New or "vintage"?

[Rare Breed]

"You need to find an evaluator to whom the seller can send the gun for inspection."

So am I understanding correctly that the way to approach an internet gun sale for one of these rifles is to have the seller send it to my "evaluator" and then the sale would be made (or not) based on the results? Or am I misunderstanding the way to do this?

Just look online to JJ Perodeau guns and his website will pop up. So far, just me, I have not found anyone I have bought a DR from that did not know who JJ was. You can request that he be able to inspect the gun before buying it. Some people may balk at that and you should have to pay for that cost not the seller, just my POV but it would be worth it. As I said, I just budget for repairs going in since no disrespect to anyone but JJ gets all my vintage DRs for inspection no matter how great the seller says the rifle is.

 

[SStomcat]

Merkel will allow Monolithic ammunition. Kreighoff won’t.

Yes, Krieghoff will. I have the letter from Krieghoff that I posted in this forum, which states so--Golam saheb!

 

[SStomcat]

I have vintage british doubles but my Krieghoff .470 see most use..for the reasons you mention.. It cronos 2170fps with Hornady DGX bonded..crumples cape buffalo.. The cocking lever IS an added safety.

If lost/stolen, take out the insurance and buy a new one..

Love it, Sir!

 

[rookhawk]

"You need to find an evaluator to whom the seller can send the gun for inspection."

So am I understanding correctly that the way to approach an internet gun sale for one of these rifles is to have the seller send it to my "evaluator" and then the sale would be made (or not) based on the results? Or am I misunderstanding the way to do this?

It’s one way for sure. I will tell you that if I was selling a gun/rifle and someone asked me for this, then spouted off some never-heard-of-him inspector, I would not be interested in dealing with the hassle, the risk of incompetence handling my rifle, or the potential of a post-negotiation negotiation scam. If someone wanted me to send something to JJ or Ken Owen, I’d have no issue.

The alternative would be to buy from someone that either A.) has an impeccable reputation, or B.) has had the rifle serviced or inspected recently by a very highly regarded double rifle mechanic.

The times where I have negotiated for an inspect and return right is where the seller admits they don’t know the facts. (e.g. Someone handling an estate)

 

[zephyr]

Rookhawk "What I can say is horrible things happen when we deviate from the plot. You are welcome to disagree as to causality, whether bullet diameter, powder type, metallurgy, or wad".
Are you referring OSR

 

[318AE]

I have decided that my interest is in a "vintage" British double. However, there is no way my finances will allow me to purchase the "big" names that I am familiar with (Purdy, H&H, Westley Richards, Rigby, etc). I see doubles from other British makers that I am not familiar with which are far less expensive, Greener, Evans, and Lang are some that I've seen. Are the "lesser known" (and less expensive) British doubles worth considering? Again, the planned use includes extensive shooting/hunting; I would not be treating it as a "collector" or display-only piece.

Our forum previously had the benefit of contributions from a very knowledgeable gentleman, Cal Pappas (RIP). Cal traded through quite a few DRs in his day and I appreciated his contributions greatly. Amongst his favorites were his Harrison and Hussey 450/400.

I had never heard of Harrison and Hussey before or since. He owned DRs from all the names we recognized, but this may have been his favorite.

One thing I like about the British guns of the golden era is that they were built to a level of quality independent of their embellishment. The highly engraved rifles are no better made or better regulated than the plain ones.

 

[rookhawk]

Our forum previously had the benefit of contributions from a very knowledgeable gentleman, Cal Pappas (RIP). Cal traded through quite a few DRs in his day and I appreciated his contributions greatly. Amongst his favorites were his Harrison and Hussey 450/400.

I had never heard of Harrison and Hussey before or since. He owned DRs from all the names we recognized, but this may have been his favorite.

One thing I like about the British guns of the golden era is that they were built to a level of quality independent of their embellishment. The highly engraved rifles are no better made or better regulated than the plain ones.

Harrison & Hussey was a very brief firm so its probably why you haven’t heard much of them.

Joseph Lang was acquired by Webley. They needed a guy that was a smooth operator and an expert gun fitter to run the shop. (Mr. Hussey). After a couple years he demanded his name be added, Lang & Hussey. He then grabbed a bunch of guns from stock, still in the white, and sold them to the trade while pocketing the profits. He got caught (and canned) by Webley. He then went on to make the brand HJ Hussey. Then Harrison & Hussey. I think it then went on to be acquired by Ogden, Smith & Hussey which is now Ogden’s Sporting Goods Stores.

His guns were excellent, his character was questionable.

 

[318AE]

Harrison & Hussey was a very brief firm so its probably why you haven’t heard much of them.

Joseph Lang was acquired by Webley. They needed a guy that was a smooth operator and an expert gun fitter to run the shop. (Mr. Hussey). After a couple years he demanded his name be added, Lang & Hussey. He then grabbed a bunch of guns from stock, still in the white, and sold them to the trade while pocketing the profits. He got caught (and canned) by Webley. He then went on to make the brand HJ Hussey. Then Harrison & Hussey. I think it then went on to be acquired by Ogden, Smith & Hussey which is now Ogden’s Sporting Goods Stores.

His guns were excellent, his character was questionable.

My point was a little bit different…. But I’m glad you know so much about Mr Hussey.

 

[rookhawk]

My point was a little bit different…. But I’m glad you know so much about Mr Hussey.

Cal knew his stuff and is missed. You stated you had never heard of that maker before or since. It was one of many ephemeral iterations of a good maker.

 

[DaddyFlip]

Look at Champlin Firearms website. Click on the “Gun vault” tab and see what doubles they have. Then give George Caswell a call and plan a trip to Enid, OK.

@MexicoMike Above is the short version of my opinion. If you really want to buy online, I would consider Champlin the only online service available, watch their site for what you want, buy from them, then go there to check it out firsthand and be fitted for the gun of your choice. At least talk to them about your fitment and other needs if you absolutely cannot go there. Honorable mention: talk to JJ ahead of time your intentions and if he can help you after you've purchased elsewhere; I'm not sure any/all doubles can be rescued or if he will work on just anything (?)

On a whim, I decided I wanted a double and started researching extensively (as is my custom). I already had Mark Sullivan's books from a long time ago (for inspiration) and recently bought Graeme Wright's 4th edition (for knowledge, because I handload). After spending time on this forum I realized, in short: Don't buy any double on the internet sight unseen, especially if you are a novice (like me). I buy online all the time all manner of firearm without issue and I had my sights on a couple, ready to pull the trigger, but the double is a special beast requiring a different strategy, especially if you are going used/vintage.

I really want vintage, maybe even BPE (I load that also), and I'm afraid to go that route alone, so I'm planning to get help from an expert. To tide me over whilst I study and shop, I bought myself a second-hand A-bolt project gun in 375H&H and a NIB Safari Express in 416Rem (both online) for a tenth of what a serviceable double would cost. Your stated budget sounds like me: you can PAY for a double but maybe can't afford it, probably don't NEED it, and you're willing to stretch to make it happen anyway. This, I believe is how one can buy the wrong thing and be disappointed. Or maybe one gets lucky?

The beauty of a bolt/lever/single is any of these can be loaded down to pipsqueak level or max loaded for magnum performance and sighted in on the fly for any load. A double is different; it's intended for (essentially) one load at one distance for one thing, so it has to be right out of the gate. This may be achieved easier in a new double, but the load situation remains. If you go new, why not buy a Chapuis from Champlin where they are willing to act like a manufacturer rep? Well within your budget and they will make sure it's right for you.

I'll be following to see how it turns out for you. Good luck!

 

[SStomcat]

@MexicoMike Above is the short version of my opinion. If you really want to buy online, I would consider Champlin the only online service available, watch their site for what you want, buy from them, then go there to check it out firsthand and be fitted for the gun of your choice. At least talk to them about your fitment and other needs if you absolutely cannot go there. Honorable mention: talk to JJ ahead of time your intentions and if he can help you after you've purchased elsewhere; I'm not sure any/all doubles can be rescued or if he will work on just anything (?)

On a whim, I decided I wanted a double and started researching extensively (as is my custom). I already had Mark Sullivan's books from a long time ago (for inspiration) and recently bought Graeme Wright's 4th edition (for knowledge, because I handload). After spending time on this forum I realized, in short: Don't buy any double on the internet sight unseen, especially if you are a novice (like me). I buy online all the time all manner of firearm without issue and I had my sights on a couple, ready to pull the trigger, but the double is a special beast requiring a different strategy, especially if you are going used/vintage.

I really want vintage, maybe even BPE (I load that also), and I'm afraid to go that route alone, so I'm planning to get help from an expert. To tide me over whilst I study and shop, I bought myself a second-hand A-bolt project gun in 375H&H and a NIB Safari Express in 416Rem (both online) for a tenth of what a serviceable double would cost. Your stated budget sounds like me: you can PAY for a double but maybe can't afford it, probably don't NEED it, and you're willing to stretch to make it happen anyway. This, I believe is how one can buy the wrong thing and be disappointed. Or maybe one gets lucky?

The beauty of a bolt/lever/single is any of these can be loaded down to pipsqueak level or max loaded for magnum performance and sighted in on the fly for any load. A double is different; it's intended for (essentially) one load at one distance for one thing, so it has to be right out of the gate. This may be achieved easier in a new double, but the load situation remains. If you go new, why not buy a Chapuis from Champlin where they are willing to act like a manufacturer rep? Well within your budget and they will make sure it's right for you.

I'll be following to see how it turns out for you. Good luck!

Very well said

 

[MexicoMike]

Thanks, guys, appreciate the input. From several private exchanges with a well-known member here it seems like with my budget/expectations, I am in the lightweight class, stepping into a heavyweight fight! His advice was similar - buy a good bolt gun!

Unfortunately, I don't want another bolt gun - even a very high quality one. I have/have had bolt guns in calibers from .220 Swift (one of my favs) to .375HH and reloaded for those as well as for lever guns in various calibers up to very hot 45/70 (bear in AK) as well as BP loads from 45 colt to 50/140 Sharps.

My "problem" is as DaddyFlip stated, I WANT a double; I don't NEED a double! And it certainly has become clear to me with the help of folks on this site that buying a double is totally unrelated to buying any other rifle... Not sure at the moment whether to pursue it or consider it an exercise in research that revealed my lightweight budget does not allow me to "fight" in the heavyweight ranks!

 

[Altitude sickness]

Most of us get what you mean. The “I wants” is an itch that must be scratched.

I did exactly what you’re not supposed to do to scratch the DR itch. I figured a modest affordable one would scratch the itch, I bought a cheap Italian brand. but it didn’t scratch the itch. And I lost money on it. Then bought the next model. I just kept buying and selling and I lost money on each one.

It’s actually cheaper to listen to people that have done it the hard way. Determine what you’re going to hunt. Choose the caliber you need then buy a vetted double rifle with proven loads and a real target that shows what speed each barrel likes.

The old adage buy once cry once it’s very true with Double rifles.

I now scratch the itch with nice quality side-by-side shotguns. A gun I can use locally and I still get the same feeling holding it and carrying it.