it shouldn't have been. If you're getting good indentation of the primer, a stronger spring isn't the fix. I'd suspect oil contamination around the primer, a bad batch of primers, or some other issue with your reloading process. On a dangerous game rifle, I would zero confidence until that was COMPLETELY sorted out. When the buffalo is stomping on your buddy, it's a bad time to get nothing but a click......

On the other hand, if you're getting weak impacts on the primer, the bolt either needs a good cleaning, better lube, or a stronger spring.

The live round is in the chamber, but the bolt didn't lock into it and is sitting on my workbench apart from the rifle. So that's the positive. I still don't know how much I want to chance it so I did reach out to some smiths in my area because you're right in that I need to know what the chamber looks like to really figure out what else to do with this one. to @Bob Nelson 35Whelen's point about dummy rounds --- the funny thing is that before taking it to the range, I already had done that test. I cycled about 40-60 rounds through the chamber with zero funny business. In that case I was mostly checking to make sure everything was coming properly from magwell to chamber.

The Ruger on the other hand I think is down to spring or firing pin. The CCI's and Federals I've used are known good and have had a 100% success rate on the other calibers I use them on and the rounds I tried were made fresh a few weeks ago and stored well. Since apparently I can't find a firing pin on it's own right now, I did place an order on ebay for a donor block that appears to have the pin, transfer bar, spring and other stuff on it which I can harvest. IIRC all No.1 firing pins are the same so that will let me take some comparative measurements and try that pin.

 

[cwickgo9]

Maybe I'm sitll missing a significant detail - the loaded cartridge is in the chamber. The bolt is out of the gun and sitting on the bench.
What is the risk in hitting the cartridge from the muzzle end with a dowel? Nothing is going to hit the primer from the rear.
Is there a concern compressing the bullet into the case will somehow compress the powder through the flash hole hard enough and fast enough to cause the anvil in the primer to strike? I guess in an over abundance of caution that could be possible but I would think extremely unlikely.

 

[roklok]

Both the 1917 and P14s are designed to snap the extractor over a chambered round. It sounds like your rifle was not properly set up when converted to a magnum cartridge. Either the extractor or the extractor cut in breech is not allowing the extractor to snap over rim. It also sounds like there is an issue with the round that is stuck, if everything is in spec it shouldnt take much force to tap stuck round out.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Since you have the bolt out of the gun, here's a couple of things to check. A loaded cartridge should just barely stay put on the bolt face. This is bolt from my 404J that I built on 8mm Czech 98 Mauser.

And here's the bolt face.

I was in a hurry finishing this project just two days before safari. I should polish the bolt face. Only cosmetic. The machining rings are superficial. Can't even feel them with the edge of my fingernail.

Here's a potential trouble spot. This is copied from Duwayne Wiebe's booklet "Feeding & Function of a Converted Mauser."

If you can get your hands on the booklet, it's worth a lot more than $25 he's asking for them. Just a great guy.

The spring tension on this extractor was initially excessive. I couldn't remove the extractor without prying it off with screwdriver (with difficulty!). If tension is correct, the extractor can be removed with finger pressure squeezing it against bolt shaft. The extractor would not snap over and pick up from magazine onto bolt face was rough. After relieving enough spring tension (bending extractor) to allow for finger pressure removal, the gun cycled faultlessly from magazine with consistent snap over on cartridge dropped in empty chamber.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Well, the bolt checked out, but I think at this point I'm just writing this rifle off as a loss. It's a bit due to my impatience, and wanting to see what I could do with it to be honest.

I got a bit curious and since the bolt was out I stripped it down and removed the firing pin. Then I queued the body/extractor back in because I wanted to see if it'd catch at all. I slide it in, gave what I thought was some light taps with a rubber mallet, and the stupid bolt handle cracked.

This particular bolt handle, during whatever conversion they did in yesteryear was shaved down about 1/3 off, but still, I don't believe it should have cracked with the love taps.

I don't think I want to go down the route of repairing that (although I know it can be done) along with everything else. So I think I'm just going to do whatever is required to extract the round, reassemble as a wall hanger. Maybe sell for parts. I don't know. I've never lost a single rifle before so this is new and depressing territory for me.

I probably could have waited and not gone down this road, but at the end of the day, I decided that the cost to fix versus the "cost to let go if it goes wrong" swung in favor of let go if it goes wrong.

My parts for the 416 are ordered and on the way so I'll still get to see how that goes. And I suppose this means that I get to start a new project actually taking the Sauer 90 in 375 I have out of it's NIB state and seeing how it performs.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Maybe I'm sitll missing a significant detail - the loaded cartridge is in the chamber. The bolt is out of the gun and sitting on the bench.
What is the risk in hitting the cartridge from the muzzle end with a dowel? Nothing is going to hit the primer from the rear.
Is there a concern compressing the bullet into the case will somehow compress the powder through the flash hole hard enough and fast enough to cause the anvil in the primer to strike? I guess in an over abundance of caution that could be possible but I would think extremely unlikely.

@cwickgo9
There have been recorded cases of people using the dowel and hammer method to remove stuck love round where the round has detonated. In one case the mans wife that was standing behind the rifle ( with no bolt inserted) when the round exploded part of the case hit the woman in the stomach killing her.
Remember even with no bolt these rounds are capable of generating massive pressure.
Yes it might be rare but is the risk worth your life or someone else's.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well, the bolt checked out, but I think at this point I'm just writing this rifle off as a loss. It's a bit due to my impatience, and wanting to see what I could do with it to be honest.

I got a bit curious and since the bolt was out I stripped it down and removed the firing pin. Then I queued the body/extractor back in because I wanted to see if it'd catch at all. I slide it in, gave what I thought was some light taps with a rubber mallet, and the stupid bolt handle cracked.

This particular bolt handle, during whatever conversion they did in yesteryear was shaved down about 1/3 off, but still, I don't believe it should have cracked with the love taps.

I don't think I want to go down the route of repairing that (although I know it can be done) along with everything else. So I think I'm just going to do whatever is required to extract the round, reassemble as a wall hanger. Maybe sell for parts. I don't know. I've never lost a single rifle before so this is new and depressing territory for me.

I probably could have waited and not gone down this road, but at the end of the day, I decided that the cost to fix versus the "cost to let go if it goes wrong" swung in favor of let go if it goes wrong.

My parts for the 416 are ordered and on the way so I'll still get to see how that goes. And I suppose this means that I get to start a new project actually taking the Sauer 90 in 375 I have out of it's NIB state and seeing how it performs.

@Rez Exelon
Today is your lucky day. The rifle is not a write off and it would be disappointing to see it become a wall hanger.

I just happen to be in the possession of a bolt for your rifle. I can't remember if it's a P14 or M17 bolt. If it's a P14 bolt all you would have to do is use the firing pin from yours and screw it straight in and then get the headspace checked.
If you are interested PM me and we will work something out for you. I have sent parts to the USA before without issue. They are a hard to get item but you are in need so no problem
Bob

 

[roklok]

Here is an idea. If you remove the extractor from the bolt, will the bolt close ? I realize this may be difficult if the bolt handle is broken. If the bolt without extractor will close, simply fire the round, then there are no safety issues removing empty case with a cleaning rod or dowel.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Here is an idea. If you remove the extractor from the bolt, will the bolt close ? I realize this may be difficult if the bolt handle is broken. If the bolt without extractor will close, simply fire the round, then there are no safety issues removing empty case with a cleaning rod or dowel.

You know that's an interesting idea.

@Rez Exelon
Today is your lucky day. The rifle is not a write off and it would be disappointing to see it become a wall hanger.

I just happen to be in the possession of a bolt for your rifle. I can't remember if it's a P14 or M17 bolt. If it's a P14 bolt all you would have to do is use the firing pin from yours and screw it straight in and then get the headspace checked.
If you are interested PM me and we will work something out for you. I have sent parts to the USA before without issue. They are a hard to get item but you are in need so no problem
Bob

That is a super, incredible offer. I don't know that I can accept offhand though. This thing needs enough work that I'd be leery of accepting such generosity without knowing that I can complete the project the way I would need to. I'll have to probably take a few days to assess and get past the depression this is inflicting to take an honest appraisal of the state of things.