Primitive North American Stone Weaponry - Mysteries

[rookhawk]

I can’t find a place on the Net to discuss this, so I figured this would be as good of a place as any.

There is a Native American artifact known as a banner stone that is fairly rare. Feel free to google them.

So the mystery is that for centuries nobody really knew what they were for, hence they called them banner stones because they looked like medieval banners made of stone with a drilled hole in them to be placed on a stick.

Anyway, I got one with a collection of Georgia artifacts and went deep down the rabbit hole of trying to figure these things out.

What science presently believes:

1.) They were made between 6000-10000 years ago. Not before. Not since.
2.) Many burial sites showed them adjacent to ATL ATL spears, so consensus is they are part of an ATL ATL system
3.) People have tried to recreate them and use them to figure out their beneficial use. Tests with them by expert ATL ATL throwers found they had no benefit and they reduced accuracy.

Modern paleontologists have a consensus hypothesis that they were used to add weight to the ATL ATL so it would sit cocked in a more stable position, thus allowing the hunter to remain motionless for longer durations before throwing their weapon. This consensus opinion isn’t really based on any good science I can see.

So here’s my musings on what they might be for, I’d love for others that are interested or familiar with them to chime in to debunk my idea.

I think they were a tool for killing mega fauna. The timeline of their use coincides with extinctions of our mega fauna, and their extinction would explain why they became obsolete long before the introduction of the bow and arrow.

Guesses as to how they work? I think they were actually thrown, rather than being hewn into the ATL ATL handle. This would possibly provide a few benefits. They are heavy, so it would introduce a great deal of momentum to the projectile. It also is a wing such as used on medieval spears, so it would stop over penetration. Lastly, I was thinking it might have been attached loosely to the spear so it would detach upon impact.

Why do I have these bizarre hypotheses? I was looking at the huge Clovis points used for killing mammoths and they are just ridiculous. Ridiculously hard to make, incredibly heavy to lug around, very fragile due to their size. The Clovis peoples 13000 years ago were forced to make very labor intensive speciality spears to kill mega fauna, whereas this newer design would allow the use of regular spear points. Just like dangerous game arrows, you can use the same broadhead for deer as you do for buffalo, the only difference is the total arrow weight that gives more penetration to one than the other. This theory would result in far less labor to make spears since a spear could kill mega fauna or a deer, just by swapping out the banner stone if it isn’t needed for more KE and momentum.

A banner stone is crazy hard to make, but certainly more durable and reusable than a huge mega fauna spear point. Interestingly enough, burial sites show these, often broken by man in some ceremonial fashion when the person was interred. Clearly our human ancestors thought they were a really big deal.

So, thats my hair brained idea. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[VertigoBE]

Well.. you learn something every day...

@rookhawk, do I understand correctly that you envision this banner stone to be attached, lashed to the spear, just behind the spear point, in order to give more weight to an otherwise light hunting spear? A bit like the ball of a weighted Roman pilum?

 

[rookhawk]

Well.. you learn something every day...

@rookhawk, do I understand correctly that you envision this banner stone to be attached, lashed to the spear, just behind the spear point, in order to give more weight to an otherwise light hunting spear? A bit like the ball of a weighted Roman pilum?

View attachment 629656

Exactly right. But I’ve found no archaeologist supporting my idea at all.

I also had a typo. These stones were used from 6000BC to 1000BC, so they died out before the bow and arrow I believe was a mainstay. So what was so important to carry these around in that 5000 year period?

Some say they were used for spinning, either to make fires or make cordage. That seems dumb to me, I can make a fly wheel out of dense wood in an hour, one of these stones would take weeks to make. To drill out the shaft, they would use a reed dipped in sandy clay, working for countless hours to make a perfect hole through the stone. So expensive to make, surely they had to have had a use worthy of such a caloric tax?

 

[grand veneur]

At first glance, these artifacts remind me of clubs, but primarily made for ceremonial purposes, or maybe scepters. I don't see a practical use for hunting for example, as the production of such artifacts was extremely difficult at the time and was therefore only made for very special occasions or for dignitaries.

 

[VertigoBE]

So expensive to make, surely they had to have had a use worthy of such a caloric tax?

There is one human activity that is even more exalted and revered than hunting throughout the ages, and that would be warfare.

As the cost of making such a stone is so high, yet once made they do not disintegrate as fast as the spearpoint itself during use and it is rendering the spear much more deadly. A case could be made that each warrior would have a special relationship with this piece of his equipment. They can even be a bit personalized as to the shape, rendering any spear, their spear, the spear with which they vanquished x number of enemies.

 

[fourfive8]

Like a friend, who is an expert on US Civil War arms says, “The real experts on the subject died a long time ago”.

The variety of forms and sizes suggest, logically, all such stones were not for same purpose. My first thought about them is that many were ceremonial amulets. Other such stones seem to hint at being the head for a club- either hafted/ lashed to a handle or secured to a handle in a rawhide pouch.

Some experts suggest some forms of them were used as counter weights for atlatl throwing sticks. I can understand the physics of that theory. However my instinct says it would be counterproductive to use them to add mass to the projectile itself. On related subject, IMO, most large projectile points like the Folsom and Clovis types, theoretically used for megafauna, were not cast or thrown by hand, bow or atlatl but were used on thrusting spears to “finish off” large game that had been otherwise incapacitated. But I am no expert of any kind, so anyone’s guess about such as the mystery “banner stones” is as good as anyone else’s.

 

[93marlin]

@rookhawk
In the photos shown, there's one thing in common. The hole. That alone would preclude those from being used as a weapon. That hole is a weak area.
My first thoughts, they are decorative.
I my small collection of stone tools and points, there a couple that seem to to have HAD a hole at some time.
My maternal grandfather had a very few decorative pieces, delicate and fairly small. That said, he did know where there was a burial mound that had several more decorative pieces in it, the mound had been partially opened by an uprooted tree,
Ancient peoples, by necessity, would not want to carry heavy items in to any warfare scenarios. Leaving any decorative pieces behind.
Just my 2¢.....

 

[grand veneur]

Similar objects are found in graves of the Neolithic and early Bronze Age in the Balkans, the Aegean, Anatolia and also Egypt, all of which are clearly identified as scepters or various ceremonial objects.

Without written evidence in prehistoric cultures, one can never say with certainty what these objects ultimately served for. That's why the door remain open to all speculation.

 

[fourfive8]

No matter the unknown truth of function, many such objects will continue to pique the imagination for sure. Agreed, much will remain uncertain— the world wouldn’t be very interesting without mystery. Forgot to mention about a thought I’ve had about some of the so called banner stones. Some appear similar to many types of spinning whorls for making thread or cordage.

As a mystery show and tell example, I have a large cubic (SW US) block of sandstone that weighs at least 10 pounds. Unknown pre-Colombian date… It has hafting grooves encircling it- both directions. Much too large for a mallet head- a mystery to me. I’ll post a pic after I get home.

Parallel designs of tools are also interesting. A few years ago, I found several metates with manos in south central Zimbabwe identical to the ones common to the southwestern US.

 

[Altitude sickness]

My uneducated guess is these are a ceremonial war club.

I’ve made Native American War clubs copying the style made in different regions.

I made this one from one of my cherry trees. It’s a ceremonial Ball war club

 

[Altitude sickness]

This style is more Northeastern tribes

A Gunstock War club.

I made this one from 150 year old American Chestnut

 

[Red Leg]

Pre-columbian native artifacts are fascinating. After a rain, at about the four to six foot level along our bank of the San Gabriel, we have found a number of Kinney projectile or knife points (bit of debate - some think they were knives and others, including me, believe they were atlatl dart points - perhaps both.) The culture apparently did not make pottery, so all we have or the tools. They are dated 3000 to 2000 BC.

The stemmed points are older, as much as 10,000 BC, and likely represent as many as three overlapping Central Texas cultures who lived in what in the region's river valleys including our place on the San Gabriel. The tool is either a club head, hand club, or scraper. It could have been any number of cultures.

Finally the metate with mano are from about fifty miles north of Alpine, TX. I literally did a faceplant when I hit the base while walking through a brushy draw hunting Aoudad. The landowner said I had earned it and was kind enough to gift it to me. We discovered the grinding stone just a few feet away. Those from that area are also quite old. The region has not seen a corn growing climate for thousands of years.

I have never encountered a banner stone and they seem to be very rare among Texas pre-Columbian cultures.

 

[fourfive8]

Both of these are pre-Colombian SW US. Here’s the large cube mentioned earlier that has hafting grooves in two directions- much too heavy and large for a club or mallet. The only possibility I can come up with is a two person “mano” grinding stone? The second photo is a spheroid, about 2” diameter, chipped, rounded off edges made of limestone. Only possibilities I can think of- a club head that would have been enclosed in rawhide pouch attached to handle or a sling projectile.

 

[rookhawk]

Both of these are pre-Colombian SW US. Here’s the large cube mentioned earlier that has hafting grooves in two directions- much too heavy and large for a club or mallet. The only possibility I can come up with is a two person “mano” grinding stone? The second photo is a spheroid, about 2” diameter, chipped, rounded off edges made of limestone. Only possibilities I can think of- a club head that would have been enclosed in rawhide pouch attached to handle or a sling projectile.

View attachment 629762
View attachment 629763

It could have been more of an anvil if its huge. It would be handy to use to tie a lashing above it and a wood wedge, and continuously draw arrow/spear shafts through it. Either to straighten, or profiling could be accomplished with it.

 

[fourfive8]

For bison and megafauna. A knife and a fluted Clovis. Approx 6”

 

[rookhawk]

I should mention in case I didn't earlier, the banner stones have been found repeatedly in situ with atlatls so the conclusion archaeologically is they are either part of that, or are part of a standard complement an atlatl hunter would have with them.

While banner stones all have a central drilled hole, they come in a variety of shapes from butterfly profiles to squares. They are all two-dimensionally symmetrical.

I find it very odd and interesting that it only existed in the Eastern half of North America, and only for a narrow Paleolithic period of time. That period would be after the mammoth, but while there were still a fair amount of large creatures that are now extinct. If I was facing a defiant, dominant large creature at close range, I'd definitely prefer throwing a projectile that weighs pounds rather than ounces.

 

[grand veneur]

I am not an expert on North American ancient cultures, but artifacts like the banner-stones from the period about 3000-1000 BC can only be found in the southeast of the USA because, as far as I know, this area was also in this period the first home of agriculture and thus sedentary cultures that were able to develop certain techniques that one need to process the stones. One don't seem to know how it all went on again. There was no Neolithic in America as we define it in Eurasia, because there was never a transition to a time when metal was primarily worked, like bronze age and iron age. Many cultures emerged, but have perished again due to a lack of technological transfer from other cultures. This event is typical for many ancients American cultures, be it in North, Central or Southern America. Unfortunately, the continent was isolated for thousands of years. That would also explain why the banner-stones were only produced during a limited time. At some point this culture disappeared again, but in all probability it was not a hunter-gatherer culture.

 

[rookhawk]

Here's the collection of pieces I've got. You can see the bannerstone in one of the photos. I need to find nice display cases to properly present them. I believe all of these were from Georgia by the inference many of the tools are labeled as such.

 

[steve white]

For bison and megafauna. A knife and a fluted Clovis. Approx 6”
View attachment 629766

I grew up in Big Sandy, in NE Tx, which was known for mining...sand. One of the dredgers hit an area containing many Indian artifacts. His kids would bring arrow heads to school to sell for 10 cents apiece. Billy Poor, one of the parents, was smart enough to talk to the dredger and offer to buy anything he found for substantially more. He had several 6 or 7 inch fluted Clovis as shown above in a glass case along with many arrow heads and even some pottery. Us kids? We dropped most of the arrow heads accidentally on the concrete sidewalks where they inevitably broke in two... There are a number of large burial mounds on private property which thankfully have been protected by the land owners.

A great place to walk for such things is the Sulpher river just south of Paris, TX on the highway leading to Greenville. It washes out fresh ones when it rains and then conveniently returns to a mere trickle over rock and clay making it easy just to walk down the river bed.

 

[steve white]

I am not an expert on North American ancient cultures, but artifacts like the banner-stones from the period about 3000-1000 BC can only be found in the southeast of the USA because, as far as I know, this area was also in this period the first home of agriculture and thus sedentary cultures that were able to develop certain techniques that one need to process the stones. One don't seem to know how it all went on again. There was no Neolithic in America as we define it in Eurasia, because there was never a transition to a time when metal was primarily worked, like bronze age and iron age. Many cultures emerged, but have perished again due to a lack of technological transfer from other cultures. This event is typical for many ancients American cultures, be it in North, Central or Southern America. Unfortunately, the continent was isolated for thousands of years. That would also explain why the banner-stones were only produced during a limited time. At some point this culture disappeared again, but in all probability it was not a hunter-gatherer culture.

Don't forget copper works in North America. Though many were around the Great Lakes, the southeast had its share. Rudimentary copper digs have been found from before the time of Pocahantas. There is a new theory that the lost settlers of Roanoke were taken as "beaters of copper" by the Indians who valued copper ornamentation. That skill would have been one of few which would have saved them, made them valuable to keep alive.