Politics

[wesheltonj]

@RLD to change the subject, I see where your country is trying to strip religious speech exception from your "hate speech" law. And those French speaking Canadians are wanting to ban public prayer. I guess you will soon be just like the UK, where when you land a Heathrow, you are arrested for terrorism for your Facebook post.

Thankfully, there are enough conservatives in the USA to save us from your liberal folly. And thankfully our founding father did not set up a Parliamentary system, which allows for such crap.

 

[mdwest]

a couple of obvious flaws in his reporting..

he refers to fentanyl.. and speaks to the corridor where the boats are being interdicted are not known fentanyl routes... well, no shit... venezuela doesnt export much fentanyl (almost none)..

almost all dope coming out of venezuela is colombian cocaine.. (although the venezuelans also have home grown cocaine and ship it to the US as well)..

he also cites the law of armed conflict (same thing the MSM and left wing congressional types continue to do)... these operations are not bound to the same rules/laws as a war.. and they dont require congressional approval... they are law enforcement counter narcotics operations where the military is used to interdict outside of the US.. different rules apply.. again, as said over and over again, this is nothing new... its been going on since the 80's...

Google: Snowcap, Plan Colombia, Justified Return, Andean Counterdrug Initiative, Merida Initiative (there are several others.. but those are the big, long term operations where there is plenty of public information available, although much of what happened under those programs is classified).. they are all either DOJ or DOS programs that the US military plays an interdiction role in.. none are DOD operations..

US military attorneys (JAG), US state department attorneys, US Dept of Justice attorneys, etc.. all get DEEPLY involved in this stuff.. these are joint operations where Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, DEA, Border Patrol, ICE, and NUMEROUS other agencies are all involved.. each has a specific role.. each has a specific purpose.. there are literally THOUSANDS of people between the various groups and agencies assigned to these missions, to include private contractors, that have been doing this for literally more than 40 years..

If we quit seeing videos of boats getting blown up next week.. I can assure you its not because its no longer happening... its simply because we've gone back to doing things the way we were doing them for the last 4 decades.. and we're not talking about it anymore.. (all of these operations require TS clearances and above to be involved.. all of it CAN be classified if the government so chooses... over the last couple of months, they clearly have chosen to make it public knowledge)..

 

[Altitude sickness]

Similar to the Maryland Dad and the “ship wrecked” Venezuelan Fisherman.

 

[1dirthawker]

Can you really blame them, though? This administration is so incompetent that their hamfisted responses, even when true, come across as lies.

saul,
i think you come from an honest place so i will offer a thought. i believe that much of what the left believes comes from the media they consume. i have watched some of the CNN, MSNOW, NBC etc myself to stay appraised on what they put out. they 90+% of the time give slanted or sometimes untrue coverage of trump (who is plenty flawed) and so they believe that the people on the right side of the aisle are evil, almost inhumane individuals. therefore there is nothing wrong with demonizing a hitler or facist/racist, etc. and for some of the less mentally stable individuals, they even think it is ok to act on their concerns, shooting, screaming in the personal space, throwing objects (food, drink or bricks), etc.

the bummer is, i think it will take a real terrible thing (like 9-11 remember when we were ALL headed in the same direction for a short time?) to bring us together as a nation.

regarding incompetence, i believe that the biden admin for 4 years did almost everything they could to wreck or hinder this country. inflation (due to stupid energy policies), open borders ("the borders are secure" mayorkas) men should be allowed in women sports, USAID giving money to truly ridiculous programs and, and, and. this admin might be "hamfisted", but they have a lot to try to fix.

it would be good to set across from each other with a beer/or bourbon and discuss these things, and then maybe walk away with a better understanding of the other side. bill mahar attempts to do this, and i don't agree with much of what he says he believes, but he does give a platform and listens to the other side. AND, i think he is coming around.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Before Grenada and the Panama invasion. My era saw no wars. The primary operating theatre was South America. Primarily, shenanigans to fund other less popular operations all over the globe.
Even before “ Air America” and Iran Contra.

So yeah, killing bad people in South America has been going on for many decades.

 

[Wheels]

I guess the guy doesn't fit the media's wanted narrative

View attachment 730794

It’s interesting how the fbi/Wray can geolocate all the grannies that were on the capital grounds on Jan 6 to prosecute but can’t geolocate possibly the only individual who went to both the RNC and DNC on the same day. Makes a person wonder if it didn’t fit the Jan 6 narrative Wray/Garland wanted to promote

 

[Altitude sickness]

How about a little positivity.

Besides blowing up innocent shipwrecked people on Gilligan’s Island.
The US Navy placed the ashes of one of the final USS Arizona sailors

 

[Saul]

saul,
i think you come from an honest place so i will offer a thought. i believe that much of what the left believes comes from the media they consume. i have watched some of the CNN, MSNOW, NBC etc myself to stay appraised on what they put out. they 90+% of the time give slanted or sometimes untrue coverage of trump (who is plenty flawed) and so they believe that the people on the right side of the aisle are evil, almost inhumane individuals. therefore there is nothing wrong with demonizing a hitler or facist/racist, etc. and for some of the less mentally stable individuals, they even think it is ok to act on their concerns, shooting, screaming in the personal space, throwing objects (food, drink or bricks), etc.

the bummer is, i think it will take a real terrible thing (like 9-11 remember when we were ALL headed in the same direction for a short time?) to bring us together as a nation.

regarding incompetence, i believe that the biden admin for 4 years did almost everything they could to wreck or hinder this country. inflation (due to stupid energy policies), open borders ("the borders are secure" mayorkas) men should be allowed in women sports, USAID giving money to truly ridiculous programs and, and, and. this admin might be "hamfisted", but they have a lot to try to fix.

it would be good to set across from each other with a beer/or bourbon and discuss these things, and then maybe walk away with a better understanding of the other side. bill mahar attempts to do this, and i don't agree with much of what he says he believes, but he does give a platform and listens to the other side. AND, i think he is coming around.

I completely agree with you on the role that our respective media ecosystems play in this, which has only been worsened by social media algorithms. I applaud anyone who steps out of their bubble every now and again.

I do not believe it has to be particularly partisan take to say that the current admin is incompetent. Even if I supported every one of their policy aims, and I am actually sympathetic to quite a few of them, this admin seems to lack the skill, experience, and discipline to achieve their own aims. If anything, that should infuriate their political allies the most.

When all of this is taken together, it should come as no surprise that many are unwilling to extend the benefit do the doubt to this admin.

I also quite like Maher and his willingness to not reflexively toe the line for the left. However, I am going to have to turn down your offer of beer/bourbon, though I would certainly accept a decent scotch.

 

[RLD]

@RLD to change the subject, I see where your country is trying to strip religious speech exception from your "hate speech" law. And those French speaking Canadians are wanting to ban public prayer. I guess you will soon be just like the UK, where when you land a Heathrow, you are arrested for terrorism for your Facebook post.

Thankfully, there are enough conservatives in the USA to save us from your liberal folly. And thankfully our founding father did not set up a Parliamentary system, which allows for such crap.

It’s terrible what the Quebec government in particular is doing to religious rights . We are on the verge of a constitutional crisis over the issue. I find it reprehensible.

There is no doubt that both gun rights and religious rights are far better protected in the United States then in Canada.

We have some serious problems up here.

 

[RLD]

Just curious. Did you have the same convictions when Obama had over 500 drone strikes against terrorists in at least four countries. A few of which I remember included multiple strikes against an already destroyed vehicle/building with wounded laying around.

Since you are an attorney, what was your feeling about the extrajudicial murder of an American citizen by Obama in the drone strike against Awlaki and did you condem Obama for the killing.

If you did condemn Obama for the above at the time then fine. I respect your position even though it may not align with mine. If you didn’t/don’t condemn Obama for similar acts then it seems you have an agenda against the current administration.

PS: similar situations can also be said about Bush and Clinton.

I remember being concerned about it at the time, but don’t recall coming into many details about it. I am sure I talked about it with friends and colleagues though.

But like this situation I don’t suggest the top people should bear the blame. Trump has been clear that he would not have wanted a second strike. I believe that.

Hegseth has said he only watched the first strike and then left for meetings. Considering there was over 40 minutes between the first strike and the second that strikes me as quite credible.

As far as I can tell the failings here took place lower down the chain of command.

 

[mdwest]

I remember being concerned about it at the time, but don’t recall coming into many details about it. I am sure I talked about it with friends and colleagues though.

But like this situation I don’t suggest the top people should bear the blame. Trump has been clear that he would not have wanted a second strike. I believe that.

Hegseth has said he only watched the first strike and then left for meetings. Considering there was over 40 minutes between the first strike and the second that strikes me as quite credible.

As far as I can tell the failings here took place lower down the chain of command.

What youre failing to understand is that the US has decentralized chain of command... We arent the russians... lower level leaders are given significant authority and control..

It doesnt matter if Hegseth was present.. and it doesnt matter if Trump would have wanted a second strike.. rules of engagement are in place.. a CONOP was approved.. PID was made.. the people that gave the orders had everything they needed to place the order and for that order to be legal... there were absolutely ZERO failings.. the admiral and all of his subordinate commanders did exactly what their orders allowed them to do..

you continue to try to apply the laws of warfare.. they simply do not apply... no matter how bad CNN, MSNBC, and Rand Paul want them to...

This is a law enforcement operation that is supported by the US military.. it is (for the 100th time) not unlike every other law enforcement operation in the region that has been supported by the US military for the last 40+ years.... there are quite literally thousands of boats at the bottom of the seas, thousands of narcos under the dirt and at the bottom of the seas, countless labs and manufacturing facilities blown apart (along with the narcos that were inside them at the time they were hit), even more facilities burned to the ground, etc..etc.. than you can count.. the second strike on the boat that happened recently is NOT the first time thats happened.. its not even the 50th... it happens ALL THE TIME.. and the people making those orders are doing it 100% with the consent of the US Government..

your speculation that every JAG officer would agree with you is without a doubt 100% wrong.. as literally teams of JAG officers (to include the fleet JAG, the SOCOM JAG, the JTF JAG, and several others that are likely O5's and O6's and above with anywhere from 20-30 years of JAG experience) that have reviewed the policies, procedures, TTP's, the individual CONOP, and everything else involved extensively before this series of strikes ever started.. and you can guarantee theyve been re-reviewing ever since due to the media attention and democrat congressmen calling into question the events after the fact...

whether anyone likes it or not, the US military doesnt play nice.. this is especially true of SOF personnel (the admiral in question is a career SEAL)... if that dog is let off its leash, it is going to bite.. and bite very hard... the challenge the US military has had in warfighting in pretty much every conflict post WWII has been politicians and career civil servants not letting them off their leash..

when the leash is loosened, you can guess with almost absolute certainty that the loosening was scrutinized at the highest levels by the most qualified people at length prior to letting the slack out..

 

[Brent in Az]

It’s interesting how the fbi/Wray can geolocate all the grannies that were on the capital grounds on Jan 6 to prosecute but can’t geolocate possibly the only individual who went to both the RNC and DNC on the same day. Makes a person wonder if it didn’t fit the Jan 6 narrative Wray/Garland wanted to promote

Probably why all that video evidence disappeared during the Democrat led J6 committee?

 

[Wheels]

Looks like SCOTUS has just accepted a birthright citizenship case docketed for February. It will be interesting to see how they interpret the 14th amendment.

The fact they took the case may be telling in how the 14th is interpreted.

 

[mdwest]

Looks like SCOTUS has just accepted a birthright citizenship case docketed for February. It will be interesting to see how they interpret the 14th amendment.

The fact they took the case may be telling in how the 14th is interpreted.

look for that to be a MAJOR talking point through the mid terms if the ruling comes back the way Trump wants it to... the D's will absolutely attempt to make that their rallying cry..

 

[RLD]

What youre failing to understand is that the US has decentralized chain of command... We arent the russians... lower level leaders are given significant authority and control..

It doesnt matter if Hegseth was present.. and it doesnt matter if Trump would have wanted a second strike.. rules of engagement are in place.. a CONOP was approved.. PID was made.. the people that gave the orders had everything they needed to place the order and for that order to be legal... there were absolutely ZERO failings.. the admiral and all of his subordinate commanders did exactly what their orders allowed them to do..

you continue to try to apply the laws of warfare.. they simply do not apply... no matter how bad CNN, MSNBC, and Rand Paul want them to...

This is a law enforcement operation that is supported by the US military.. it is (for the 100th time) not unlike every other law enforcement operation in the region that has been supported by the US military for the last 40+ years.... there are quite literally thousands of boats at the bottom of the seas, thousands of narcos under the dirt and at the bottom of the seas, countless labs and manufacturing facilities blown apart (along with the narcos that were inside them at the time they were hit), even more facilities burned to the ground, etc..etc.. than you can count.. the second strike on the boat that happened recently is NOT the first time thats happened.. its not even the 50th... it happens ALL THE TIME.. and the people making those orders are doing it 100% with the consent of the US Government..

your speculation that every JAG officer would agree with you is without a doubt 100% wrong.. as literally teams of JAG officers (to include the fleet JAG, the SOCOM JAG, the JTF JAG, and several others that are likely O5's and O6's and above with anywhere from 20-30 years of JAG experience) that have reviewed the policies, procedures, TTP's, the individual CONOP, and everything else involved extensively before this series of strikes ever started.. and you can guarantee theyve been re-reviewing ever since due to the media attention and democrat congressmen calling into question the events after the fact...

whether anyone likes it or not, the US military doesnt play nice.. this is especially true of SOF personnel (the admiral in question is a career SEAL)... if that dog is let off its leash, it is going to bite.. and bite very hard... the challenge the US military has had in warfighting in pretty much every conflict post WWII has been politicians and career civil servants not letting them off their leash..

when the leash is loosened, you can guess with almost absolute certainty that the loosening was scrutinized at the highest levels by the most qualified people at length prior to letting the slack out..

I think your interpretation of what is going on differs from how the current U.S. administration sees it.

The U.S. administration has declared that these are strikes are military self defense operations under U.S. Title 10. Not a law enforcement operation carried out with the support of the military.

They have taken the position that the attacks are military self defense actions as against non-state groups analagous to Al Quada or the Taliban. We have a boatload of jurisprudence on exactly what that means.

The administration has advised Congress that they are in an "armed conflict" with the narcoterrorists and that they are engaged in acts of national self defense against a non-state group.

That is not a law enforcement operation. It is a military operation governed by the International Law of Armed Combat.

So the administration doesn't speak or act like this is LE, not matter how much you would like it to be.

And if you ask me, they are smarter to play it this way. If these acts were done in a LE operation they would have worse legal consequences than they might now.

Legally, the presence of Trump or Hegs is irrelevant. Politically it is a big deal. In many people's mind they wear it. In my mind they don't.

And just because the government approves of something does not make it legal, ethical or moral.

 

[RLD]

And just to add to that analysis:

"White House spokesperson Anna Kelly said in a statement, "The President acted in line with the laws of armed conflict to protect our country from those trying to bring poison to our shores."

"Armed conflict" has a very specific meaning.

 

[RLD]

look for that to be a MAJOR talking point through the mid terms if the ruling comes back the way Trump wants it to... the D's will absolutely attempt to make that their rallying cry..

What kind of odds are you giving?

I think 75/25 against the Trump approach.

 

[mdwest]

Whether or not the government approves of something absolutely makes it legal for the citizens of that government.. if the international courts want to enter into the fray, let them.. that will be a jovial endeavor on its best day..

Once again, Reagan declared the "war on drugs".. this has been going on for 40 years.. it is nothing new at all... if you want to prosecute the admiral, hegseth, or trump, go on and start issuing warrants and subpoenas tied to thousands of people, tens of thousands of individual missions, dozens of programs that span decades of time..

How the administration "sees" things is inconsequential.. Trump in particular is well known for misspeaking or saying things that arent factual or correct..

what matters is what is real.. title 10 allows the US military to monitor and detect.. under title 10 any interdiction, arrests, etc conducted by the US military require the involvement of non DOD personnel (typically the coast guard.. but also often the DEA and other agencies.. occasionally agencies within the intelligence community under title 50).. the non DOD personnel dont have to pull the trigger.. but they do have to be involved and..

if you want to make the title 10 argument, then NONE of the strikes would be legal.. the follow on strike on the guys on the water would be irrelevant.. the initial attack wouldnt be legal to begin with...

how much do you want to bet that there are multiple law enforcement agencies with representation embedded in the task force as well as DIA, CIA, NSA, and other intel agencies that is interdicting these boats? Title 10 is not the only title they have available to them to work under..

the "war on drugs" has been a law enforcement operation since October of 1982 when Reagan declared it.. it wasnt a military "war" in 82 and wasnt bound by the international law of armed conflict then.. and its not now..

you dont really believe it was a Colombian commando that killed Pablo do you? (FWIW, I've met the guy that pulled the trigger.. he wasnt born in latin america).. I can assure you that was an offensive operation, led by a group of US military personnel (although Colombians were present) that was NOT conducted under Title 10..

There are far more ways to skin a cat using US military personnel than just title 10... much of what went on in Syria for years was NOT title 10.. but that sure looked a whole lot like a DoD operation too..

and again.. if the Hague/ICC/ICJ thinks differently... let them come... that should be worth at least 2 bags of popcorn..

 

[mdwest]

What kind of odds are you giving?

I think 75/25 against the Trump approach.

im probably at 50/50 - total toss up on that one... the court is now "conservative".... but either Roberts or Coney Barret (or both) could go the other direction on this one..

I'd pick something else to bet on... I dont think anyones money is safe on this ruling..

 

[Wheels]

you dont really believe it was a Colombian commando that killed Pablo do you? (FWIW, I've met the guy that pulled the trigger.. he wasnt born in latin america).. I can assure you that was an offensive operation, led by a group of US military personnel (although Colombians were present) that was NOT conducted under Title 10..

Surprised someone hasn’t gone back through photos and said since he was wearing a red shirt he is obviously MAGA so he needs charged with war crimes