Politics

[375 Ruger Fan]

Is this year evidence of the fall of our nation?

I was an infant during the bicentennial so I don't remember it, but I remember every family photo in every house showing enormous gatherings. Flags everywhere. I remember the obsession with Colonial and Federal motifs, furniture, decor, and revival architecture. I remember as a young child all those "Spirit of '76" objects festooned in homes and government buildings well into the mid-1980s.

I then reflect as a kid of the 1980s where all the small towns had their sesquicentennial celebrations. The dragged out all the old props and decorations they threw into municipal storage a decade earlier and they reused them for major State & Local milestones once more. Little drummer boys. Federal eagles and globes. Colonial flags.

Well, we're 16 days from the nation's 250th birthday and I see literally nothing. Maybe less than a dozen of the 250th celebration flags in retail stores. I saw a few items at retail stores where the paper adverts showed the logo for the 250th but even the merchandise decided to tread lightly with simply red, white, and blue colors and no logos or tag lines. (e.g. Yeti mugs)

There is no build up. No hype. No bipartisan pride. No revival of movies celebrating the founders or their era. No movement towards the architecture and styles that abounded 1976 revival of 1776. In general, it seems as understated and typical as any other summer in any other year.

Is this an indication that patriotism or passion for the American experiment is dying?

I was in high school for the bicentennial. You're right, it was a big, big deal. The 250th, not so much.

 

[Big_Easy]

I wonder if there arent regional issues with this, and in other places where immigrant labor really hasnt ever had a huge presence if its an issue at all?

as an example, I was in Montana a couple of weeks ago.. while we were there, there was a calf branding going on, so we stopped by to check it out..

the entire community came together to help the rancher with his branding.. my understanding is this is how it works for all of the ranchers.. they all help each other out.. its something of a community social event.. after the day of work is done they all have a big meal together, drink some beer, etc.. etc..

I saw probably 60-70 people.. of all ages... literally young teens to old men and women.. ALL LOCALS, zero immigrants.. all working their asses off roping calves, taking them to the ground, branding, doctoring, etc.. etc.. and they spent all day doing it..

None of them were afraid of getting dirty or putting in a hard day of work.. they were busting their butts.. covered in dirt, sweat, and a good bit of blood before it was over with.. and all appeared super happy to be doing it..

I dont doubt that there are ranches and farms that cant find labor.. I have heard enough people complain about it to 100% believe that it is a real problem for some folks..

But I didnt see it as much of a problem in Montana while I was there.. I roamed all around the area for 4 days.. went into the little town pretty much every day.. went to a town festival over the weekend.. attended the branding.. and hung around several ranchers while I was there.. I never saw anyone that appeared to be an immigrant.. and never heard anyone speak to having a labor shortage there..

Now go take those Montana ranchers and put them in the Florida sun for 14 hours a day, 6 days a week picking strawberries and tomatoes for $5/hr...I wonder how long they'd last?

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I was in high school for the bicentennial. You're right, it was a big, big deal. The 250th, not so much.

I was 9; I remember it being a huge deal, even if I didn't fully understand why.

 

[Brent in Az]

 

[Big_Easy]

You can’t pay a living wage for a job that was never designed to support an adult, fruit picking and burger flipping are jobs for teenagers that are still subsidized by their parents not career paths. If someone doesn’t have the ambition to rise above that rung on the employment ladder why should we all be forced to support them?

And I might agree with you had shareholder value theory not demanded the outsourcing of 5-7 million manufacturing jobs, and millions more associated jobs. The restaurant sector is now one of the largest employment sectors in America. With almost 16 million workers, roughly 10% of the entire US labor force. As other jobs are outsourced or replaced with robots and AI, these numbers will only get bigger.

Henry Ford figured out that paying his workers more, and reducing their hours would actually increase demand for his product, and thus his profits in the long run. Only 40 years later his own son had to re-learn that same lesson...

"...CIO President Walter Reuther was being shown through the Ford Motor plant in Cleveland recently.
A company executive proudly pointed to some new automatically controlled machines and asked Reuther: “How are you going to collect union dues from these guys?”

Reuther replied: “How are you going to get them to buy Fords?”..."

 

[meigsbucks]

I was in high school for the bicentennial. You're right, it was a big, big deal. The 250th, not so much.

I was in college in ‘76. 13 star flags were everywhere. Fire hydrants painted red, white and blue. In fact if you could paint it R, W & B, it probably was. Cars had flags on them. People wore flag themed attire. There was a parade of tall ships in NY harbor. The enthusiasm was palpable.
I don’t know if it is apathy, the division in the country, lack of patriotism or all the above.
I was watching FOX a couple of days ago and they were interviewing the foreign visitors for the World Cup and they were saying how their media paints the US as this terrible country, but they love it here. Maybe keep them and send the lefties to their countries.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

How many of those 10% of Americans have useless collage degrees and crippling debt that would of been better served with a trade school education or better yet an apprenticeship instead of having educators shove college propaganda down their throats for all of their teen years?

 

[RLD]

How many of those 10% of Americans have useless collage degrees and crippling debt that would of been better served with a trade school education or better yet an apprenticeship instead of having educators shove college propaganda down their throats for all of their teen years?

Not many.

The vast majority of restaurant workers (servers, bartenders and others) have HS or less.

And it only creeps into the 20% or so at the management level.

College (depending on the degree you choose) still remains a good bet for a higher lifetime income than not.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

On the farm labour issue , anyone ever wonder why low and medium risk inmates couldn’t be used to fulfill those tasks instead of foreigners ? I bet the inmates would be far less likely to cause issues at night after they’ve worked 10-12 hours a day in the sun.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Not many.

The vast majority of restaurant workers (servers, bartenders and others) have HS or less.

And it only creeps into the 20% or so at the management level.

College (depending on the degree you choose) still remains a good bet for a higher lifetime income than not.

For those capable and responsible enough to one pick a decent career field and two see it through sure.

One of the biggest mistakes I can see Nova Scotia made I can’t speak for the rest of the country is requiring a hs diploma for trade schools, previously you could enroll in trade schools as long as you’d reached the age of 16 and had an 8th grade education. A lot of those high school dropouts would be better served in the trades than busting tables or flipping burgers.

 

[Big_Easy]

I agree that they are two different issues.. but I think there is a whole lot of overlap..

30 years ago people took a job at McDonalds as a burger flipper knowing full well that it wasnt going to buy them a 2000 sq foot house or put them in a late model vehicle.. they took the job knowing and understanding that it was either a "side" gig.. or that they'd need to do something in addition to the burger flipping to make ends meet.. its unskilled labor.. they'd need to graduate to something bigger and better (work their way up and become the GM? or hold onto the McD's job until they graduated from school and could demand a skilled or semi skilled labor job.. or hold onto the McD's job until they found something better, etc..)..

Today, the government has convinced the worker that even when working in unskilled labor positions that they are "worth" far more than they actually are.. and so they demand more than they are actually worth.. which results in companies offshoring, automating, and/or hiring immigrant labor that will do the job for what the job is actually worth..

I see a real problem with people confusing their value vs the value of a position they fill... I cant tell you how many times I've looked to hire someone with say 5 years of experience and a bachelors degree for XXXX wages.. only to have someone with a masters degree and 10 years of experience apply and then demand more money 6 months after they are hired..

well... you might be worth more.. but the position you fill isnt..

just because some high school grad thats 25 years old THINKS they are worth more (because CA tells them that at a minimum they are worth $20 an hour to flip burgers) doesnt mean they actually are.. and it certainly doesnt mean that unskilled labor should pay what they THINK they are worth vs what the task is actually worth..

Yes but thats also because the ratio of good paying skilled jobs to unskilled/semi-skilled jobs is much different now than when it used to be, primarily due to automation and outsourcing. Restaurant workers are 10% of the entire employment base...someone will need to fill those jobs. The jobs that "they need to graduate to something bigger and better"...may not even exist now. And with AI, there may be even fewer in the future.

 

[Altitude sickness]

For those capable and responsible enough to one pick a decent career field and two see it through sure.

One of the biggest mistakes I can see Nova Scotia made I can’t speak for the rest of the country is requiring a hs diploma for trade schools, previously you could enroll in trade schools as long as you’d reached the age of 16 and had an 8th grade education. A lot of those high school dropouts would be better served in the trades than busting tables or flipping burgers.

Bingo !!!

We in the U.S. allow the teachers unions which in turn dictate to politicians, how many years our kids will be trapped inside of our failing “public school” indoctrination system.

The crap they learn should be ginned down to 6 years max.

155 countries teach everything in 6-9 years. Not 12.

We should turn kids loose after 6 years to trade schools, Farms etc. If an educator can’t teach them everything they need to know in 6 years. Something is wrong.

 

[Goopy]

Is this year evidence of the fall of our nation?

I was an infant during the bicentennial so I don't remember it, but I remember every family photo in every house showing enormous gatherings. Flags everywhere. I remember the obsession with Colonial and Federal motifs, furniture, decor, and revival architecture. I remember as a young child all those "Spirit of '76" objects festooned in homes and government buildings well into the mid-1980s.

I then reflect as a kid of the 1980s where all the small towns had their sesquicentennial celebrations. The dragged out all the old props and decorations they threw into municipal storage a decade earlier and they reused them for major State & Local milestones once more. Little drummer boys. Federal eagles and globes. Colonial flags.

Well, we're 16 days from the nation's 250th birthday and I see literally nothing. Maybe less than a dozen of the 250th celebration flags in retail stores. I saw a few items at retail stores where the paper adverts showed the logo for the 250th but even the merchandise decided to tread lightly with simply red, white, and blue colors and no logos or tag lines. (e.g. Yeti mugs)

There is no build up. No hype. No bipartisan pride. No revival of movies celebrating the founders or their era. No movement towards the architecture and styles that abounded 1976 revival of 1776. In general, it seems as understated and typical as any other summer in any other year.

Is this an indication that patriotism or passion for the American experiment is dying?

I was 6 in 1976 and I remember that whole summer being one big BBQ. What is happening today is shameful…

 

[mdwest]

Is this year evidence of the fall of our nation?

I was an infant during the bicentennial so I don't remember it, but I remember every family photo in every house showing enormous gatherings. Flags everywhere. I remember the obsession with Colonial and Federal motifs, furniture, decor, and revival architecture. I remember as a young child all those "Spirit of '76" objects festooned in homes and government buildings well into the mid-1980s.

I then reflect as a kid of the 1980s where all the small towns had their sesquicentennial celebrations. The dragged out all the old props and decorations they threw into municipal storage a decade earlier and they reused them for major State & Local milestones once more. Little drummer boys. Federal eagles and globes. Colonial flags.

Well, we're 16 days from the nation's 250th birthday and I see literally nothing. Maybe less than a dozen of the 250th celebration flags in retail stores. I saw a few items at retail stores where the paper adverts showed the logo for the 250th but even the merchandise decided to tread lightly with simply red, white, and blue colors and no logos or tag lines. (e.g. Yeti mugs)

There is no build up. No hype. No bipartisan pride. No revival of movies celebrating the founders or their era. No movement towards the architecture and styles that abounded 1976 revival of 1776. In general, it seems as understated and typical as any other summer in any other year.

Is this an indication that patriotism or passion for the American experiment is dying?

I was a young kid during the bicentinniel.. but I remember it vividy.. mostly because of what a huge affair it was..

we lived in a cove at the time.. the entire community essentially had a giant block party in our cove.. probably 150 people from the neighborhood started showing up with tables and chairs and BBQ grills as the sun came up and the kids played, adults drank beer and cooked, etc all day long.. at nightfall everyone shot off fireworks for I'd guess about 2 hours straight.. I dont have a clue what time the party ended.. but it was late.. I'd guess the entire affair was 16+ hours long..

there were american flags planted in every lawn.. most houses had red/white/blue decorations all over them... it was a huge affair that got planned for months prior to July 4th...

The most Im seeing now is a handful of American flags flying.. perhaps it will pick up a little bit in the coming weeks.. but June 2026 looks pretty much like June 2025, June 2024, etc... Im not seeing or hearing much of a ferver.. no one seems to care much..

sorta sad honestly..

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Bingo !!!

We in the U.S. allow the teachers unions which in turn dictate to politicians, how many years our kids will be trapped inside of our failing “public school” indoctrination system.

The crap they learn should be ginned down to 6 years max.

155 countries teach everything in 6-9 years. Not 12.

We should turn kids loose after 6 years to trade schools, Farms etc. If an educator can’t teach them everything they need to know in 6 years. Something is wrong.

Half of the guys I know who quit school at 16 are multimillionaires the other half are drug addicts. The half that are drug addicts probably wouldn’t have been any more productive citizens if they’d stayed in high school and actually likely would have lured more kids into drugs.

The ones that are multimillionaires all went to sea so to be fair they’d of ended up there regardless but there’s only so many years your body can physically stand commercial fishing so they’d of made less over their careers.

 

[RLD]

For those capable and responsible enough to one pick a decent career field and two see it through sure.

One of the biggest mistakes I can see Nova Scotia made I can’t speak for the rest of the country is requiring a hs diploma for trade schools, previously you could enroll in trade schools as long as you’d reached the age of 16 and had an 8th grade education. A lot of those high school dropouts would be better served in the trades than busting tables or flipping burgers.

I think Canada could do waaaaaay better at training people in trades. One of the reasons I understand that many trade schools require HS or better to get in, is that the demand to get in is very high and they need to screen applicants somehow.

Also, there are significant written exams at the end of the apprenticeship process etc (I had a buddy just get his electrician's papers) and without HS math and English skills I think the odds of passing those written exams is really low.

My father went to a technical HS (Danforth tech) and studied printing which served him well throughout his life. But these days to operate a printing press you need to be able to run some pretty sophisticated equipment.

 

[AJ Peacock]

I was 9; I remember it being a huge deal, even if I didn't fully understand why.

I was 12, I remember painting our mailbox Red White and Blue. Me, my mom and my 8 year old brother. It was a big deal.

AJ

 

[Aaron N]

Bingo !!!

We in the U.S. allow the teachers unions which in turn dictate to politicians, how many years our kids will be trapped inside of our failing “public school” indoctrination system.

The crap they learn should be ginned down to 6 years max.

155 countries teach everything in 6-9 years. Not 12.

We should turn kids loose after 6 years to trade schools, Farms etc. If an educator can’t teach them everything they need to know in 6 years. Something is wrong.

So you want a 12 year old being kicked into the workforce? Because that how old you are after six years of school. You must be a 1880’s coal baron

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I think Canada could do waaaaaay better at training people in trades. One of the reasons I understand that many trade schools require HS or better to get in, is that the demand to get in is very high and they need to screen applicants somehow.

Also, there are significant written exams at the end of the apprenticeship process etc (I had a buddy just get his electrician's papers) and without HS math and English skills I think the odds of passing those written exams is really low.

My father went to a technical HS (Danforth tech) and studied printing which served him well throughout his life. But these days to operate a printing press you need to be able to run some pretty sophisticated equipment.

If you added an entire year of math and English training to the program most would still be licensed before a current 2 year trade school graduate is entering the work force.

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

So you want a 12 year old being kicked into the workforce? Because that how old you are after six years of school. You must be a 1880’s coal baron

I don’t think anyone is arguing for a 12 year old work force , that said if your deemed eligible to quit school at 16 then why not have the opportunity to go into the trade schools at that age?

And actually now that I’m thinking about it how many kids that want to quit school could use the reality check a year in the trades would give them and then go back to finish hs diploma?