New or "vintage"?

[Altitude sickness]

Lang, Henry Aitkin, Grant, Etc. many more than the big 5 made Best guns. I’m on the hunt now for a Best example from Henry Aitkin or Grant but if another brand pops up that has everything I need at a fair price. I won’t rule it out.

 

[Pondoro]

MexicoMike..there are a lot of lesser known makers of prewar british double rifles..

Army & Navy, William Evans, C.W.Andrews, Manton, Lyon & Lyon, Charles Lancaster, Webley & Scott, Boswell, Jeffey..the list is long. Most were made in Birmingham

 

[MexicoMike]

Thanks!!

I've found some interesting possibilities in English doubles on the various on-line sites but in calibers where brass and dies don't seem to be currently available. In the 40 calibers, brass and reloading dies for 470NE and 450/400 3" are very easy to find. Others, not so much. I realize that 450/400 is somewhat less powerful than the .470 but it would be workable for me if a nice (affordable) rifle showed up. I'd appreciate any suggestions for others in the "40s" that may have brass/dies available since I'm sure I haven't seen everything though I've done a lot of searching for doubles in the price range with a max of 20K USD.

 

[steve white]

I would not buy any gun without: A. Having it in hand to see how it fit me, or B. Having it bespoke to dimensions I have determined will surely work for me. It just seems that the older they are, the better they fit! I shoot with a very heads up position--like the oldies. There are MANY modern guns that just feel too straight for me--a certain Beretta O/U comes to mind.
This of course does not address function mechanically, but it does address my main functional concern--can I shoot it well when life is on the line.

 

[MexicoMike]

Yes, I'm sure that's the best approach, Steve. And since the on-line sellers all seem to offer a 3 day examination period - though no actual firing allowed - that should be enough to determine if it fits me dimension-wise if not how it will feel to shoot. Since any purchase would have to be sent to a local FFL, I would have to verify if the three day examination period starts when the FFL receives the rifle or when I pick it up from the FFL. I have never dealt with on-line gun sales before so that process is new to me. I'd much rather go to a shop but I haven't seen any websites where any shop, regardless how good, carries a selection of doubles in my price range and traveling all around the US to look at individual possibilities is not workable.

 

[SStomcat]

At the time that I had my VC built (2012) they guaranteed their doubles with monometal bullets. I don't know about now.

And I have a letter from Krighoff that says monometal solids are fine too, intended for use as a hunting rifle, not a match rifle. Lots of myths flying around here...

 

[Ray B]

Question/Clarification: With regard to vintage British double rifles, when classified as a PRE-WAR, Which war is being referenced?

 

[SStomcat]

OP, you’ve just opened a Pandora’s box here — just kidding!

I was in your shoes not too long ago, so I know exactly what you’re feeling. Rest assured, you’ve come to the right place — plenty of knowledgeable folks here with decades of real, hands-on experience to guide you through.
Even though I don’t belong to this particular club, I think you’ll still find value here. Ultimately, the decision is yours to make — what works perfectly for one person may not for another. There are infinite variables, and the only true constant in this whole equation is you.

When I went through the same process, I looked at a few modern rifles in person

• Heym 500 NE in 88B
• Heym 89B in 500 NE
• Krieghoff Big 5 in 470 NE
• Joseph Lang sidelock in 470 NE (refurbished by a respected British gunsmith, sold in the US, checked by Ken Owen, and load-developed), I didn't get to see it in person.

In the end, I went with the Krieghoff Big 5 over the Heym and Lang for several reasons:

• Forgiving & accurate – extremely forgiving and solidly precise to 50 yards (my personal goal). I don’t plan on taking DG shots beyond ~30 yards anyway.
• Fit & finish – every bit as good as the Heym, minus the engraving (which I don’t care about since this rifle will see hard use, not safe time).
• Built to hunt – I didn’t buy it to resell or make a profit; I bought it to use and trust on multiple hunts.
• Cocking mechanism – opinions vary; some love it, some don’t. But with a long list of PHs relying on it, that’s convincing enough for me.
• PH recommendation – my PH recommended it — that sealed the deal.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I was able to inspect it in person to ensure proper fit and finish. It was a new gun and about $6–7K less than the Heym — and nearly $17K less than the Lang — enough to fund at least one African safari!

I’ll admit, I’m also a bit of a risk-taker. I like taking calculated risks — otherwise, life would get pretty dull, don’t you think? That mindset played into my choice: I wanted something proven, reliable, yet different enough to keep things interesting.

That’s my mileage; yours may be entirely different. Just wanted to share my perspective — hope it helps you sort through the options.

 

[SStomcat]

Question/Clarification: With regard to vintage British double rifles, when classified as a PRE-WAR, Which war is being referenced?

WWII I would think

 

[rookhawk]

I have decided that my interest is in a "vintage" British double. However, there is no way my finances will allow me to purchase the "big" names that I am familiar with (Purdy, H&H, Westley Richards, Rigby, etc). I see doubles from other British makers that I am not familiar with which are far less expensive, Greener, Evans, and Lang are some that I've seen. Are the "lesser known" (and less expensive) British doubles worth considering? Again, the planned use includes extensive shooting/hunting; I would not be treating it as a "collector" or display-only piece.

Most of the British makers actually made nothing. They bought actions in the trade and at best, engraved their name on the rib and proofed them in London rather than Birmingham to give an impression of prestige.

You always by the gun or rifle, never the maker.

Example: Holland & Holland didn't even own their own gun works until 1898 and MOST of their double rifles and shotguns of the early 20th century were made by W.C. Scott in Birmingham. (e.g. Climax, Dominion, and similar models)

 

[rookhawk]

MexicoMike..there are a lot of lesser known makers of prewar british double rifles..

Army & Navy, William Evans, C.W.Andrews, Manton, Lyon & Lyon, Charles Lancaster, Webley & Scott, Boswell, Jeffey..the list is long. Most were made in Birmingham

Army Navy CSL never made a weapon. Manton (the 19th and 20th century version) never made a weapon. Lyon & Lyon - Never. Jeffery Never.

Webley & Scott on the other hand, made the majority of the double rifles advertised by every brand.

 

[Rare Breed]

MexicoMike..there are a lot of lesser known makers of prewar british double rifles..

Army & Navy, William Evans, C.W.Andrews, Manton, Lyon & Lyon, Charles Lancaster, Webley & Scott, Boswell, Jeffey..the list is long. Most were made in Birmingham

A good example of @Pondoro ‘s point is my buying an Army Navy 500 NE for $12,000 with @rookhawk help. Most people might not know Army Navy is not a manufacturer but sell at retail. They use a variety of gun makers who basically are selling a private label gun to Army Navy who then sell under their brand. In this case Westley Richards made my gun. They had the gun in their ledgers showing the guns providence.

 

[rookhawk]

A good example of @Pondoro ‘s point is my buying an Army Navy 500 NE for $12,000 with @rookhawk help. Most people might not know Army Navy is not a manufacturer but sell at retail. They use a variety of gun makers who basically are selling a private label gun to Army Navy who then sell under their brand. In this case Westley Richards made my gun. They had the gun in their ledgers showing the guns providence.

Army Navy Cooperative Society Limited was a wholesale buying club similar to a PX for officers.

They would sell anything from a pleb quality gamekeeper's gun to a London best double rifle. A fellow on this forum had a best-best quality 470NE sidelock ejector he paid $27,000-ish for but sadly he blew it up with negligence. That rifle, if the actual maker's name was on the rib and the locks would have been a $50k-$60k double rifle.

People crap on ANCSL, then buy an inferior rifle or shotgun for more money because it "has a good name on the rib".

 

[SStomcat]

A good example of @Pondoro ‘s point is my buying an Army Navy 500 NE for $12,000 with @rookhawk help. Most people might not know Army Navy is not a manufacturer but sell at retail. They use a variety of gun makers who basically are selling a private label gun to Army Navy who then sell under their brand. In this case Westley Richards made my gun. They had the gun in their ledgers showing the guns providence.

The flip side being the rifle worth should it had the W&R logo on it…

 

[MexicoMike]

GREAT INFORMATION, thanks!!!! I had no idea that many of the famous British gunmakers didn't make guns!!

 

[Red Leg]

Yes, I'm sure that's the best approach, Steve. And since the on-line sellers all seem to offer a 3 day examination period - though no actual firing allowed - that should be enough to determine if it fits me dimension-wise if not how it will feel to shoot. Since any purchase would have to be sent to a local FFL, I would have to verify if the three day examination period starts when the FFL receives the rifle or when I pick it up from the FFL. I have never dealt with on-line gun sales before so that process is new to me. I'd much rather go to a shop but I haven't seen any websites where any shop, regardless how good, carries a selection of doubles in my price range and traveling all around the US to look at individual possibilities is not workable.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, there are a host of bad things, several that are very expensive things, that can be present on an outwardly attractive gun. Only someone with extensive experience with doubles can spot them. You need to find an evaluator to whom the seller can send the gun for inspection.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@MexicoMike

There are a couple of decision points that lead you to consider "New versus Vintage" in the double rifle world.

I'll start with the false assumption: People will tell you if you buy a new one, you get to use factory ammo, whereas a vintage double rifle requires a custom load. That is almost totally false. The new double rifle is regulated for a very particular load from a very specific brand. Within months to years, that manufacturer will change bullets, or change their powder due to supply chain shortages, leaving you with a worthless rifle that cannot hit the broadside of a barn. Factory loads are also excessively violent in their recoil due to the powders they select. So from the start, new versus vintage, get it in your head that you need a regulating load developed so the rifle is accurate and functional indefinitely.

Now on to the biggest thing between a a modern versus vintage double rifle. To be specific, I'm talking about a modern Heym because they are extremely durable with excellent metallurgy, not all new guns can shoot monometal solids so don't paint with a broad brush.

Generally:

A Heym modern double rifle (and a few others, but not most) can be regulated to use all-copper and copper-allow monometal solids. Their metallurgy allows you to do horrible things to the rifle with good chances that the barrels stay together and you do not irrepairably damage the weapon.

A vintage British double is superior to a Heym in every conceivable way. Aesthetic. Handmade quality, balance, fit and finish, etc. The one detraction for a vintage british double rifle is they must use traditional cup-and-core, lead core FMJ solids and their corresponding softs. They were designed and regulated for these bullets and these bullets are softer than the barrels which are not as good of metallurgy as a modern Heym. In short, a vintage British Double is like a Ferrari, you can't buy one and then bemoan that it won't run on 87 octane fuel. You'll need to seek out and hoard the bullets that work with a vintage double and manage supply chain concerns as they come in and out of production every few years. Hornady DGS and DGX are available in most calibers and serve this purpose, even better are woodleigh softs and woodleigh traditional FMJ solids that are a bit harder to find in some calibers.

That's the big difference. I've loved the Heyms I've owned, I've truly loved the British rifles I've owned. Both are wholly reliable and sufficient for dangerous game hunting if properly maintained. They Heym needs far less scrutiny to its serviceability because they are 1-30 years old and the vintage British rifle is 75-125 years old.

Some caveat emptor on modern Double Rifles. I know that Rigby will not authorize hand loaded monometal solids. I believe Merkel and Krieghoff as well, but double check on the latter two. Either way, I'm not spending "British Rifle" money on anything modern that isn't a Heym or something very rare with impeccable reputation. (e.g. Hartmann and Weis, Marcel Thys, etc.)

Merkel will allow Monolithic ammunition. Kreighoff won’t.

 

[MexicoMike]

"You need to find an evaluator to whom the seller can send the gun for inspection."

So am I understanding correctly that the way to approach an internet gun sale for one of these rifles is to have the seller send it to my "evaluator" and then the sale would be made (or not) based on the results? Or am I misunderstanding the way to do this?

 

[Pondoro]

OP, you’ve just opened a Pandora’s box here — just kidding!

I was in your shoes not too long ago, so I know exactly what you’re feeling. Rest assured, you’ve come to the right place — plenty of knowledgeable folks here with decades of real, hands-on experience to guide you through.
Even though I don’t belong to this particular club, I think you’ll still find value here. Ultimately, the decision is yours to make — what works perfectly for one person may not for another. There are infinite variables, and the only true constant in this whole equation is you.

When I went through the same process, I looked at a few modern rifles in person

• Heym 500 NE in 88B
• Heym 89B in 500 NE
• Krieghoff Big 5 in 470 NE
• Joseph Lang sidelock in 470 NE (refurbished by a respected British gunsmith, sold in the US, checked by Ken Owen, and load-developed), I didn't get to see it in person.

In the end, I went with the Krieghoff Big 5 over the Heym and Lang for several reasons:

• Forgiving & accurate – extremely forgiving and solidly precise to 50 yards (my personal goal). I don’t plan on taking DG shots beyond ~30 yards anyway.
• Fit & finish – every bit as good as the Heym, minus the engraving (which I don’t care about since this rifle will see hard use, not safe time).
• Built to hunt – I didn’t buy it to resell or make a profit; I bought it to use and trust on multiple hunts.
• Cocking mechanism – opinions vary; some love it, some don’t. But with a long list of PHs relying on it, that’s convincing enough for me.
• PH recommendation – my PH recommended it — that sealed the deal.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I was able to inspect it in person to ensure proper fit and finish. It was a new gun and about $6–7K less than the Heym — and nearly $17K less than the Lang — enough to fund at least one African safari!

I’ll admit, I’m also a bit of a risk-taker. I like taking calculated risks — otherwise, life would get pretty dull, don’t you think? That mindset played into my choice: I wanted something proven, reliable, yet different enough to keep things interesting.

That’s my mileage; yours may be entirely different. Just wanted to share my perspective — hope it helps you sort through the options.

I have vintage british doubles but my Krieghoff .470 see most use..for the reasons you mention.. It cronos 2170fps with Hornady DGX bonded..crumples cape buffalo.. The cocking lever IS an added safety.

If lost/stolen, take out the insurance and buy a new one..

 

[Altitude sickness]

Yes, better to send it to the same gunsmith that would correct the discovered discrepancies. Many will roll the inspection costs into the repair cost.