Looking for Experience importing UK rifle into EU

VertigoBE

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Hi all,

I wanted to reach out to any European members on AH, who have experience with the purchasing and subsequent importation of a rifle from the UK into Europe (Belgium is final destination)

I’m looking into participating to an auction by Holts auctioneers (thanks to @rookhawk for the tip) but since Brexit at the end of last year, there is a lot of conflicting information on this topic. Including from Holts.

If you have experience in this and are willing to share, please reach out to me!

@BRICKBURN : if this is not the right place on the forum, do not hesitate to move this thread :)

Thanks a lot in advance!

Ps: if I am successful I won’t hesitate to share some pics afterwards :)
 
I have permanently imported rifles from the EU to the UK, and temporarily exported from the UK to the EU.

It is effectively impossible to move rifles at the moment. I have a Mannlicher Schöenauer in .458 Winchester Magnum which has been marooned in France for the last 18 months, and goodness knows when I am going to get it. The problem is a combination of the EU tightening firearms restrictions and increasing bureaucracy (in order to prevent excitable Muslims getting their mitts on rifles) and Chinese flu travel restrictions. Even the French - who used to be far more level-headed than the British - have gone completely mad on the issue, but then they have suffered terribly from the over-excited adherents of Allah.

I would recommend Harry Gordon - https://www.highwoodclassicarms.co.uk/export.htm - as the person to deal with. He his also Holt's recommended shipper, but he is going to cost you. I expect, though, that he will tell you exactly the same as me. Off the top of my head, I think you are probably looking at around £750+ for his services.

Holts will generally store any purchased rifle and - the last time I checked - did not charge for storage.

The best way of getting your rifle will almost certainly be to do it yourself. Add the serial number of your purchase on to your Belgian firearms certificate (for when you import it). You will then have to travel to the middle of nowhere, or Norfolk as we call it, where Mr. Holt lives in his hobbit-hole, to pick it up. I have dealt with the UK customs on this issue previously, and they were surprisingly helpful and efficient. You will need to work through this form: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-general-transhipment-licence-sporting-guns . If you plan to bring the rifle back on a ferry, declare it to the customs but not to the ferry personnel as they might case problems - either demanding that you lock it up in their ship's locker or - worst case - refusing you carriage.

Just as an aside, in the old days I added the serial numbers to my British and EU firearms passes and that was enough to be handed a rifle and to buy ammunition. With Brexit, we British are no longer allowed to use the EU firearms pass, so the simple route is out.

As another aside, I found that when travelling with firearms between EU countries the customs officers generally had the attitude that as long as the paperwork was correct there was no issue. There was a general assumption that, as a firearms owner, you had already jumped through the hoops and they did not need to - for example - search through your car and sniff your dirty underpants. I never had any problem with the customs and my various rifles.

Don't forget that you will now have to pay VAT on any rifle that you import, as a result of Brexit.

I should make two points absolutely clear: firstly, I am sure that it would be possible for you to pick up and export a rifle, either personally or through Mr. Gordon, but it is going to cost you. If you do it yourself, there is unlikely to be any cost saving once you add in the costs of your time and travel and aggro. Secondly, the EU bureaucrats are making it more and more difficult to own and transport rifles, and particularly to buy in one country and export to another. I had been toying with the idea of setting up a business buying rifles in Europe to sell in the UK, but the difficulty and cost of dealing with the bureaucracy meant that I very quickly gave up on the idea; it would simply have been uneconomical.

Finally, I am not an expert on the subject, so this is general advice only and I do not accept any responsibility if you have any problems.
 
Lot of good info given any hints on what you are going to buy on auction?
 
@Major Bonkers gave sound advice @VertigoBE regarding Harry Gordon. I've used him a number of times for export, just not for the same direction you need the parcel to go.

If there is mass inefficiency of export due to Covid at present, this may be very much in your favor as it could have a chilling effect on the hammer prices. Patience may afford you a discount.
 
Another possible shipper is PDQ Freight, and ask for Bob Nagra. I have not used him myself, but he has been recommended to me. I can't remember why I didn't use him - perhaps there was a difficulty with Covid or dealing with Europe?

The other problem to be aware of is that gun and rifle auctions in the UK are basically a cartel between Holts, Bonhams, and Gavin Gardiner, all charging remarkably high and similar level of commissions - fancy that! - in the knowledge that there is no real alternative. The best is GG, although he does tend to talk your ears off. Christies and Sothebys have long abandoned the market; I suspect from the difficulty of dealing with the police.

Alternate auctioneers are Wilson55 (good) and Southams (not particularly customer-focussed).

In Europe, the Dorotheum holds regular sporting guns auctions (in fact, there's one next month), although they tend to feature weird calibres and funky germanic designs. Bearing in mind that they are European, it would probably be far easier for you to deal with them rather than Holts.

If you are new to the process of buying firearms at auction, be aware of the problems. You will have the initial purchase price, plus the auctioneer's buyer's commission of 30%-ish. If the firearm has been imported into the UK for sale, there will be VAT at 20% to pay on the purchase price (but not the auctioneer's commission). You are, therefore, almost up to half as much again as the amount that you bid. You might be able to reclaim VAT on exporting the rifle, but then you become liable to it when importing it at the other end: dealing with VAT is always a headache. If you need to store or ship the weapon, you are also likely to be charged heavily for both of those options. Also, be aware of the exchange rate; at the moment, the pound is relatively strong against the euro, which effectively means that you will end up paying more.
 
Lot of good info given any hints on what you are going to buy on auction?
by the end of the 20th I'll uplift a part from the veil :)
 
@Major Bonkers

thanks a lot for all the information that you have given me and the time you took to write it all out! To summarise your thoughts I see the following options:

1. I get import papers from Belgian government myself, drive by car (using Euro Tunnel) to the UK, go pick up the rifle at Holts, receive a copy of their UK export papers, drive it back over the frontiers and continue the declaration process in Belgium.

2. I hire the services of a shipper (Harry Gordon or PDQ Freight), pay them a hefty fee to do the import into Belgium for me. (I have already checked with gunshops around me, they are not interested in helping out with this)

3. I forget about buying something at Holts and try my luck elsewhere (Dorotheum for example). Which would be a bit unfortunate as I strongly fancy an item from Holts. I did check their website out, they have an auction running on the 1st of October, but no catalogue available online yet it seems.

In the first two cases, my cost will look something like this (for an example of 1000£ hammer price)
- Hammer price: 1000£
- Holts fee (25%): 250£
- VAT on Holts fee (20%): 50£
Subtotal: 1300£
In Euro: 1500€

- VAT on item (21%): 210£ or 245€
Total: 1745€

To be added still:
- as unknown, is the transport cost, estimated at 750£ or 870€
- aspirin subscription for the headaches of dealing with UK and EU bureaucrats

One additional remark: As the rifle was produced in Germany, imported into the UK a few years ago, and now I would like to re-import it back into Europe, I might have a slight chance of avoiding the VAT on the item itself, if I can prove all this. Perhaps the current owner would be happy to provide additional documentation?
 
@Major Bonkers gave sound advice @VertigoBE regarding Harry Gordon. I've used him a number of times for export, just not for the same direction you need the parcel to go.

If there is mass inefficiency of export due to Covid at present, this may be very much in your favor as it could have a chilling effect on the hammer prices. Patience may afford you a discount.
Hello @rookhawk

I'm thinking just quite the opposite as far as the effect on hammer prices. With UK buyers also having more difficulty in obtaining EU produced fine arms, it might push up their willingness to pony up more for something that would be more difficult to obtain now...

We'll see. It would make a mighty fine birthday gift for myself!
 
Hello @Major Bonkers and @rookhawk ,

just a short update, I have written both Harry Gordon and PDQ Freight , but no response so far. I'll give them a call tomorrow if I have no return by then. In the mean time Holts is staying mum too, so I have sent them a reminder. The Belgian office for strategic goods (in charge of the import and export of firearms amongst others) is not responsive either.

Very much hoping I'll get some answers soon, so I'll be able to make my bid's in confidence :)

Less than 7 days remaining until the hammer falls!

cheers,

Vertigo
 
Keep us posted and good luck.
 
Well some good news today, Holts came through and identified their representative for Belgium. I called the guy and although he has not done the whole import thing yet since Brexit, he gave his word that he is willing to go through the long process. At the very least this will mean that I do not have to do the importation myself. It does seem likely however that I will be liable to pay the VAT on the item(s) once back imported into Belgium…

We shall see on Monday!
 
It does seem likely however that I will be liable to pay the VAT on the item(s) once back imported into Belgium…

Does the seller add UK VAT to the sale price? If so, being an export sale it should be VAT exempt or refunded from the British side, so that you are not charged the tax twice.
 
Does the seller add UK VAT to the sale price? If so, being an export sale it should be VAT exempt or refunded from the British side, so that you are not charged the tax twice.

No, that part is pretty clear. There will be no VAT charged on the UK side, only on the Belgium side.
 
Well, it looks like I’ll need to get some import and export papers figured out :D
 
Lot of good info given any hints on what you are going to buy on auction?
So lifting the veil a little bit: it's a Heym double... :D
 
And a big thanks to @rookhawk, for his invaluable advice!
This forum and its members are truly the greatest online gathering in existence :)
 
And a big thanks to @rookhawk, for his invaluable advice!
This forum and its members are truly the greatest online gathering in existence :)

You're very welcome, @VertigoBE

It's your rifle so I won't steal your thunder, but would you care to show the group what you bought?

In my opinion, one of the finest quality heyms ever made. I think you paid 1/2 to 1/3 of what its manufacturing cost would be so you did very well. Heck, you paid less than a pedestrian bare-bones PH model would cost by a significant amount. Well done.
 
Well, sure I'd like to share! I do not have it in my hands yet, it will take another 2-3 months for the whole import procedure to complete.

I'll create a separate thread for it though, as I'd like to put the description as well with it.

Cheers,

V.
 
Congrats !!!!
 
Vertigo - there is a ferry from the Hook of Holland to Harwich. They also have an overnight sailing. I have taken this ferry many times and it is quite comfortable. From Harwich to Holts will take you approximately 2 1/2 hours to drive.

Theoretically, you could arrive on the overnight ferry, which will put you on the road at about 7am. You can then pick up your new rifle, have a good lunch, and motor down to rejoin the ferry for the return trip that evening, at around 9:30pm, with everything sorted out in one day.
 

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