New or "vintage"?

MexicoMike

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I did a search but couldn't really find an answer - probably due to my poor searching ability... In looking for a double rifle in the sub 20k USD price range, is it better to concentrate on relatively new offerings from say, Chapuis, Merkel, etc or at older rifles. Frankly I like the look of some of the older ones I've seen on guns Intl and other sites but I ASSUME that newer rifles would be a "safer" choice in the sense that there would be no surprises re things to be fixed/adjusted by a gunsmith. Since I would be purchasing via the internet, with no option to actually look at/handle the rifles, this is quite important. I'd rather have a double that's "been around" but it needs to be a good/reliable shooter, not a safe queen. Any thoughts are welcome!! (or point me to relevant previous posts)
 
@Red Leg and @rookhawk are probably the best double resources here…

I’m very new to the double world on the rifle side of the house, but have owned several O/U and SxS shotguns over the years…

My wife’s double rifle is a Chapuis.. but.. the gun was a gift… neither she or I had much involvement in the decision making process… that said, so far I’ve found it to be an excellent rifle… at the price point I’m not sure there is a better option out there for new guns… JJ has her gun right now (had him fit her last week).. he is a big fan of their design and quality and used to sell a lot of their guns himself… he I think most would agree is one of if not THE authority on doubles in the US…

Now that all of that’s out of the way.. I think the answer to your question largely depends on your values and intent…

Are you looking at the gun as an investment? A working piece of art? Or as a tool? Or a combination of all three? I think the answers to those questions will for the most part drive the final decision..
 
Thanks!!

It would be a tool primarily - to travel to Africa/hunt. I do have an inclination for something with a bit of history - known or unknown. But not at the expense of function.
 
Look at Champlin Firearms website. Click on the “Gun vault” tab and see what doubles they have. Then give George Caswell a call and plan a trip to Enid, OK.
 
Having once bought a "pig in a poke" vintage double rifle my only advice in buying a used/vintage double would be to at a minimum insist that it come with a target and loading information. If they tell you it shoots great that's not enough -- show me. Ideally the seller would also provide a few rounds of ammunition and allow you to shoot the rifle during a 3-day approval period.
 
Thanks!!

It would be a tool primarily - to travel to Africa/hunt. I do have an inclination for something with a bit of history - known or unknown. But not at the expense of function.


@MexicoMike

There are a couple of decision points that lead you to consider "New versus Vintage" in the double rifle world.

I'll start with the false assumption: People will tell you if you buy a new one, you get to use factory ammo, whereas a vintage double rifle requires a custom load. That is almost totally false. The new double rifle is regulated for a very particular load from a very specific brand. Within months to years, that manufacturer will change bullets, or change their powder due to supply chain shortages, leaving you with a worthless rifle that cannot hit the broadside of a barn. Factory loads are also excessively violent in their recoil due to the powders they select. So from the start, new versus vintage, get it in your head that you need a regulating load developed so the rifle is accurate and functional indefinitely.

Now on to the biggest thing between a a modern versus vintage double rifle. To be specific, I'm talking about a modern Heym because they are extremely durable with excellent metallurgy, not all new guns can shoot monometal solids so don't paint with a broad brush.

Generally:

A Heym modern double rifle (and a few others, but not most) can be regulated to use all-copper and copper-allow monometal solids. Their metallurgy allows you to do horrible things to the rifle with good chances that the barrels stay together and you do not irrepairably damage the weapon.

A vintage British double is superior to a Heym in every conceivable way. Aesthetic. Handmade quality, balance, fit and finish, etc. The one detraction for a vintage british double rifle is they must use traditional cup-and-core, lead core FMJ solids and their corresponding softs. They were designed and regulated for these bullets and these bullets are softer than the barrels which are not as good of metallurgy as a modern Heym. In short, a vintage British Double is like a Ferrari, you can't buy one and then bemoan that it won't run on 87 octane fuel. You'll need to seek out and hoard the bullets that work with a vintage double and manage supply chain concerns as they come in and out of production every few years. Hornady DGS and DGX are available in most calibers and serve this purpose, even better are woodleigh softs and woodleigh traditional FMJ solids that are a bit harder to find in some calibers.

That's the big difference. I've loved the Heyms I've owned, I've truly loved the British rifles I've owned. Both are wholly reliable and sufficient for dangerous game hunting if properly maintained. They Heym needs far less scrutiny to its serviceability because they are 1-30 years old and the vintage British rifle is 75-125 years old.

Some caveat emptor on modern Double Rifles. I know that Rigby will not authorize hand loaded monometal solids. I believe Merkel and Krieghoff as well, but double check on the latter two. Either way, I'm not spending "British Rifle" money on anything modern that isn't a Heym or something very rare with impeccable reputation. (e.g. Hartmann and Weis, Marcel Thys, etc.)
 
The "best" buys are quality Birmingham rifles from between the wars. The trick is sorting out the quality ones from those loaded with problems - problems that are rarely cheap. Things like barrel solder, springs, face, etc, etc, are invisible in an on line photo. I can't speak for others, but my education in older doubles (guns and rifles) was both very time consuming and very expensive.

So if you are looking for a quality vintage gun, then enlist some quality help. Several experts will inspect a gun for a fee, though they will no be interested in doing that for what is in their minds a cheap clunker.

Assuming you are not planning to spend north of 100K, I think @rookhawk's recommendation is correct that Heym makes the most affordable quality traditional double. In the same general cost ballpark, though a bit more expensive, is the new Rigby Shakiri which is semi-custom double that parallels the target market of their Big Game and Stalker bolt actions. But it will be around 40K in its base model.

Where Rook and I differ is that I think neither is the best option for someone wanting to dip their toe in the doubles game. My suggestion would be a new or lightly used Krieghoff. An alternative would be a lightly used Blaser S2. Both can be found in useful chamberings for around 10K. Both are designed for scope or red-dot sight use which is usually a good idea for folks without lots of open sight experience.

They are in no way traditional, but I see that as an advantage. My S2 in all three of its barrel configurations is supremely accurate. I use it scoped, but the Blaser quick release allows easy access to the excellent open sights for a follow-up, and a 1 X something scope provides an instant red dot. As both a .375 or 30-06, my S2 has taken game from 20 yards to 250 yards.

Finally, I would suggest getting a rifle you will actually use. For instance an accurate 9.3x74R or .375 makes a fabulous PG, bear, red stag/elk, pig, and deer rifle. A .470 or .500 not so much. I know several folks who own great elephant and buffalo rifles that have only killed paper and that only rarely.
 
Chapuis is a good option at 15k, Heym the only option at 20k. Chapuis is safe bet, as Beretta Holdings owns them now,.....which means they will never go out of business, service is performed at the Beretta Gallery in TX.
 
I have a Chapuis 9.3x74R amd a W.J. Jeffery. 450/400. I sold a Chapuis 450/400 and took the Jeffery to Africa. The Chapuis is an excellent rifle but the vintage rifles just have that extra mystique for me. If you go vintage, just make sure the barrels are still strong with good rifling.
 
Look at Champlin Firearms website. Click on the “Gun vault” tab and see what doubles they have. Then give George Caswell a call and plan a trip to Enid, OK.
George had several nice vintage doubles on his table at the Tulsa show last week.. hes got some great inventory...

I'd call JJ too.. I was in his shop over in Sand Springs last Friday.. he had I'd guess 20-25 rifles and shotguns for sale in his vault.. a handful of the rifles were doubles (all exquisite as you can imagine.. and if JJ is holding them you can guarantee they have been serviced and are in stellar operational shape.. )..
 
Chapuis is a good option at 15k, Heym the only option at 20k. Chapuis is safe bet, as Beretta Holdings owns them now,.....which means they will never go out of business, service is performed at the Beretta Gallery in TX.

I think your pricing on Heyms is a bit out of date. The ground floor on a new base model Heym is about $30k. Most of the used Heyms are fairly deluxe (PH models excepted) that push the $30k mark now. If you wanted a spectacular Heym new today with all manner of embellishments, it is not inconceivable you could spend $100k on best-best quality one.

The Rigby Shikari has skyrocketed in price from what was cited during their introductory period a few years ago. $40k then is now I believe about $70k. I want them to be excellent, but I remain cautiously optimistic until I hear the credible hunters on this forum give us a consensus review of the rifles once delivered and used a bit.

A nice vintage Birmingham double with ejectors in a desirable cartridge like 470NE or 500NE is going to be in that $25k to $35k range depending on quality, condition, regulation targets with demonstrable loads, length of pull, and whatever dies/components/accessories are included.

I'm a double rifle fanatic and they are in my opinion, the very best tool for Dangerous Game hunting. Nonetheless, when I see that getting what I consider is a "wholly satisfactory" one used is going to run ~$30k all-in with loads developed, I think the average hunter would be much happier with a VERY nice $8,000-$12,000 Dangerous Game bolt rifle. (e.g. Dakota, Parkwest, etc.)
 
I think your pricing on Heyms is a bit out of date. The ground floor on a new base model Heym is about $30k. Most of the used Heyms are fairly deluxe (PH models excepted) that push the $30k mark now. If you wanted a spectacular Heym new today with all manner of embellishments, it is not inconceivable you could spend $100k on best-best quality one.

The Rigby Shikari has skyrocketed in price from what was cited during their introductory period a few years ago. $40k then is now I believe about $70k. I want them to be excellent, but I remain cautiously optimistic until I hear the credible hunters on this forum give us a consensus review of the rifles once delivered and used a bit.

A nice vintage Birmingham double with ejectors in a desirable cartridge like 470NE or 500NE is going to be in that $25k to $35k range depending on quality, condition, regulation targets with demonstrable loads, length of pull, and whatever dies/components/accessories are included.

I'm a double rifle fanatic and they are in my opinion, the very best tool for Dangerous Game hunting. Nonetheless, when I see that getting what I consider is a "wholly satisfactory" one used is going to run ~$30k all-in with loads developed, I think the average hunter would be much happier with a VERY nice $8,000-$12,000 Dangerous Game bolt rifle. (e.g. Dakota, Parkwest, etc.)
You may be right on the pricing,....I don't follow hyem at all. Having owned a half dozen or so double rifles, vintage and new, handloading and shooting them a lot over the last couple decades I would personally say that 9 of 10 guys is better off with a high-quality bolt gun with an optic provision. unless you are an avid/experienced handloader you got no business in the vintage double rifle game,...and quite frankly the new doubles that are presumably really good represent 1-2% of hunters heading to Africa that are willing to spend that kind of money. In the hands of a competent PH that actually shoots and practices with a double,...I agree, no better tool for dangerous game, but truth be told I've hunted with multiple PH's that I'd rather be the one doing the shooting in any situation in order to protect my life.
 
@MexicoMike

There are a couple of decision points that lead you to consider "New versus Vintage" in the double rifle world.

I'll start with the false assumption: People will tell you if you buy a new one, you get to use factory ammo, whereas a vintage double rifle requires a custom load. That is almost totally false. The new double rifle is regulated for a very particular load from a very specific brand. Within months to years, that manufacturer will change bullets, or change their powder due to supply chain shortages, leaving you with a worthless rifle that cannot hit the broadside of a barn. Factory loads are also excessively violent in their recoil due to the powders they select. So from the start, new versus vintage, get it in your head that you need a regulating load developed so the rifle is accurate and functional indefinitely.

Now on to the biggest thing between a a modern versus vintage double rifle. To be specific, I'm talking about a modern Heym because they are extremely durable with excellent metallurgy, not all new guns can shoot monometal solids so don't paint with a broad brush.

Generally:

A Heym modern double rifle (and a few others, but not most) can be regulated to use all-copper and copper-allow monometal solids. Their metallurgy allows you to do horrible things to the rifle with good chances that the barrels stay together and you do not irrepairably damage the weapon.

A vintage British double is superior to a Heym in every conceivable way. Aesthetic. Handmade quality, balance, fit and finish, etc. The one detraction for a vintage british double rifle is they must use traditional cup-and-core, lead core FMJ solids and their corresponding softs. They were designed and regulated for these bullets and these bullets are softer than the barrels which are not as good of metallurgy as a modern Heym. In short, a vintage British Double is like a Ferrari, you can't buy one and then bemoan that it won't run on 87 octane fuel. You'll need to seek out and hoard the bullets that work with a vintage double and manage supply chain concerns as they come in and out of production every few years. Hornady DGS and DGX are available in most calibers and serve this purpose, even better are woodleigh softs and woodleigh traditional FMJ solids that are a bit harder to find in some calibers.

That's the big difference. I've loved the Heyms I've owned, I've truly loved the British rifles I've owned. Both are wholly reliable and sufficient for dangerous game hunting if properly maintained. They Heym needs far less scrutiny to its serviceability because they are 1-30 years old and the vintage British rifle is 75-125 years old.

Some caveat emptor on modern Double Rifles. I know that Rigby will not authorize hand loaded monometal solids. I believe Merkel and Krieghoff as well, but double check on the latter two. Either way, I'm not spending "British Rifle" money on anything modern that isn't a Heym or something very rare with impeccable reputation. (e.g. Hartmann and Weis, Marcel Thys, etc.)
At the time that I had my VC built (2012) they guaranteed their doubles with monometal bullets. I don't know about now.
 
At the time that I had my VC built (2012) they guaranteed their doubles with monometal bullets. I don't know about now.

Thank you for that insight. Is Verney Carron still in business? I know they were going through struggles and then they did a pivot to supplying the Ukraine war effort. (Same story with Kynoch ammunition too)
 
I will agree with rookhawk's assessment on British vintage vs newer Double Rifles, but then again I'm somewhat an English gun snob...
Where I will disagree is his comment on bullet construction and older doubles
Below are links to a study on Bullets, Barrel Strain and Double Rifles



You will see that conventional Cup and Core Bullets produce more barrel pressure than modern bullets like Northfork and CEB
After research I chose CEBs for my 1903 Gibbs a 450NE 20+ years ago and have not looked back
 
@Red Leg and @rookhawk are probably the best double resources here…

I’m very new to the double world on the rifle side of the house, but have owned several O/U and SxS shotguns over the years…

My wife’s double rifle is a Chapuis.. but.. the gun was a gift… neither she or I had much involvement in the decision making process… that said, so far I’ve found it to be an excellent rifle… at the price point I’m not sure there is a better option out there for new guns… JJ has her gun right now (had him fit her last week).. he is a big fan of their design and quality and used to sell a lot of their guns himself… he I think most would agree is one of if not THE authority on doubles in the US…

Now that all of that’s out of the way.. I think the answer to your question largely depends on your values and intent…

Are you looking at the gun as an investment? A working piece of art? Or as a tool? Or a combination of all three? I think the answers to those questions will for the most part drive the final decision..
It depends…Of my 8 DRs I have done both with good results with the new ones. However I am a very nostalgic, classical Africa hunter…I value the Vintage so much more which is why I have kept my Rigby 450 NE built in 1905 as my rifle of choice. Here are the two keys: 1. if like me you value vintage highly budget from $1-$3,000 to get the rifle back to perfect mechnically. 2. Always send the vintage rifle to JJ Perodeau to get it back to perfect working order given he is the best in the world
 
I will agree with rookhawk's assessment on British vintage vs newer Double Rifles, but then again I'm somewhat an English gun snob...
Where I will disagree is his comment on bullet construction and older doubles
Below are links to a study on Bullets, Barrel Strain and Double Rifles



You will see that conventional Cup and Core Bullets produce more barrel pressure than modern bullets like Northfork and CEB
After research I chose CEBs for my 1903 Gibbs a 450NE 20+ years ago and have not looked back


@zephyr no disagreement, I’m proficient and incompetent at the same time. Pressure curves due to powder, bullet, and primer are important. I am not a ballistician.

What I can say is horrible things happen when we deviate from the plot. You are welcome to disagree as to causality, whether bullet diameter, powder type, metallurgy, or wad.

All I know is that if we copy the cordite pressure curve and we reproduce the burn rate, bullet construction, and velocity, the same 100 year old results happen:

The burden of proof is on the modern monometal to create a safe load and explain causation for the horrible stories of the past 20 years.
 
I have decided that my interest is in a "vintage" British double. However, there is no way my finances will allow me to purchase the "big" names that I am familiar with (Purdy, H&H, Westley Richards, Rigby, etc). I see doubles from other British makers that I am not familiar with which are far less expensive, Greener, Evans, and Lang are some that I've seen. Are the "lesser known" (and less expensive) British doubles worth considering? Again, the planned use includes extensive shooting/hunting; I would not be treating it as a "collector" or display-only piece.
 
I have decided that my interest is in a "vintage" British double. However, there is no way my finances will allow me to purchase the "big" names that I am familiar with (Purdy, H&H, Westley Richards, Rigby, etc). I see doubles from other British makers that I am not familiar with which are far less expensive, Greener, Evans, and Lang are some that I've seen. Are the "lesser known" (and less expensive) British doubles worth considering? Again, the planned use includes extensive shooting/hunting; I would not be treating it as a "collector" or display-only piece.


During my short vintage British double learning curve. I’ve learned that you buy each firearm on its own merits.

An average beat up, off face, sleeved, bad measurements H&H built by another lesser maker selling for $4k seems like good deal.

Until you lay it next to a less well known or 3rd tier maker that is their “Best” example with good measurements in immaculate condition.

Buy each on its own merits. Not by the brand
 

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Are you on Arkansas hunting net to?
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