Long Range Precision Hunting - Recoil/Caliber vs. Terminal Ballistics

HookMeUpII

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This question warrants a little backstory. I've hunted 90% waterfowl for the 10 years I've been hunting (late bloomer, started at age 30). 1-2 years ago I pulled the trigger on a rare "Maple White Gold Medallion" Browning X-Bolt in 300WM which has a Leupold VX5HD in 3-15x 44mm on it. In love with the gun but there's one problem: It's just too pretty to potentially be dragging through a forest in NA in the rain, mud, and brush. Same goes for thick bush hunts in Africa and other areas. For RSA in May it will be fine, which is what I bought it for. But after that it will likely be relinquished to the safe as a sort of heirloom and/or brought back to Africa for plains game in the future.

Now I am really thinking for the future, especially with my son as a hunting buddy. I'd like to potentially get another rifle in maybe a different caliber. Something with more of a robust finish for dragging through brush, something with a slightly heavier precision barrel, and setup for more long range opportunities (300 yd plus).

Being new to this, I've gotten swept up in the caliber debate.

300WM - Hits like a freight train at 500 yds, minimal drop, but the recoil is a bit much. Plus I already have one.
6.5 Creed - Minimal drop, but terminal ballistics lack the energy for bigger game.
308 - Great tried and true round, but tons of drop at 500 yds.
30-06 - See 308

I'm really interested in the PRC calibers like 6.5PRC for example. But how is the recoil? It seems like the 6.5 PRC might fit the bill with 25% less reported recoil than the 300WM.

Any other suggestions to think outside of the box here?

EDIT: 7mm Rem Mag looks pretty solid in terms of ballistics vs. recoil as well.
 
If you don't reload then look at what ammunition is readily available.

I wouldn't get caught up too much in caliber, I have all the above mentioned calibers and they all will work for out to 400yds on NA game. If you're talking past 400yds then you'll want to step into the magnum realm for elk sized animals.

If you plan on hunting elk I would stick with the 7mm and 30cal magnum variants. My main elk rifle is a 300 winmag and 300 norma mag pushing 200+ grain bullets. I've killed alot of elk with lesser calibers to include 6 creed, 6.5 creed. 270 and 6.5PRC and they work ok but not necessarily the best tool for the job.

For a novice shooter I would recommend the 300winmag or 30-06, plenty of gun for 400-500yd shots if you put in your time at the range to become proficient at making those shots. Ammunition is readily available and there is a good variation of quality bullets to be had. A quality optic is crucial for this too, the VX5 you have is a great start.

If I were in your shoes I would buy a Mcmillan stock for your X-bolt and use that for hunting and buy a nice 6.5creedmoor for getting efficient at longer shots on the range. Ammo is cheap and plentiful and it has no recoil. Range time in unconventional shooting positions off the bench is what you really need to make shots in the field. It would also be a good gun for deer, antelope, and varmints.
 
If you don't reload then look at what ammunition is readily available.

I wouldn't get caught up too much in caliber, I have all the above mentioned calibers and they all will work for out to 400yds on NA game. If you're talking past 400yds then you'll want to step into the magnum realm for elk sized animals.

If you plan on hunting elk I would stick with the 7mm and 30cal magnum variants. My main elk rifle is a 300 winmag and 300 norma mag pushing 200+ grain bullets. I've killed alot of elk with lesser calibers to include 6 creed, 6.5 creed. 270 and 6.5PRC and they work ok but not necessarily the best tool for the job.

For a novice shooter I would recommend the 300winmag or 30-06, plenty of gun for 400-500yd shots if you put in your time at the range to become proficient at making those shots. Ammunition is readily available and there is a good variation of quality bullets to be had. A quality optic is crucial for this too, the VX5 you have is a great start.

If I were in your shoes I would buy a Mcmillan stock for your X-bolt and use that for hunting and buy a nice 6.5creedmoor for getting efficient at longer shots on the range. Ammo is cheap and plentiful and it has no recoil. Range time in unconventional shooting positions off the bench is what you really need to make shots in the field. It would also be a good gun for deer, antelope, and varmints.

I am liking your idea with the 7mm. Unfortunately, I cannot disassemble the X-bolt. It was a one time run so I really want to leave it as is. If anything, I'd go with another 300WM but part of me wants variety. I guess even the 6.5 PRC just doesn't have the knockdown power of the magnum calibers.

I actually do have the ability to reload. My brother has a full setup. I would just need to buy the dies and components.

I'd suggest to quit thinking about 300+ yards shooting and try for 200 or less.

Fair statement but not practical. It's unfair for me to criticize you because I didn't say where I live: NJ. We can't even hunt with a rifle here. That being said, I'd probably be a public land draw hunter out west. With limited time to scout with a young one at home and about a 1000-1800 mile drive, opportunities need to be maximized. Scouting out and patterning a bull elk or other animal for weeks just isn't going to happen. Obviously the goal is to get as close as possible. If I've spent 6-7 days driving/backpacking/scouting around and the best shot I can come up with is a 500 yd shot down in a draw? That's what I'll have to settle for. Now, I'd have to be confident and comfortable making that shot. Absolutely NOT a shot I would take unless comfortable. In fact, I probably wouldn't even attempt to draw until I was.

Believe me, I've heard that statement over and over researching this. I get hunting is not about guaranteed success but seeing guys sneaking up 20 yds on bull elk with a bow is not something that happens in 1-2 days. And unfortunately, I may only have 3-4 of actual time on ground.
 
Let me speak frankly.

Thinking you will somehow compensate for unfamiliarity with an area by taking shots at 500 yards at game is one of the worst approaches to hunting I have ever heard. I have hunted for sixty years all over North America (and a few other places) with and without guides and never even considered a 500 yard shot at a game animal. The longest shot I have ever taken at game was a Spanish Ibex at 300.

Steel or paper is a different thing. I'll happily shoot with anyone for a beer here with hunting equipment out to 500 yards and would rarely go thirsty.

The reality is that at 500 yards the average hunter will be lucky to find the actual spot where the animal was standing when the shot was taken. Following a blood trail requires finding blood or prints to trail. Your reasoning sounds like a prescription for wounded and lost game, not a solution to a short duration hunt in unfamiliar conditions.
 
Let me speak frankly.

Thinking you will somehow compensate for unfamiliarity with an area by taking shots at 500 yards at game is one of the worst approaches to hunting I have ever heard. I have hunted for sixty years all over North America (and a few other places) with and without guides and never even considered a 500 yard shot at a game animal. The longest shot I have ever taken at game was a Spanish Ibex at 300.

Steel or paper is a different thing. I'll happily shoot with anyone for a beer here with hunting equipment out to 500 yards and would rarely go thirsty.

The reality is that at 500 yards the average hunter will be lucky to find the actual spot where the animal was standing when the shot was taken. Following a blood trail requires finding blood or prints to trail. Your reasoning sounds like a prescription for wounded and lost game, not a solution to a short duration hunt in unfamiliar conditions.
Exactly!
Long range hunting is not hunting.
 
Let me speak frankly.

Thinking you will somehow compensate for unfamiliarity with an area by taking shots at 500 yards at game is one of the worst approaches to hunting I have ever heard. I have hunted for sixty years all over North America (and a few other places) with and without guides and never even considered a 500 yard shot at a game animal. The longest shot I have ever taken at game was a Spanish Ibex at 300.

Steel or paper is a different thing. I'll happily shoot with anyone for a beer here with hunting equipment out to 500 yards and would rarely go thirsty.

The reality is that at 500 yards the average hunter will be lucky to find the actual spot where the animal was standing when the shot was taken. Following a blood trail requires finding blood or prints to trail. Your reasoning sounds like a prescription for wounded and lost game, not a solution to a short duration hunt in unfamiliar conditions.

Strongly disagree. I have a client who harvested a bull elk across a valley at 600 yds with a 300WM. Granted, with proper training and practice and he was with an outfitter. I also have a friend who harvested a mule deer at about 500-550 in Wyoming (IIRC) with an outfitter. I believe he had a 308 but I may be mistaken. Another friend took a black bear in BC at about 400 yds in a logging chute/draw which he showed me all on video.

I'm sorry but we're at an impasse here. Are long shots ideal? I don't think they ever are. To say "long shots are not hunting" then I guess everyone should be stalking game at 20 yards with a bow? If a hunter feels comfortable with the shot and expects it to be fatal with recovery...just because it's at 300+ yds you just wave goodbye? Sheep, goat, and pronghorn hunters would love this logic.

You do your best to put as little distance between you and the animal as possible but you should also have the ability to maximize an opportunity that you feel comfortable with and will still recover the animal.

I should also add that this isn't even a gleam in my eye. I'm realistically talking years between putting together a proper rifle, putting in the range time (we have up to 600 yds here) and then logistically planning a hunt.
 
Exactly!
Long range hunting is not hunting.

Difference of opinion. Nothing more. There are lot of types of hunting that I personally don't agree with. Like shooting an animal at 10 yds lying under a tree. But I don't criticize them for it. It's a legal means of take. I have buddies who bow hunt here and every one of them has at least one story of an animal that was hit good and not recovered. I don't own a bow, never will. I'm not going to try to fit in deer hunting here because the most convenient means of take is that. Don't believe in it, don't think I ever will. And many regard that as "true hunting."

Once again, and I've said it repeatedly in this post, not something I am going to attempt until I'm supremely comfortable in my abilities. Maybe I won't ever be? Maybe I'll end up with a 7mm RM and never feel comfortable shooting beyond 300? If that's what it is, so be it.

I also just don't believe in scraping by with calibers. That's why I bought a 300WM for RSA. I'm there for the experience but if I do pull the trigger, shot placement aside, I'd rather have overkill than wounded underkill. Also the reason why for waterfowl I don't buy into the sub-gauge craze. 12g, bismuth, all day every day. From teal to geese.

So yeah, you guys are preaching to the choir here.
 
@HookMeUpII Everyone has the right to hunt differently, within the laws of the area. That stated since you appear to be a fisherman, and from a statement you made, perhaps a fishing guide? Great, how about if I bring a case of dynamite on your boat to go fishing via concussion? Does that sound sporting or ethical? Heck no!

In America, game belongs to the people of their respective states. In Africa, if you draw blood, if a tracker sees hair fly, then you WILL pay for the tag for that animal. That might be from a few hundred dollars to over $10,000! If that is Dangerous Game wounded in the bush, then you will have placed the PH and tracker's life in danger. Please do not do that!

I am a pretty fair long range rifleman with a medal from the Wimbledon Cup to prove it. The only thing I'd try shooting at long range, with a long range rifle in Africa would be baboons. That stated, it was much more sporting to sneak up on this one and remove his destructive habits with my trusty 375 H&H at 75 yards.

IMG_20221008_103949782_HDR.jpg
 
Some hunts require specialized equipment. I’ve done a lot of elk and mule deer hunting and have not felt the need to shoot beyond 300ish yards, with typical shots in the 150 to 250 range. Pronghorn can be different, but even there 400 would be a long shot, and frankly, most hunters are not capable of that shot.

I have gotten fairly addicted to Coues deer hunting in recent years. This can necessitate longer shots as cross canyon is the norm and trying to close the distance to the same side of the canyon typically will make a shot impossible. I train at 600 but would have to have ideal conditions to shoot at game at 500.

I’m shooting a custom 6.5 PRC launching 142 gr Accubond LR’s at 2,900 fps. Here is a 100 yard target to give you an idea of the accuracy of this rifle.

Image1679085741.981970.jpg


Obviously, this rifle is very capable of punching steel well out past 1000. I would never consider a shot at game at that distance. IMO, even if the shot solution is calculated perfectly, the time of flight produces far too many variables on a live target.
 
@HookMeUpII Everyone has the right to hunt differently, within the laws of the area. That stated since you appear to be a fisherman, and from a statement you made, perhaps a fishing guide? Great, how about if I bring a case of dynamite on your boat to go fishing via concussion? Does that sound sporting or ethical? Heck no!

In America, game belongs to the people of their respective states. In Africa, if you draw blood, if a tracker sees hair fly, then you WILL pay for the tag for that animal. That might be from a few hundred dollars to over $10,000! If that is Dangerous Game wounded in the bush, then you will have placed the PH and tracker's life in danger. Please do not do that!

I am a pretty fair long range rifleman with a medal from the Wimbledon Cup to prove it. The only thing I'd try shooting at long range, with a long range rifle in Africa would be baboons. That stated, it was much more sporting to sneak up on this one and remove his destructive habits with my trusty 375 H&H at 75 yards.

View attachment 523470

USCG licensed captain of 20 years and counting. Fishing is an entirely different ballgame. I know of individuals running 70 ft + sportfishing yachts with $125,000 forward scan sonar units, which is now the big topic of controversy. Does it make it any easier to find fish? Heck yeah it does. Being able to see what's 1/2 a mile in front of you and all the way to the bottom below you is way better than just below you. Is it any less sporting? I'm not sure to be honest. Do I want one? You better believe I do. But $125,000 isn't in the budget right now and well, unless I win the lottery, neither is the $7-$10mm sportfishing yacht either. We compete (tournament-wise, millions at stake) with a boat half the size, no forward scan, and limited budget. Furthermore, at the end of the day, it still comes down to that same micro-diameter line and hook connecting angler to the fish, combined with the skill of captain, angler, and crew. I've also fished commercial with bandit and electric reels. But that's another topic. Long range shots in hunting is far from fishing with dynamite. Fishing with dynamite is like dumping 500 lbs of corn for deer or high fence limited space hunting. Both of which I'm against but if the person is legal in doing so, that is their choice.

I think we need to back up on the Africa part. I am going to RSA and have no expectation, intention, nor the abilities to make even a 300 yd shot at this time. Nor do I have any illusion that if I could, would it even be an opportunity because all the shots there seem to be 50-100 yds. So we can take that way out of this convo. But I do understand your point on this and appreciate the input.

I personally just don't see it. Someone who is smart, skilled, trained, and understands the proper scenario in which a long range shot has a high level of success is not "fishing with dynamite." But I get the disagreement, I really do.
 
This is where becoming a marksman comes into play, train and become efficient with your equipment, it's that easy!

I really laugh at these comments of 200-300yds being far shots, you have to be joking?? . I have a range with gongs every 100yds to 1760yds and I shoot them all summer. I don't even shoot the 200 and 300 gongs because it's too easy and just tears up the steel. The mere thought of it being "Too far" is comical.

I take hunting very seriously, it's my passion and I have a ton of respect for the animals I pursue and kill. I would never take a shot that I'm not 100% confident in making, my personal ethical limit is 800yds. If you hunt in my AO and only have the ability to shoot 200yds, you'll have less than 5% success rate especially on public land.

Because someone doesn't feel confident in making a shot at 300yds you feel that no one else should either??? I'm in the boat that we should all be on the same team and support other hunters, if a guy wants to learn to shoot better and farther more power to them! Learn the skill and train to be that efficient hunter. Don't judge, bash, and divide us because that is what the anti hunting agenda wants. If it's legal support it, period. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy and it's sad.

Get out there train, shoot, and become deadly.
 
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Obviously, this rifle is very capable of punching steel well out past 1000. I would never consider a shot at game at that distance. IMO, even if the shot solution is calculated perfectly, the time of flight produces far too many variables on a live target.

First off, that's extremely impressive. Do you find the 6.5PRC to have the terminal power for bigger game or are you typically using it for mid-size game like deer/antelope? I'm trying to find a balance between power, recoil, and drop.

I 100% agree with you. I think beyond 600 yds is just not something I could ever see myself being able to do. Wind, obstacles, and other variables weigh in too heavy. The client who shot the elk at 600 across a valley got the holdover from the outfitter who advised him. He told me his holdover was affected due to the early morning cold air pushing out of the valley and the outfitter keyed him in on it. He said he'd have never known he needed to modify it otherwise.

Really, I'm looking for something that's capable. As I said, I want something with a broad scope of applications and abilities for different scenarios. I'd much rather take a shot at 100 yds than 500 yds.
 
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First off, that's extremely impressive. Do you find the 6.5PRC to have the terminal power for bigger game or are you typically using it for mid-size game like deer/antelope? I'm trying to find a balance between power, recoil, and drop.

I 100% agree with you. I think beyond 600 yds is just not something I could ever see myself being able to do. Wind, obstacles, and other variables weigh in too heavy. The client who shot the elk at 600 across a valley got the holdover from the outfitter who advised him. He told me his holdover was affected due to the early morning cold air pushing out of the valley and the outfitter keyed him in on it. He said he'd have never known he needed to modify it otherwise.

Really, I'm looking for something that's capable. As I said, I want something with a broad scope of applications and abilities for different scenarios. I'd much rather take a shot at 100 yds than 500 yds.

The 6.5 PRC is a ballistically similar to the .264 Win Mag with better heavy for caliber bullet capability. The .264 is a proven killer on elk. However, I am far more likely to grab something heavier for elk, in my case a 9.3x62 or .325 WSM.
 
My $0.02

Honestly, you’re overthinking this substantially. A 30-06 or 270 is all that is “needed”. You want a big magnum, get one. If you don’t, then don’t. 6.5 Sweede to 300WM makes little actual difference if you understand the limitations. It’s the user, not the cartridge.

In 15 years of hunting in Arizona and New Mexico, I was always able to get under 100yards while hunting…ALWAYS. Bow range might have been difficult, but 30-06 range was cake. You just have to be willing to sneak, run, and climb. Most people aren’t, and that’s why 500-600 yard shots became common. Belly crawl through cacti, fk yeah, it’s heaven. Smoke one from a grand so I don’t have to? Maybe when I am relegated to a wheelchair.

Pick your poison. Only you’ll know if you made the right choice.
 
@HookMeUpII: I get what you are saying. In my former life, I was a very good shot and I put 10's of thousands of rounds through a 300 Win Mag. Most of my shooting was done on field fire ranges (unknown ranges to targets). This required the ability to make accurate range estimation and wind calls. I also did a lot of shooting on "snaps and movers". These are short time exposure and moving targets. I was pretty darn good. Because I really knew the 300 win mag field ballistics and my capabilities, I had no desire to hunt with anything else. After all, what if the SCI/NCAA/FIFA/NFL/XYZ world record trophy is standing out there in another zip code?? :LOL: I was ready, and I dragged that deadly boat anchor everywhere. Just in case.

As I got older and more busted up, I started reevaluating many things in life. One was how I hunted and what I carried. I have a compulsive habit of writing a lot of hunting and shooting notes. These answer most of my questions. During a review of hunts/shots using my beloved long-range system, it became clear I had not made a single shot that could not have been done with a 30-06 (or most any other comparable cartridge). Life changes brought me back to the beloved cartridge of my youth, the 30-06.

You presented several different questions as well as situations in the title of the thread. These can all spark interesting discussions. Range shooting and field shooting require similar skills and you cannot get good at one without doing the other. However, as I am sure you know, the conditions and standards change greatly.

Having said all of that, whatever you choose, practice to be the best you can. The animals we hunt deserve that. It does not really matter if we have the latest and greatest kit with a Guidance Laser Illumination Device (GLID) attached, sometimes we just have to enjoy watching that trophy of a lifetime walking away.

One last thing, a suppressor lowers felt recoil more than anything I have ever used.

Safe shooting
 
You asked about practical rifles for more rugged hunting, probably smaller than your 300 mag. I’d look hard at a Tikka T3X lite stainless in something like a 270 Win. Not pretty, just brutally effective. I practice to 600 yards and am confident taking game to that range under ideal conditions for me. Meaning no possibility to stalk closer, dead rest, undisturbed game, and no wind. I have a capable rifle system and a bullet that performs to 600 yards and the skill to use it.

Much past 400 yards, at or near sea level, bullet selection becomes a factor in terms of adequate retained velocity for moderate cartridges. You need enough speed to generate adequate bullet expansion at range, especially past 400 and beyond.

That said, my furthest shot at big game to date is 415 yards, one shot kill, and yes it was hunting. That is my only shot at big game over 400. Been a few prairie dogs at 400-450. There are plenty of places out West you will need to shoot well past 300 or pass. I’ve taken a pile of deer, elk and antelope between 300 and 375, one moose at 350. However most of my shots at game have been under 250.

Ignore the naysayers, get the right equipment and practice to find your own lethal limits. Good luck!
 
This is where becoming a marksman comes into play, train and become efficient with your equipment, it's that easy!

I really laugh at these comments of 200-300yds being far shots, you have to be joking?? . I have a range with gongs every 100yds to 1760yds and I shoot them all summer. I don't even shoot the 200 and 300 gongs because it's too easy and just tears up the steel. The mere thought of it being "Too far" is comical.

I take hunting very seriously, it's my passion and I have a ton of respect for the animals I pursue and kill. I would never take a shot that I'm not 100% confident in making, my personal ethical limit is 800yds. If you hunt in my AO and only have the ability to shoot 200yds, you'll have less than 5% success rate especially on public land.

Because someone doesn't feel confident in making a shot at 300yds you feel that no one else should either??? I'm in the boat that we should all be on the same team and support other hunters, if a guy wants to learn to shoot better and farther more power to them! Learn the skill and train to be that efficient hunter. Don't judge, bash, and divide us because that is what the anti hunting agenda wants. If it's legal support it, period. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy and it's sad.

Get out there train, shoot, and become deadly.
Well said.
 
Strongly disagree. I have a client who harvested a bull elk across a valley at 600 yds with a 300WM. Granted, with proper training and practice and he was with an outfitter. I also have a friend who harvested a mule deer at about 500-550 in Wyoming (IIRC) with an outfitter. I believe he had a 308 but I may be mistaken. Another friend took a black bear in BC at about 400 yds in a logging chute/draw which he showed me all on video.

I'm sorry but we're at an impasse here. Are long shots ideal? I don't think they ever are. To say "long shots are not hunting" then I guess everyone should be stalking game at 20 yards with a bow? If a hunter feels comfortable with the shot and expects it to be fatal with recovery...just because it's at 300+ yds you just wave goodbye? Sheep, goat, and pronghorn hunters would love this logic.

You do your best to put as little distance between you and the animal as possible but you should also have the ability to maximize an opportunity that you feel comfortable with and will still recover the animal.

I should also add that this isn't even a gleam in my eye. I'm realistically talking years between putting together a proper rifle, putting in the range time (we have up to 600 yds here) and then logistically planning a hunt.

I've killed elk past 500 yards in my 20s with a 270 Win loaded with 150g Partitions at 3000 fps (not far from 7mm Mag factory). Killed lost more at 400 yards. Typically our shots were either inside 30 yards our past 300 yards. All DIY (no guide) and lost no animals. Used to shoot a lot, 90g HPBTs at 3400 yards for prairie dogs out to 300 yards. Don't shoot as much anymore so limit my shots to 400 yards and under.

As far as dangerous game goes I agree with with fourfive8. I wouldn't shoot a grizzly past 50 yards unless he was a world record, 10 yards is better :) Got my last one at 13 yards.
 

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