Poor Man's Hydros

[cmk]

Getting a bit bored with the quarantine situation, a few ideas (not all good) starts popping into your head. This is probably not one of the really good ideas, but it was at least fun to try.

Having started to play around with casting bullets, I also wanted to try making jacketed bullets. With the help of a mechanically gifted member of another forum, I tried some bullets with jackets made out of pistol brass. This went above expectation, and the initial results are documented here: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/cheap-practice-bullets.55522/#post-644741

However, that batch did not last long, so I wanted to try something different - the Poor Man's Hydros.

Made out of a not one, but two pieces of brass. A gently crimped, half-filled (of lead) 40 S&W case with a fully filled 38 Super case inserted. Then heated with the propane torch so that the cores melt into one. Apply a slight pressure until molten lead starts oozing out. Try to keep inserted case as straight as possible.

This being a totally manual and very much trial-and-error process, (somtimes the bullet had to be re-heated to correct the straightness - losing a bit of lead in the process) the weights produced were a bit uneven - ranging from 377 to 430 grains. I gave up after making half a dozen.

So as an experiment, it was quite fun, but I don't expect much in the accuracy department. The nose is quite a bit smaller than the bore, and also probably has a bit of run-out. And there is no way to know if the core solidified in a uniform way, but I guess that they are not all perfectly balanced.

Would they have the terminal ballistics of Hydros? Very unlikely.
Are they really an alternative to the Hydros? No.
Would I use them on any game animal? Most certainly not.
Do they look at least a little like Hydros? Maybe. If you squint.
Are you bored? Yes.

It remains to be seen if they will even hit the target at the range. The picture above is just for the catalog, no powder yet. Since all bullets have a unique weight, I'll have to figure out individual loads for each bullet, and hope that they will hit the same piece of paper.

At any rate, I don't think Woodleigh will be going out of business because of this.

/cmk

 

[Tra3]

Something about this seems delightfully dangerous. I would stand behind a tree, or some other protection on the first few rounds.

 

[Alistair]

I'm with Tra3.

Ingenious, but risky, I'd say.

Do you know the malleability of the brass versus the usual gilding metal of a round? I'd worry that it's going to have quite a pressure spike driving the 40S&W case into the rifling. Do yo expect to get a decent gas seal on the rim? I wonder if the primer will deform or blow through? So many exciting questions!

I also suspect that these will tumble almost immediately if the lead isn't uniformly spread into the bottom of the case.

Still, all good fun.

What velocity you aiming for? I'd be very interested to see one of the recovered rounds post firing if you can manage it?

Al.

 

[cmk]

Bullet swaging using brass cases as jackets is not new. My personal experience thus far is limited though. See my post in the other thread linked above. Correctly annealed and sized bullets made of a single 40 S&W case, at 2500 fps. 1,5" group at 100m. Chronographed velocity was very close to calculation (which used a conservative load pressure-wise)

I dont think that these bullets are harder than an A-Frame, or a copper-plated, steel-jacketed FMJ. They are sized to .422 - same as Woodleigh FMJ's, and the actual Hydros. So I'm not really too worried about excessive pressure. Will not load for silly speeds, though. Safety glasses on.

These are a bit heavier, but say somewhere between 2100 and 2250 sounds reasonable. Not sure I would be able to find it after firing, or tell it from the other scrap. It's just soft lead covered in softened brass. I will look though, but it will be at least a week until I have time to try them out.

EDIT: typos, grammar and clarification

 

[Bearbait1]

Looks like fun.

 

[Badboymelvin]

Bored or not - good on you for having a go!

Keep us posted on how everything goes

Cheers,

Russ

 

[cmk]

Thanks for the support, guys.

This very minute, were things different, I'd be stepping off a plane in Windhoek.

/cmk

 

[Dr Ray]

Getting a bit bored with the quarantine situation, a few ideas (not all good) starts popping into your head. This is probably not one of the really good ideas, but it was at least fun to try.

Having started to play around with casting bullets, I also wanted to try making jacketed bullets. With the help of a mechanically gifted member of another forum, I tried some bullets with jackets made out of pistol brass. This went above expectation, and the initial results are documented here: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/cheap-practice-bullets.55522/#post-644741

However, that batch did not last long, so I wanted to try something different - the Poor Man's Hydros.

View attachment 340556
Made out of a not one, but two pieces of brass. A gently crimped, half-filled (of lead) 40 S&W case with a fully filled 38 Super case inserted. Then heated with the propane torch so that the cores melt into one. Apply a slight pressure until molten lead starts oozing out. Try to keep inserted case as straight as possible.

View attachment 340557
This being a totally manual and very much trial-and-error process, (somtimes the bullet had to be re-heated to correct the straightness - losing a bit of lead in the process) the weights produced were a bit uneven - ranging from 377 to 430 grains. I gave up after making half a dozen.

So as an experiment, it was quite fun, but I don't expect much in the accuracy department. The nose is quite a bit smaller than the bore, and also probably has a bit of run-out. And there is no way to know if the core solidified in a uniform way, but I guess that they are not all perfectly balanced.

Would they have the terminal ballistics of Hydros? Very unlikely.
Are they really an alternative to the Hydros? No.
Would I use them on any game animal? Most certainly not.
Do they look at least a little like Hydros? Maybe. If you squint.
Are you bored? Yes.

View attachment 340558

It remains to be seen if they will even hit the target at the range. The picture above is just for the catalog, no powder yet. Since all bullets have a unique weight, I'll have to figure out individual loads for each bullet, and hope that they will hit the same piece of paper.

At any rate, I don't think Woodleigh will be going out of business because of this.

/cmk

Sure is a bit different.
You’re not a retired engineer by any chance??

 

[cmk]

Thanks for the confidence, but no. Neither engineer nor retired. Just a bit curious.

 

[GuttormG]

I love the idea and as a result of your first experiment I got hold of some .40 cases. Mt to-do-list is long, very long so not sure when I will try it out.
On the other hand, the 40cases do not come cheap, quite unusual caliber over here, so the economy in this is questionable. But fun, yes-i am sure!

 

[Timbo]

Something about this seems delightfully dangerous. I would stand behind a tree, or some other protection on the first few rounds.

Dont mean to drag the thread down, but this reminds me of a reloader I met 2-3 times, when I was a kid, but who was a mad keen experimenter. He'd go off on some tangent and cook up a load that wasn't in the books. But later while in conversation with others, he'd casually ask them if they'd like to see how accurate a reload from his batch would be!! I don't know how many took up this dangerous offer - but we soon broke all contact with him because, as we were told, the bastard would be using YOU, firing YOUR rifle, to try out HIS experiments!! Unbelievable!! Once this got around, he was ostracized from shooting circles here, and left with a very few who'd associate with him.

 

[cmk]

I love the idea and as a result of your first experiment I got hold of some .40 cases. Mt to-do-list is long, very long so not sure when I will try it out.
On the other hand, the 40cases do not come cheap, quite unusual caliber over here, so the economy in this is questionable. But fun, yes-i am sure!

Yep, agree that it does not seem very common on our side of of the pond. At least when I look in the brass bins at the pistol ranges close to me. All 22LR and 9mm. Some 45 ACP. I believe that it is used to some extent in IPSC, but maybe that is only in my imagination - I don't know anybody who competes in that.

10 mm Auto seems like a very rare thing, not to even mention the 10 mm Magnum (which is a lengthened 10 mm Auto). The latter one should be perfect since it is just over a centimeter longer (0.4") than the .40 S&W.

.41 Remington Magnum would also be a good candidate, if I had a way of getting rid of the rim. But I don't even know if that is a popular revolver cartridge here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm_caliber

I think new cases can probably be ordered, but that sort of goes against the idea of cheap plinking ammo.

You can always cast your own, but since wheel weights and linotype are pretty much gone now, it could well be that you're stuck with lead so soft that you cannot drive it at any remotely decent rifle speed.

 

[cmk]

Dont mean to drag the thread down, but this reminds me of a reloader I met 2-3 times, when I was a kid, but who was a mad keen experimenter. He'd go off on some tangent and cook up a load that wasn't in the books. But later while in conversation with others, he'd casually ask them if they'd like to see how accurate a reload from his batch would be!! I don't know how many took up this dangerous offer - but we soon broke all contact with him because, as we were told, the bastard would be using YOU, firing YOUR rifle, to try out HIS experiments!! Unbelievable!! Once this got around, he was ostracized from shooting circles here, and left with a very few who'd associate with him.

No offense taken, and I'm sure none is intended. See this (Hydro-)experimenting purely as a sign of boredom and "what if...". Not at all interested in UltimateMegaPerformanceHyperVelocity loads, so I will stay well below any remotely high pressures. Also, I only have two eyes and 10 fingers - and I intend to keep them all. And I will be the one pulling the trigger if I find that it is beyond reasonable doubt safe to do so.

The discussion on swaging 'regular' bullets in the other thread regarding cheap plinking bullets (linked above) is more straightforward.

Anyways, deeper discussions regarding these matters are probably better had in forums dedicated to bullet casting and swaging. I just wanted to share what I played around with the other day, since this is probably one of the few hunting/shooting forums where the majority have even heard of Hydros.

 

[GuttormG]

I am casting for my 404 (and most others!) but always fun to try something new.

 

[Timbo]

No offense taken, and I'm sure none is intended. See this (Hydro-)experimenting purely as a sign of boredom and "what if...". Not at all interested in UltimateMegaPerformanceHyperVelocity loads, so I will stay well below any remotely high pressures. Also, I only have two eyes and 10 fingers - and I intend to keep them all. And I will be the one pulling the trigger if I find that it is beyond reasonable doubt safe to do so.

The discussion on swaging 'regular' bullets in the other thread regarding cheap plinking bullets (linked above) is more straightforward.

Anyways, deeper discussions regarding these matters are probably better had in forums dedicated to bullet casting and swaging. I just wanted to share what I played around with the other day, since this is probably one of the few hunting/shooting forums where the majority have even heard of Hydros.

I only mentioned it as your "What if" triggered my memory that's all. But I've heard of guys manufacturing their own jacketed bullets using old cases, though I dont have a clue how it's done.

 

[CAustin]

Be safe! I think the stand behind a tree is the right idea!

 

[cmk]

Being cautious, careful and meticulous when reloading is always a good thing. Especially when doing something for the first time. However, in this case I expect the worst that can happen is horrible accuracy.

But I thank you for your concern, and I will run some simultations to see what the expected pressures may be like. Measure, weigh, measure again etc. If for some reason it seems unsafe, I'll just skip it.

/cmk

 

[postoak]

What makes these hydros? What is the definition of a hydro? Have you ever thought about making paper-patched cast lead alloy bullets?

You can still buy linotype metal off of Ebay, although I don't know if that is a good price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-lbs-Pri...768157?hash=item23d46cfe5d:g:CJ0AAOSw8mRdjmZJ

 

[GuttormG]

Both Linotype and Monotype (and most other mixes) are availabe from suppliers in 100pound ingots.

 

[IvW]

Eish....would not let this down one of my rifle barrels.....