Pre-64 Winchester M70 - 9.3x64?

[Professor Mawla]

Non-original barrel and a custom project? I’m doubtful that’s an original Winchester produced 10.75

@Certus
Correct . It was rebarrelled with a Pac Noir custom barrel . However , Winchester Western’s 1947 catalog has an advertisement where the 10.75x68 mm Mauser , 7x64 mm Mauser , 8x64 mm Mauser and 9.3x64 mm Brenekke are listed as available offerings . I will try to get ahold of the advertisement and post it over here . I am confident , however that the rifle shown by @deewayne2003 is an original factory offering . It shows all of the little signs .

 

[Professor Mawla]

yes certus.
the stamping is very untypical for a winchester on the 10.75.
the stamping on the 9.3x64 does look typical.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
Correct . The barrel is from Pac Noir .

 

[Certus]

@Certus
Correct . It was rebarrelled with a Pac Noir custom barrel . However , Winchester Western’s 1947 catalog has an advertisement where the 10.75x68 mm Mauser , 7x64 mm Mauser , 8x64 mm Mauser and 9.3x64 mm Brenekke are listed as available offerings . I will try to get ahold of the advertisement and post it over here . I am confident , however that the rifle shown by @deewayne2003 is an original factory offering . It shows all of the little signs .

Understood

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Thank you, HWL!

 

[steve white]

Everybody touts the 9.3x62, but the x64 is a quantum leap up in power!

 

[deewayne2003]

Professor Mawla - Could you possibly be mistaken about the year of the catalog, might it have been a Winchester 1937 catalog?

I ask because I researched the serial # of the rifle and it appears that it was manufactured if the early part of 1938(first 10% of rifles built for that year by serial number range)

I have read articles stating that Winchester made very few metric caliber rifles just prior to WWII in an attempt to enter the European market and the onslaught of world war 2 and the events leading up to it had halted the marketing campaign.

 

[deewayne2003]

Everybody touts the 9.3x62, but the x64 is a quantum leap up in power!

100% Correct

9.3x64 = .366 cal 286gr bullet @ 2700-2800fps

.375 H&H = 300gr bullet @ 2500-2600fps

And the 9.3x64 is in a 30-06 length action!

 

[Professor Mawla]

Professor Mawla - Could you possibly be mistaken about the year of the catalog, might it have been a Winchester 1937 catalog?

I ask because I researched the serial # of the rifle and it appears that it was manufactured if the early part of 1938(first 10% of rifles built for that year by serial number range)

I have read articles stating that Winchester made very few metric caliber rifles just prior to WWII in an attempt to enter the European market and the onslaught of world war 2 and the events leading up to it had halted the marketing campaign.

@deewayne2003
1937 is very plausible for your pictured rifle . However , I do know for a fact that the advertisement which I had seen was from a post war 1947 catalog . It is entirely possible that Winchester provided these offerings more than once . First time in 1937 . Second time in 1947 .

 

[Areaonereal]

Teaising us ......you are one lucky person

 

[bruce moulds]

100% Correct

9.3x64 = .366 cal 286gr bullet @ 2700-2800fps

.375 H&H = 300gr bullet @ 2500-2600fps

And the 9.3x64 is in a 30-06 length action!

2800 might be a bit optimistic for a 286 gn in the x64 in std length barrels.
bruce.

 

[HWL]

@deewayne2003
1937 is very plausible for your pictured rifle . However , I do know for a fact that the advertisement which I had seen was from a post war 1947 catalog . It is entirely possible that Winchester provided these offerings more than once . First time in 1937 . Second time in 1947 .

Germans, Germany and German products were not very popular around the world in 1947....

It makes me wonder, that Winchester offered calibers like 7x64, 8x64S, 9,3x64 or 10,75x68 in 1947......

No American factory ammunition was available at this time, and German ammunition factorys were annihilated by B17 bombers....

HWL

 

[Von S.]

A clean cut guy brought a pre64 in to the crowded store on a really nice Saturday afternoon in the late 80s chambered in 264 which put a smile on my face.

He had a great story of how his father had it custom made in 1950 and then was struck feeble by a illness that he contracted in the Pacific during the war. In 65 he passed away and all were so grief struck that the rifle remained in the closet until his mother passed away just a few years earlier.

I looked him in the eye and said how I was sorry for his grief and that before he attempts to peddle off something so obvious faked he should have done his homework as the 264 round did come out for a few years later and the serial of the action put it in the early 6os.

I bought the rifle very cheap and use it even now.

Counterfeit oddball caliber pre 64s were in great numbers and even higher demand before Winchester went back to the old design.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Germans, Germany and German products were not very popular around the world in 1947....

It makes me wonder, that Winchester offered calibers like 7x64, 8x64S, 9,3x64 or 10,75x68 in 1947......

No American factory ammunition was available at this time, and German ammunition factorys were annihilated by B17 bombers....

HWL

@HWL
That is very true . But ICI Kynoch was definitely making factory loaded ammunition for at least some of the German sporting calibres in 1947 . Definitely 10.75x68 mm Mauser .

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello Steve,

From the ballistic viewpoint, I do not agree about the 9,3x64 is a quantum leap over the 9,3x62. The difference between the 9,3x62 vs. 9,3x64, HANDLOADED to the same pressure in rifles with the same barrel length is not more than 100 f/s with almost all bullet weights. There are not magics in ballistics because of a "name"! Another thing is to compare factory ammunition because this two cartridges are loaded at different pressure standards. Something very similar happens comparing FACTORY cartridges in 7x57 and 7x64 vs. handloads for both, at same pressure and barrel length.
Also, all else being the same: barrel length, pressure, et al, the 9,3x64 is NOT a .375 H&H. It falls just in the middle between the 9,3x62 and the .375 H&H.
I said this because the case capacity of the three, 9,3x62, 9,3x64 and .375 H&H are, roughly: 74 grs, 84 grs, and 95 grs in that order.
So, loaded at the same pressure in barrels of the same length, it impossible to get the same maximum safe velocity of the .375 H&H with the 9,3x64 Brenneke with same bullet weight. Of course the same velocity can be approached using 286 vs 300 grs respectively.
Anyway, I like the 9,3x64 the best of this trio including 9,3x62 and .375 H&H! I have both, a 9,3x62 and a .375 H&H. If the source for cartridges and cases for the 9,3x64 were more common, or easy to get, I would happily replace the former two by a 9,3x64!

Good luck!

CF

 

[bruce moulds]

clodo,
you can get over 2600 fps with a 286 gn in the x64, and probably approaching 2700.
i could not do that with a 300 gn 375.
2550 to 2600 is doable with 300 gn swift in the x64.
at that speed the 9.3 300 grainer is carrying the same energy as the same wt 375 factory load, and has more sectional density.
the 286 gn 9.3 has the same sectional density and goes faster.
what does all this mean?
nothing.
when i have shot next to a 375 when culling camels, we cannot tell the difference in terminal performance.
both are good cartridges in the same league, given a fair bullet choice.
the 9.3 fits in a 30/06 length action well.
maybe the rws 9.3x64 brass takes more pressure?
pick your poison.
bruce.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi bruce,

One can do everything. What one can't do is to avoid the consequences!
With around 10 grs of difference in case volume capacity between 9,3x64 and .375 H&H, there is no way to reach the same performance without different pressure, different barrel length, or both!

Best!

CF

 

[bruce moulds]

clodo,
i speak from experience loading both, and always steer well clear of trouble.
bruce.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello Bruce,

I cannot argue against your experience! As you said, perhaps the RWS cases are able to take more pressure without the traditional signs. The RWS brass are strong in almost all cartridges, specially in the 8x68 and 9,3x64. For these two, the bases of the cases are very thick and strong!!
Anyway, the case volume difference between the Brenneke and the H&H, of around 10 grs of powder in favor of the H&H, are there no matter what!

Best!

CF

 

[HWL]

@HWL
That is very true . But ICI Kynoch was definitely making factory loaded ammunition for at least some of the German sporting calibres in 1947 . Definitely 10.75x68 mm Mauser .
View attachment 365061

Your are right...

What I wanted to say is, that it was "unusual" that Winchester offered something very "german" at this very special time....

American veterans even had problems to feed their 8mm Mauser war trophies and created a 8mm-06.

HWL

 

[HWL]

7x57 Mauser vs 7x64 Brenneke and 9,3x62 vs 9,3x64 is a popular campfire discussion in Germany.

The way the x64 cartridges create their improved performance is higher pressure, more case volume AND longer barrels.

7x64 and 9,3x64 performance is traditionally measured form 65 cm barrels, x57 and x62 go with 60 cm!

All togehter, it makes a difference.


HWL