Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[mark-hunter]

Hunting the big 5 is not really that dangerous.

Lets change the word "dangerous" to the word "the risks involved".

1. pay all in advance, but hunt is not guaranteed to be successful, maybe trophy fee will be paid back in case animal is not taken or wounded.
If you consider day rate 1k - 2.5K per day. Repetitive hunts will make trophy fee look like peanuts.
This happens often with leopard. Psychological stress, not seeing the animal till last day, on that day rate is bad.

2. Bad shooting: can result in loss of wounded animal, and payable trophy fee.

3. Bad shooting: can result in charge, but also getting the animal, with additional adrenaline boost.

4. Bad shooting: can result in a charge, and somebody loosing the life

5. Bad shooting: can result in charge, and somebody loosing the life, not only by the animal, but by other armed persons in the hunting party. (at least one report on the forum, with that outcome, IP survived the gun shot)

6. Spending days on a track of wounded animal, is psychologic stress to entire hunting party.

All above does not happen on general plains game hunt.

Overall, it is not so much about being dangerous, it is more about potential of danger if something goes wrong.
I think that with buffalo you never know what happens after first shot. They rarely fall with one bullet.

When I was hunting buffalo in Caprivi 2024, only in that month I remember two fatalities during buffalo hunt were reported in different countries on this forum.
But real numbers we will never know.

 

[farmer_john]

Lets change the word "dangerous" to the word "the risks involved".

1. pay all in advance, but hunt is not guaranteed to be successful, maybe trophy fee will be paid back in case animal is not taken or wounded.
If you consider day rate 1k - 2.5K per day. Repetitive hunts will make trophy fee look like peanuts.
This happens often with leopard. Psychological stress, not seeing the animal till last day, on that day rate is bad.

2. Bad shooting: can result in loss of wounded animal, and payable trophy fee.

3. Bad shooting: can result in charge, but also getting the animal, with additional adrenaline boost.

4. Bad shooting: can result in a charge, and somebody loosing the life

5. Bad shooting: can result in charge, and somebody loosing the life, not only by the animal, but by other armed persons in the hunting party. (at least one report on the forum, with that outcome, IP survived the gun shot)

6. Spending days on a track of wounded animal, is psychologic stress to entire hunting party.

All above does not happen on general plains game hunt.

Overall, it is not so much about being dangerous, it is more about potential of danger if something goes wrong.
I think that with buffalo you never know what happens after first shot. They rarely fall with one bullet.

When I was hunting buffalo in Caprivi 2024, only in that month I remember two fatalities during buffalo hunt were reported in different countries on this forum.
But real numbers we will never know.

Not trying to be a dick. But thats hunting in general. I can put in for points to get an elk tag anf go out and not get an elk. Hell can stroll in my backbyard and the deer can choose to not to show up. If ibwanted 100% sucess rate id go to a feed lot and shoot a cow.

Theres risks your house could catch fire every meal you cook

Risk you could die driving to/from work.

Risk hurricane can flatten your house.

Lifes full of risks.

And two fatalities in a month continent wide.... thats not really alot. I think if you broke that down X number of big 5 hunters a year vs how many are badly wounded by animal or killed.
Its a very very small %. Like id be more worried about food poisoning or malaria.


Ive been in warzones with less psycological stress than you described above. Where literally death can come at any moment amd for the most part everyones having a grand old time outside tbe dying bit wich happens.

Maybe your in the wrong sport If your that worried.

 

[mark-hunter]

Maybe your in the wrong sport If your that worried.

I dont know about you, but I can not afford multiple DG hunts every year, and year after year.
So, yes I am motivated to have succesful hunt.

I am not sure if that qualifies for wrong sport. But if it does, it then qualifies only for the rich.

Comparing DG hunt with elk hunt?

hmmmm
I wonder what that famous Mark Sullivan would say on that?

 

[Betterinthebush]

We also keep shooting a bear until it stops moving. We don’t wait for a wounded bear to charge and then shoot.

My master guide had a bang-flop on a toad of an Interrior grizz with a client when I was apprenticing with him. Still had him drop another two shots into it. Never forgot that lesson.

 

[farmer_john]

I dont know about you, but I can not afford multiple DG hunts every year, and year after year.
So, yes I am motivated to have succesful hunt.

I am not sure if that qualifies for wrong sport. But if it does, it then qualifies only for the rich.

Comparing DG hunt with elk hunt?

hmmmm
I wonder what that famous Mark Sullivan would say on that?

Bro your all over the place.
First the OP is talking about how its physically dangerous.
Then you change it to how much anxiety it causes.

As for the elk comparison yes its the same if your using your metrics vs the OP danger metrics.
Going on a hunt after drawing elk tags on public land is not a 100% sucess rate. And does incure some financial risk. For those who dont live in states with elk.

As for affordability of multiple hunts thats not what the threads about. You created a straw man argument when the Op was proven false about how high your anxiety levels are vs the risk toblife and limb. And as stated if hunting causes you that much stress dont do it. Golf has alot lower risks.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

It is dangerous game because if provoked, these animals do their best to kill whoever provoked them. The legally required PH mitigates most of any danger.

Without a PH, the death toll of dangerous game hunters would be significantly higher.

 

[mark-hunter]

And as stated if hunting causes you that much stress dont do it.

If the hunt does not cause some emotions on a hunter.... hmmm... you name it, "the emotions"....
They are very hard to describe, like any other personal thing.

Some hunters call it "buck fever", but that does not fit the African hunting environment fpor me, and I can not find perfect description. So, if there is no some emotions involved, or stress, or sweat, or hopes, or the trophy being deserved, then there is no reason to hunt, or it would be called just a cold bloody killing of animal don't you think?
There must be emotional connection to it. At least in my perspective.
But to each his own.

Did you hunt any of the big 5, or DG7?

 

[farmer_john]

If the hunt does not cause some emotions on a hunter.... hmmm... you name it, "the emotions"....
They are very hard to describe, like any other personal thing.

Some hunters call it "buck fever", but that does not fit the African hunting environment fpor me, and I can not find perfect description. So, if there is no some emotions, or stress, or the trophy being deserved, then there is no reason to hunt, or it would be called just a cold blooded killing of animal don't you think?
There must be emotional connection to it. At least in my perspective.
But to each his own.

Did you hunt any of the big 5, or DG7?

Lol. Your shifting again.
Going from. The big five are dangerous cause they can kill you.

To anxiety over finances.

To now buck fever/the emotional connection to the hunt/ process?

Wich is it. Because from my persoective its all over the place.

Your six bullet ooints can be distilled to 3..

1. If you can afford to hunt go and enjoy the experience.

If you cannot afford it or it will majorly stress you. Then dont do it...

2-5. Dont suck.
You shoukd show up having practiced enough with your chosen rifle to get the job done.
Be confident in that and dont worry about what ifs. Your training will take over.

6. How about going back to 2-5
Dont suck at shooting
taking bad shots makes that alot less realistic.


Like seriously. Theres nothing to worry about based on your own post.
And if you feel there is like literally almost all those dissapear with more time at the range.

 

[mark-hunter]

1. If you can afford to hunt go and enjoy the experience.

Of course. And make the best out of it.

2-5. Dont suck.
You shoukd show up having practiced enough with your chosen rifle to get the job done.
Be confident in that and dont worry about what ifs. Your training will take over.

I never complained on my shooting. In fact in Africa, in 5 safaris I am 100/100.
You could ask that first.

But the point is, nobody is perfect, I am not perfect, and mistake can happen.
With DG I had perfect shots (in the mixed ratio of skill, opportunity and luck, hitting exactly where I wanted), but with plains game although I was equally successful I had less then perfect shots, that 2 or 3 times required 2nd shot.

With a really bad shot, the the hunter will have to live with it. Or get mauled.

But the point is, I am aware I am not perfect. And I can make mistake.
Despite the fact I train regularly.

6. How about going back to 2-5
Dont suck at shooting
taking bad shots makes that alot less realistic.

As per above

Like seriously. Theres nothing to worry about based on your own post.

I agree, nothing to worry about in my post.

Noted, you did not comment of your DG experience.

 

[farmer_john]

Of course. And make the best out of it.

I never complained on my shooting. In fact in Africa, in 5 safaris I am 100/100.
You could ask that first.

But the point is, nobody is perfect, I am not perfect, and mistake can happen.
With DG I had perfect shots (in the mixed ratio of skill, opportunity and luck, hitting exactly where I wanted), but with plains game although I was equally successful I had less then perfect shots, that 2 or 3 times required 2nd shot.

With a really bad shot, the the hunter will have to live with it. Or get mauled.

But the point is, I am aware I am not perfect. And I can make mistake.
Despite the fact I train regularly.


As per above

I agree, nothing to worry about in my post.

Noted, you did not comment of your DG experience.

You wouldnt believe half of them if i told you.
Its not Internet fodder for strangers.

And im not here to try to go down the logicsl fallacy of appeal to authority.

My points are valid on their own merit

 

[SLG]

There is video of him not immediately dispatching a wounded buffalo when he had plenty of opportunity to kill it. Instead, he waits for a charge. This prolonged the suffering.

In another video, he positions himself, instead of the hunter, in the best position to shoot a hippo on land. The hippo later charges while the hunter is off to the side with a bad angle and obstructions in the way. Mark shoots the hippo and then the hunter shoots later. I don’t know about you but I’m not paying thousands of dollars to have my PH become the hunter.

I’m all for a PH or guide helping dispatch wounded game. I’ve had to help put brown bears down in Alaska a few times when guiding but I always set the hunter up in the best spot. As a hunter, I don’t want a guide shooting my animals and putting himself in the best position when there is time to get setup properly for the hunter to be in the primary position. Therefore, I would never set myself up in the primary position when guiding.

We also keep shooting a bear until it stops moving. We don’t wait for a wounded bear to charge and then shoot.

I'm glad you brought this up again. I do not agree with waiting for a charge if you are in a good position to end the animals suffering. How Iong did he wait?
I am not interested in a PH shooting my game at all. I am under the impression that his clients are ok with it though, as I have seen reported in the past. If so, then that is their issue, not yours or mine. Of course, very few hunters know how to shot at all, so I'm sure plenty of PH's keep their trigger fingers busy. That is of course, not the same as taking a shot instead of the client, if the client can and wants to.

 

[mark-hunter]

You wouldnt believe half of them if i told you.
Its not Internet fodder for strangers.

And im not here to try to go down the logicsl fallacy of appeal to authority.

My points are valid on their own merit

Well its all clear, isnt it?

Stay well, good hunting!

 

[farmer_john]

Well its all clear, isnt it?

Stay well, good hunting!

Whats all clear?
non sequiturs are about as clear as mud

 

[BJH65]

Not trying to steal anyones thunder but no
Hunting the big 5 is not really that dangerous.
Of all the folks hunting every year how many die. Does it have a level of risk. Yes it does but theres alot of risk mitigation and backup shooters to minimize that risk.

Im pretty confident my commute to work has higher odds of death or crippling injury

Statically speaking, yes it’s not common for the visiting hunter to be mauled, gored or trampled by the Big Five. The vast majority are after Cape buffalo which makes sense that accounts for the most deaths for visiting hunters and their PH’s. Unfortunately all too common with PH’s from what we see lately.

I would say if more hunters were trying to sort out a tusk-less elephant in an irritated herd, hound hunts for leopard or tracking hunts for leopard and lion, the incidents of being injured and/or killed would be higher.

I think the vast majority of AH members who seek out the Big Five prepare themselves accordingly by practicing with their rifle and being very familiar with it, studying their quarries anatomy, doing everything possible in making a precise killing shot to the vitals. Additionally, insuring that they are in the best physical condition they can be.

Also making the decision not to shoot if it’s a risky or low percentage shot. Remember, they are knowingly placing themselves in potential danger which is different than blissfully driving along then getting into an accident.

As a former marine and 25 year law enforcement veteran, our job was to run towards danger. You could argue that law enforcement ranks 20th nationally as far as dangerous jobs go but that is factoring in a wide variety of agencies from different geographical areas.

So take my agency for example, 1700 deputies and 11 killed in the line of duty during my 25 years there before I retired. But let’s extrapolate, those 11 of my friends killed were assigned to patrol operations which consisted of 300 deputies patrolling well over a million population into inner urban areas.

Then that’s a 1 in 27 chance of being killed during the 25 years I worked there not even factoring in life altering injuries or deaths from work related injuries and disease caused or exacerbated by LE work.

What helps to mitigate some of the danger are utilizing good tactics at all times, being in good physical condition, and using one’s brain housing group. These are things hunters seeking the Big 5 do as well.

The potential of being killed or injured hunting DG is minimal but it’s not removed, the possibility is always there which makes it exciting. I encourage you to go on a Cape buffalo hunt. Look at how the bulls look at you in person.

They do not like humans. If an animal is capable of hate, then they hate you and if you don’t do your job correctly by placing your first shot into the vitals, those statistics have now drastically changed! Now it’s game on and the danger level has now increased substantially for all involved, PH, Tracker, Hunter and anyone else in the party.

Do your job right and there is back slapping, hugs, handshakes and photographs. This is what usually happens and what we as hunters want to happen. But every now and then, Murphy shows up.

 

[mark-hunter]

Whats all clear?

African DG experience?

 

[farmer_john]

African DG experience?

Are you incapable of refuting my arguments on merit?
Because thats what it seems like. And ive personally never slotted any floppies in the bush alot of my friends have I have not

 

[Red Leg]

There are any number of members of this forum who have combat experience. I think that most would agree that it is not the same as dangerous game hunting - particularly up close on buffalo or elephant. That is absolutely not to say dangerous game is more life threatening than an incoming 122 or 152 rd or an IED lighting off on a roadway. Neither would be jumping into an arena with a Spanish fighting bull. But simply assuming one's training will always resolve the issue and that there is no risk involved would not be the conclusion most combat veterans I know would take away from an encounter with a slightly wrong hit buffalo, elephant, lion, or leopard.

It is also very true, that the more likely victim of a buffalo or elephant attack will be the PH. We seem to lose one or two every year as clients either incompetently or over confidently manage to put that first shot in exactly the wrong place.

So yes, we have the guns and the dugga boys do not. And given a choice, I certainly will opt for the Caprivi or Delta over anywhere I mucked around the Middle East. But to assume that because we have been "shot at without result," as Winston Churchill put it, somehow makes us experienced dangerous game hunters would be a mistake.

 

[DieJager]

I ran into Mark at DSC and he is still guiding in Tanzania. As a matter of fact, we discussed a buffalo and hippo hunt on dry land.

If anyone wishes to contact him, send me a DM and I'll give you his cell/WhatsApp number.

I've sent you a DM

 

[farmer_john]

Statically speaking, yes it’s not common for the visiting hunter to be mauled, gored or trampled by the Big Five. The vast majority are after Cape buffalo which makes sense that accounts for the most deaths for visiting hunters and their PH’s. Unfortunately all too common with PH’s from what we see lately.

I would say if more hunters were trying to sort out a tusk-less elephant in an irritated herd, hound hunts for leopard or tracking hunts for leopard and lion, the incidents of being injured and/or killed would be higher.

I think the vast majority of AH members who seek out the Big Five prepare themselves accordingly by practicing with their rifle and being very familiar with it, studying their quarries anatomy, doing everything possible in making a precise killing shot to the vitals. Additionally, insuring that they are in the best physical condition they can be.

Also making the decision not to shoot if it’s a risky or low percentage shot. Remember, they are knowingly placing themselves in potential danger which is different than blissfully driving along then getting into an accident.

As a former marine and 25 year law enforcement veteran, our job was to run towards danger. You could argue that law enforcement ranks 20th nationally as far as dangerous jobs go but that is factoring in a wide variety of agencies from different geographical areas.

So take my agency for example, 1700 deputies and 11 killed in the line of duty during my 25 years there before I retired. But let’s extrapolate, those 11 of my friends killed were assigned to patrol operations which consisted of 300 deputies patrolling well over a million population into inner urban areas.

Then that’s a 1 in 27 chance of being killed during the 25 years I worked there not even factoring in life altering injuries or deaths from work related injuries and disease caused or exacerbated by LE work.

What helps to mitigate some of the danger are utilizing good tactics at all times, being in good physical condition, and using one’s brain housing group. These are things hunters seeking the Big 5 do as well.

The potential of being killed or injured hunting DG is minimal but it’s not removed, the possibility is always there which makes it exciting. I encourage you to go on a Cape buffalo hunt. Look at how the bulls look at you in person.

They do not like humans. If an animal is capable of hate, then they hate you and if you don’t do your job correctly by placing your first shot into the vitals, those statistics have now drastically changed! Now it’s game on and the danger level has now increased substantially for all involved, PH, Tracker, Hunter and anyone else in the party.

Do your job right and there is back slapping, hugs, handshakes and photographs. This is what usually happens and what we as hunters want to happen. But every now and then, Murphy shows up.

Sure. But the mark keeps pivoting his position to try to make it something else.

No one is arguing there isnt risk. Theres a level of risk in everything in life some things much more than others.

His arguments have gone its dangerous. Amd can be but the guide and everyone involved do their best to mitigate that and do so generally very sucessfully.

Then he pivotes it to his anxiety level. While hunting.

Since he cant counter those arguments hes shifted to appeal to authority. What dg experience do you have.

It has some danger but not the danger people make it out to be. It could be but generally its not. So why he was going on about being so anxious i dont get it.

Im sure hes a great guy just dont see some ofbthe points making sense.

 

[DieJager]

Neither would be jumping into an arena with a Spanish fighting bull.

This is a great analogy. It made me think about one of my earlier replies earlier to this thread. ( I think or it was in a similar thread)

I understand all the different points made by different members and I respect all of the different opinions.

My two cents...How I see this is that mister Sullivan approaches this the same like a matador in the arena. Does this delay the death of the bull yes it does sometimes. Still it probably dies faster than waiting 30 minutes to let it expire.

I think in some instances he doesn't shoot when he could. He wants the bull to make a choice fight or flight. Only then he will shoot. When the bull has made it choice he shoots during the charge or when it flees. I still do not see any evidence he on purpose wounds them, I see some bad shooting from clients but not mister Sullivan. He clearly states this is the way he hunts.

I think the same people who enjoy a bullfight enjoy his style of hunting buffalo. That said there also are big differences. When the first shot is in the vitals it is certain death. The bull in the arena can even win and live his life in the pastures ( small chance but better than certain death i.e. slaughter). Saying that a bad not lethal shot on buffalo and you will have a similar scenario.

Is this wright or wrong?